Torsion Spring Clarification

[Cannon]

This is something I have been meaning to point out for a while.  

The classic "right hand" grippers that we all know and love have left-wound springs.  

I believe it was the release of IronMind's "Left-Turn" grippers that really muddied this up, but those grippers actually have right-wound springs.  

This terminology is probably impossible to correct at this point, but I thought I'd give it a shot.  It would make us all sound more informed.  And I've seen more discussion about it lately since some of the Grip Genie grippers curiously ended up with right-wound springs.  

Here is a graphic from a popular spring manufacturer to drive the point home:

 

 

I'm not sure if it's a good substitute, but given that a gripper will generally have a left-wound spring, that could be referred to as REGULAR.  Then the less common right-wound grippers like "Left-Turn" could be referred to as REVERSE.  In the industry that wouldn't mean anything because no spring is a certain way by default, but it's certainly true in our sport.  

Right-hand REGULAR grippers have left-wound springs.

Left-hand REVERSE grippers have right-wound springs.  

 

 

 

[Fist of Fury]

Right hand & Left hand grippers is the best terminology in my opinion.

[Mike Rinderle]

17 hours ago, Cannon said:

This is something I have been meaning to point out for a while.  

The classic "right hand" grippers that we all know and love have left-wound springs.  

I believe it was the release of IronMind's "Left-Turn" grippers that really muddied this up, but those grippers actually have right-wound springs.  

This terminology is probably impossible to correct at this point, but I thought I'd give it a shot.  It would make us all sound more informed.  And I've seen more discussion about it lately since some of the Grip Genie grippers curiously ended up with right-wound springs.  

Here is a graphic from a popular spring manufacturer to drive the point home:

 

 

I'm not sure if it's a good substitute, but given that a gripper will generally have a left-wound spring, that could be referred to as REGULAR.  Then the less common right-wound grippers like "Left-Turn" could be referred to as REVERSE.  In the industry that wouldn't mean anything because no spring is a certain way by default, but it's certainly true in our sport.  

Right-hand REGULAR grippers have left-wound springs.

Left-hand REVERSE grippers have right-wound springs.  

 

 

 

Has anyone ever done an actual study to see if it makes a hill of beans difference which way it is wound or whether the dog leg is in the fingers or palm?  Or is it all a mental thing and tradition?  Just wondering.  Back when I was doing grippers a lot, I would close my eyes and have my wife hand me my #3 and do a close.    I'd repeat this about 20 times, with her randomly handing me the gripper with the dog leg oriented different ways.  I kept my eyes closed the whole time so I never saw which way the dog leg was facing.  I could never tell the difference.  I came to the conclusion that the dog leg thing was a myth (at least for me).  I often wonder if the direction of the wind is also a myth.  It seems like it would have an affect, but after the dog leg thing, I would like some actual proof.  I don't know that I have ever tried a gripper with a right wind, so I have no frame of reference.

[Fist of Fury]

@Mike Rinderle, the "dog" leg thing is a completely different thing. I agree, I can't feel any difference. They way the spring is wound is a completely different story. Buy an Ironmind Left-Turn and try for yourself. Some people say they can't feel any difference. To me that's completely alien. For me it's a huuuuuuuuge difference.

[Mike Rinderle]

51 minutes ago, Fist of Fury said:

@Mike Rinderle, the "dog" leg thing is a completely different thing. I agree, I can't feel any difference. They way the spring is wound is a completely different story. Buy an Ironmind Left-Turn and try for yourself. Some people say they can't feel any difference. To me that's completely alien. For me it's a huuuuuuuuge difference.

I try as hard as humanly possible to not give Ironmind any of my money.  I'll take your word for it.  I will say, that a regular gripper doesn't feel any different in my left hand than it does in my right.  At the end of the day, you are bringing the ends of the extended spring together in the middle no matter which way it is turned.  But like I said, I have absolutely no experience with the right turned springs, so i will leave it to those that do. 

I was just curious because people used to claim the dog leg made a big difference.  I have found in my 52 trips around the sun that if you believe something will make a difference... it will.  I'd be interested to see someone actually conduct a blind study to see if they could tell the difference.  Two grippers of the exact same make with the same RGC.  Blindfold up and see how accurate you could be at picking which is which after 50 random attempts.  We might be surprised to find that it makes a huge difference, or it makes no difference at all and is just a good marketing gimmick to sell more grippers to those that believe it does. 

By the way, even though I know the dog leg thing is just a myth, you better believe that I always have the straight leg in my palm.  HAHAHAHA

Edited April 1, 2019 by Mike Rinderle

[Fist of Fury]

1 hour ago, Mike Rinderle said:

I try as hard as humanly possible to not give Ironmind any of my money.  I'll take your word for it.  I will say, that a regular gripper doesn't feel any different in my left hand than it does in my right.  At the end of the day, you are bringing the ends of the extended spring together in the middle no matter which way it is turned.  But like I said, I have absolutely no experience with the right turned springs, so i will leave it to those that do. 

I was just curious because people used to claim the dog leg made a big difference.  I have found in my 52 trips around the sun that if you believe something will make a difference... it will.  I'd be interested to see someone actually conduct a blind study to see if they could tell the difference.  Two grippers of the exact same make with the same RGC.  Blindfold up and see how accurate you could be at picking which is which after 50 random attempts.  We might be surprised to find that it makes a huge difference, or it makes no difference at all and is just a good marketing gimmick to sell more grippers to those that believe it does. 

By the way, even though I know the dog leg thing is just a myth, you better believe that I always have the straight leg in my palm.  HAHAHAHA

I never felt any difference either with the dog leg. First time I heard the phrase was in Paul Knight's setting video.

So you don't find inverted closes easier in left hand, compared to normal closes? I did when I first started grippers and I never understod why until I tried the IM LT grippers. However inverting a gripper isn't really a fair comparison since it's actually a slightly different excersise. 

[jchapman]

The wind of the gripper makes a difference in each hand, depending on if you are fighting the wind of the spring (more lateral force to overcome) or going with the wind.

[Mike Rinderle]

3 minutes ago, jchapman said:

The wind of the gripper makes a difference in each hand, depending on if you are fighting the wind of the spring (more lateral force to overcome) or going with the wind.

That's definitely the theory.  Has anyone done a blind test?  From a purely physics standpoint, I can't see where the force needed to touch the handles would be greater or less depending on the wind of the spring.  A left turn or right turn with an rgc of 130 both take 130 lbs to close.  Both fight the wind as you are struggling to touch the handles together.  That is why the top of the spring opens up when you close a gripper.

Look I'm not saying it isn't true, but unless someone does an actual blind study on it... it's bigfoot and the loch ness monster.  Maybe they're out there but show me the proof.  Are they really harder or do we just believe they are harder, which makes them harder?

[Mike Rinderle]

29 minutes ago, Fist of Fury said:

I never felt any difference either with the dog leg. First time I heard the phrase was in Paul Knight's setting video.

So you don't find inverted closes easier in left hand, compared to normal closes? I did when I first started grippers and I never understod why until I tried the IM LT grippers. However inverting a gripper isn't really a fair comparison since it's actually a slightly different excersise. 

Nope.  And any gripper I don't have to set feels exactly the same in my right or left hand.  I just suck at setting a gripper in my left because I never work on it.  But everything up to my easy #3 always felt the same.

[bdckr]

32 minutes ago, Mike Rinderle said:

Nope.  And any gripper I don't have to set feels exactly the same in my right or left hand.  I just suck at setting a gripper in my left because I never work on it.  But everything up to my easy #3 always felt the same.

I've never seen it explained like this, but this is what has always made sense to me.

Left turn spring grippers are easier in the right hand because of increased stability against the hypothenar eminence (pinky pad).  It's the same advantage you can feel with a heavier gripper when you use the opposite hand's thumb to stabilize the palm side handle.

If you pick up a gripper and look at it from the top down, and line up the top handle with your axis of vision like this:

https://imgur.com/a/yEpeolN

you can see that the bottom handle, which should be sitting in your palm, would be

angling into your hypothenar eminence and getting more traction if it's in your right hand, and 

angling away from your hypothenar eminence on your left hand.  It's more pronounced the bigger the wire size (that's a 2.5 in the picture).

For that same reason, adjustable grippers like the Vulcan and RB that do not use torsion springs are exactly the same in either hand.

[jchapman]

59 minutes ago, Mike Rinderle said:

That's definitely the theory.  Has anyone done a blind test?  From a purely physics standpoint, I can't see where the force needed to touch the handles would be greater or less depending on the wind of the spring.  A left turn or right turn with an rgc of 130 both take 130 lbs to close.  Both fight the wind as you are struggling to touch the handles together.  That is why the top of the spring opens up when you close a gripper.

Look I'm not saying it isn't true, but unless someone does an actual blind study on it... it's bigfoot and the loch ness monster.  Maybe they're out there but show me the proof.  Are they really harder or do we just believe they are harder, which makes them harder?

I've only used a right wound gripper once, years ago (it was an RB, by the way).  It felt much more comfortable and easier to close in my left hand.  In fact, I have never felt a gripper like that in my left hand, before or since.  But, it was not a blind test.

[Mike Rinderle]

42 minutes ago, bdckr said:

I've never seen it explained like this, but this is what has always made sense to me.

Left turn spring grippers are easier in the right hand because of increased stability against the hypothenar eminence (pinky pad).  It's the same advantage you can feel with a heavier gripper when you use the opposite hand's thumb to stabilize the palm side handle.

If you pick up a gripper and look at it from the top down, and line up the top handle with your axis of vision like this:

https://imgur.com/a/yEpeolN

you can see that the bottom handle, which should be sitting in your palm, would be

angling into your hypothenar eminence and getting more traction if it's in your right hand, and 

angling away from your hypothenar eminence on your left hand.  It's more pronounced the bigger the wire size (that's a 2.5 in the picture).

For that same reason, adjustable grippers like the Vulcan and RB that do not use torsion springs are exactly the same in either hand.

Seems to make sense but so do Ancient Aliens when I watch the History Channel. Lol

It probably is true, but I've seen so many myths busted over the years that I would want to see a blind test before I 100% buy in.  If somebody could pick out the left vs right >80% of the time on 50 or 100 blind squeezes then we would know.  

Edited April 1, 2019 by Mike Rinderle

[Fist of Fury]

@Mike Rinderle, pretty bold statements from you when you haven't even tried one.

 

[Mike Rinderle]

Just now, Fist of Fury said:

@Mike Rinderle, pretty bold statements from you when you haven't even tried one.

 

What's bold about saying it is probably true but I'd like to see it proven?  Lol.  I'm agreeing it makes sense.  I'm on the side of the masses.  You know what else everyone agreed on in the early 70s?  That we were well into the next ice age.  Now supposedly we're all going to burn to a crisp.  

Anecdotal evidence, like eyewitness testimony, is the weakest evidence in the world.  Odds are, it probably is true, even though my anecdotal evidence is that there isn't a different feel for me in my left hand than in my right with a left turn gripper.  

Not bold at all, just curious.

[Mike Rinderle]

Honestly, I'm a science geek.  I think it would be a cool experiment.   Tough thing would be to get a left and a right with the same rgc.  

[Cannon]

10 hours ago, Mike Rinderle said:

Has anyone ever done an actual study to see if it makes a hill of beans difference which way it is wound or whether the dog leg is in the fingers or palm?  Or is it all a mental thing and tradition?

I can tell you for sure that dogleg doesn’t matter as far as ratings. 

And for me personally, I can’t tell a difference in “smoothness of closing” or anything from spring wind direction.  Many others say they can. 

[Adam Juncker]

I've had a few Left turn #3's and and #2.  I used to think I could feel a difference during the set but now @Mike Rinderle has cast doubt on my entire belief system including the ancient aliens.  

[David_wigren]

I think the simplest way to prove it is to just take a gripper, close it with your right hand and measure how wide the top of the coil will flare out. Then take the same gripper and measure it again when closing it with your left hand. You'll notice that the coil will actually widen more when closing it with your left hand. In effect, that means that in able for this to happen, the ends of the spring need to be twisted inwards against itself. This will cause extra friction which makes the gripper harder to close with your left hand.

[Mike Rinderle]

Here's some science from Tommy Jennings.  Definitely seems like it would make a difference if this is happening. 

 

[Anthony C.]

I'm a simpleton small town boy and am getting confused with all the fancypants terminology...which are we arguing in this thread?

1. A regular torsion spring gripper, say COC 3, makes no difference in feel if you are closing it with the dogleg in your palm, or dogleg in your fingers

Or

2. The Ironmind "Left Turn Gripper," reverse wound, and black handles, makes no difference in feel if you are using it in your right hand?

If it is the latter, I can confirm that the left turn gripper is definitely WAY easier for me to set in my left hand, compared to a regular torsion spring gripper, and feels harder to set in my right hand. As in, I have a left turn coc 2 and a regular coc 2 of pretty much the identical RGC rating and the left turn feels very awkward to set in my right hand.

 

Again, when I say left turn gripper, i mean the actual left turn gripper that Ironmind makes. As in, it is called the "Left Turn" Gripper.

Edited April 2, 2019 by Anthony C.

[Mike Rinderle]

[Cannon]

2 hours ago, Anthony C. said:

I'm a simpleton small town boy and am getting confused with all the fancypants terminology...which are we arguing in this thread?

1. A regular torsion spring gripper, say COC 3, makes no difference in feel if you are closing it with the dogleg in your palm, or dogleg in your fingers

Or

2. The Ironmind "Left Turn Gripper," reverse wound, and black handles, makes no difference in feel if you are using it in your right hand?

If it is the latter, I can confirm that the left turn gripper is definitely WAY easier for me to set in my left hand, compared to a regular torsion spring gripper, and feels harder to set in my right hand. As in, I have a left turn coc 2 and a regular coc 2 of pretty much the identical RGC rating and the left turn feels very awkward to set in my right hand.

 

Again, when I say left turn gripper, i mean the actual left turn gripper that Ironmind makes. As in, it is called the "Left Turn" Gripper.

I started the thread to try and correct the notion that "left-turn" grippers have left-hand springs.  They actually have right-hand springs.  That is all.

This thing took on a life of its own after that.

[FrankSobotka]

See, this is why I don’t train grippers. (It’s totally this and not because I absolutely suck at them) 

[Mike Rinderle]

1 hour ago, Cannon said:

I started the thread to try and correct the notion that "left-turn" grippers have left-hand springs.  They actually have right-hand springs.  That is all.

This thing took on a life of its own after that.

Yea, sorry about that.  I blame the road map.  Always use a LEFT TURN gripper at Albuquerque. 

 

[Anthony C.]

8 minutes ago, Mike Rinderle said:

Yea, sorry about that.  I blame the road map.  Always use a LEFT TURN gripper at Albuquerque. 

 

Lol Mike.