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Eric Roussin

2019 International King Kong Grip Challenge

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Climber028
7 hours ago, Joseph Sullivan said:

Excellent call. You are 100% correct on the rowing the weight thing but don’t get the lift. 😂👍🏻But lift it an inch sumo and you good, because you’re standing up more. 

For solid implements like dumbbells or block weights I really like platform lifts, nice and easy to judge and even fun to watch. 

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Andrew P

The lifts will be to a height and the heights will depend on the event.

I've run enough contests both to lockout and to a crossbar to know that I'll always use a crossbar if it's possible. 

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Mike Rinderle
2 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

We arent even remotely testing posterior chain, considering how light the weights are.

besides, im opposed to this logic across the board. How ridiculous would it be if a respectable powerlifting org decided that straps are allowed on all deadlifts because “we are testing posterior chain, not grip”?

or “from now on instead of squats, we will contest leg presses on the leg press machine, because we want to see how strong your legs are, and not anything else.”

Jussayin

Fair enough.  Bad choice of words.  My point still stands though.  With lockout, you could row an implement 3 feet off the ground and it is a no lift, but go sumo and lock it out a centimeter off the ground and it is good.  I would say the row certainly tests your grip ability more than a 1cm lockout and we are testing girp... no?

Honestly, I'm in favor of whatever makes it easiest on the promoters.  I'm cool with either, but I think there is way more room for crappy micro lifts on lockout events (with a loading pin) than with a cross bar set to a reasonable height.  But I could be wrong.  I'm getting older and dumber by the day.  :laugh

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acorn
2 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

Easily fixed by shortening the loading pins tho. Id like to see this cross bar thing be contested in dramatic form, like how the lockout is described. Shorten the loading pins to 6”, then lift to a 3” cross bar. 

that would be great. The more hunched over everyone is, the better. Right?

🤣

Better yet, i think what should eventually happen is grip comps should move to consisting only of TNS gripper closes, and squeezing some form of dyno in the pinch position. Only those 2 events contested. And maybe even sit down on comfy couches or something while we do it?

You know... so no one is feeling like they have to use any muscles besides the ones that control the hand.

 

 

 

😆😆🤣🤣🤣

 

MMMMmmmm, comfy couches. Taking notes over here.

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Vinnie
On 2/20/2019 at 10:17 AM, Joseph Sullivan said:

I have always agreed it should be  a lift to lockout. I never do a partial lift on anything, unless it’s in the contest, and even then I try to lift it all the way, but if it has to be crossbar, it should all be to the same height. If that is what it’s going to be, make it one height, whether it be 6,8, or whatever inch it need to be to be seen as legitimate. 

For me, lockout usually won't reach the cross bar.  So if it is a one hand flask or blockbuster to a cross bar,  or hub or novelty lift like key pinch where the weights are not crazy, I will just shrug my shoulder up or row it and hit it -- but if it is a two hand napalm or something, no way I can shrug up or row 350 pounds, so I have to stand up on stuff which reduces what I can pull off the ground because now I am reaching down and basically deadlifting something that really is supposed to be starting a little higher.  Not really complaining, just saying that I was confused at people saying cross bar is too easy or lets people avoid lockout, because lockout sounds a lot easier to me than cross bar.

Edited by Vinnie

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Squeezus

The crossbar heights for BSS have been tested by numerous people around and below 5'. Using a 12" pin and a quick release pin attachment (not a large carabiner), a person would have to be extremely short (54" or less) or a child to be unable to achieve the 7.5" lift requirement for the Flask and DubHub. 

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Jedd Johnson
9 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

Sounds like a great case against crossbar to me. 

More evidence that crossbars aren’t as fair as they claim to be. 

I mean really, it sounds to me like crossbars are thing because big guys dont think its fair they have to pull further to lockout than a smaller guy. 

Well... what about guys like Vinnie??..

jussayin

Not sure how after all the discussion that has taken place, you could narrow it down to that.  

The Lockout issue comes down to one main thing: inconsistent judging. 

To the contrary, Cross bars are extremely consistent. In Vinnie's case, he'll be permitted to stand on a box/platform, just like he and Chris Andrade did at Cupid's Nightmare and how Jerome Bloom has done in multiple European competitions.  Easy fix.

 

 

 

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Vinnie
Just now, Squeezus said:

The crossbar heights for BSS have been tested by numerous people around and below 5'. Using a 12" pin and a quick release pin attachment (not a large carabiner), a person would have to be extremely short (54" or less) or a child to be unable to achieve the 7.5" lift requirement for the Flask and DubHub. 

I might just be built funny, because I had cancer as a kid and the radiation treatments to my chest and abdomen stunted the growth of my torso (basically, I have my genetically determined arms and legs on a smaller torso).  It's just a couple of inches, but there you have the problem with reaching the cross bar.  I don't expect a change on my account, just noting that I think for me, lockout is easier than cross bar, and lets the lift remain connected to the motion and muscle flexion rather than creating a relatively different point for each contestant.  But I'm neither an expert nor a typical athlete, so I'm just chipping in my own two cents.  I'll go to all the comps I can whether cross bar or lockout is the norm.

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Vinnie
20 minutes ago, Jedd Johnson said:

To the contrary, Cross bars are extremely consistent. In Vinnie's case, he'll be permitted to stand on a box/platform, just like he and Chris Andrade did at Cupid's Nightmare and how Jerome Bloom has done in multiple European competitions.  Easy fix.

Well, on the 2 inch Napalm Nightmare I did 385 to lockout in training but on the really high platform available at Cupid's I did 325 and failed 345, also failed 345 on unstable stacked plates.  I doubt your handles were somehow inferior than the ones Anton and I bought from you.  So I am not sure it is that easy a fix.  If you were to say hey, if you are too short to hit the cross bar without rowing or shrugging (which should not be what is required for a grip lift), then you can bring your OWN platform at the height that lets you hit the cross bar, then I'd say, whoo hoo!  I like that idea.  I'd make one and leave it in my trunk for comps.

And anyway, I am in this for the training and the camaraderie, and to push myself toward strength and health, not necessarily to set records or win comps (although I will take what I can get of course).  What do you think of custom platforms for short guys?

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Jedd Johnson
5 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

This crossbar thing keeps getting more and more.... extra.. it seems. Ha

 

 crossbar is to lockout lifts what Tee ball is to baseball.

Good for you!  

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Chez

I think the NN is only event where I do see shorter guys struggle to hit the crossbar. It’s a combination of the weight and starting height. For every other event, the crossbar works well. 

The NN is more the exception than the norm. 

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Mike Rinderle

I still come back to the fact that anybody can turn a lockout lift on an implement that relies on a pin into a 1" lift with a wide sumo stance.  I may be thick in the head, but that seems to defeat the main purpose, which is testing grip strength.  

Like I said earlier, I'm good either way.  They haven't built a grip implement yet where my posterior chain was the weak link in lifting it.  I believe my placing would probably rise on lifts that are to lockout because of this.  Everything grip related is an easy pull to lockout for me.  Everything.   This isn't the case for everyone though, so I should probably be in the lockout camp.  Lol

I just think we are going to see a lot of < 1" lifts in comps if we go to lockout on everything.  And I don't think that's a good look for the sport.  We can discuss whether or not the crossbar heights are at the right heights, but that's a different discussion.

IMHO, with all the variables involved in a lockout lift: pin height, carabiner size, implement size, width of stance, etc. it seems to me that a cross bar is the closest we can come to a standardized lift that is easy to judge.  I'm not a huge fan of the optics of lifting to a cross bar either, but I like that better than the look of someone taking a wide stance and lifting the implement a cm off the ground at lockout.

The fact that our sport has so many events that rely on loading pins means neither camp is going to be super happy.

One other issue on the Euro: the way the weights are situated, it is a physical impossibility for some to perform a lockout with that implement.  And it is one of the Big 3 in grip.  I don't see any other way to contest a Euro lift without a cross bar.

Just my 7 cents.

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Jedd Johnson

Mike did it at Cupid's Nightmare just to do it.

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Eric Roussin
Just now, Jedd Johnson said:

Mike did it at Cupid's Nightmare just to do it.

I noticed that. It was a good way to prove his point.

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Chez

It would be even easier on the lighter lifts like the hub or stub etc 

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Mike Rinderle
16 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

Everybody keeps citing this but when exactly did it happen?? 

Name of lifter, the comp it happened, etc.?

i dont recall there ever being a time where there was any issue with how high or low a lockout was for someone in a comp. if someone can cite an incident where this happened, and the lifter in question didn’t deserve the lift, but got credit for it, lets hear it. Preferrably with video example please.

time to drop some names. Since everybody talks about that sack they have.

I don't know if it has happened, but it certainly would if we go to lockout.  Unless we set up some sort of minimum height, which now we are back to a cross bar.  At the latest comp, just for giggles, I did every lift to a lockout of 1" or less just to show it can be done without going super wide (warmups - not my actual lifts).  NN, BB, LBH, were all easy to get a very low lockout on without doing the Van Damme splits.  Literally locked out with the implement just breaking the ground.  If it is allowed in the rules at a contest, I will certainly do it.  Why wouldn't you? 

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Chez

I think it’s kind of an unwritten rule not to since it looks like shit. That’s why we don’t see extreme sumo in loading pin events but if it’s allowed eventually some will do it 

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Chez
16 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

If we are putting smaller guys on blocks to hit hight on the crossbar, then guess what, it STILL aint fair.

I think it’s only the NN though. I can’t think of another event were people use blocks

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Climber028
14 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

Also, what happened to the sacks? In the event someone did pull that kind of stunt, does the promoter and other competitors around them not have the duty to call it out?

A wide sumo stance isn't against the rules, so nothing to call out. It could be made a rule, but isn't currently.

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Nigel Blackburn
8 minutes ago, Chez said:

I think it’s only the NN though. I can’t think of another event were people use blocks

I have a feeling a few competitors might use blocks on the LBH at KKOG this year.

1) the implement itself is very high off the ground

2) In addition to the implement being relatively tall, a good numbers of competitors grab as close to the bottom on the taper as possible, which will create even more distance.

I don't really mind how the LBH will be contested, personally. I just know a lot of people may have trouble getting it to height if they don't practice and find out if they'll need plates or boxes.

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Chez
5 minutes ago, Nigel Blackburn said:

I have a feeling a few competitors might use blocks on the LBH at KKOG this year.

1) the implement itself is very high off the ground

2) In addition to the implement being relatively tall, a good numbers of competitors grab as close to the bottom on the taper as possible, which will create even more distance.

I don't really mind how the LBH will be contested, personally. I just know a lot of people may have trouble getting it to height if they don't practice and find out if they'll need plates or boxes.

Ya. I can see that. The LBH does have a high pick up height. On the flip side, we could see a very short competitor that would have to do a shrug to break ground with an implement like the LBH. My friend is 5’7 and he barely breaks ground at lockout with it and non sumo stance. There is no perfect way to make everyone happy 

Edited by Chez

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Climber028
8 minutes ago, Nigel Blackburn said:

I have a feeling a few competitors might use blocks on the LBH at KKOG this year.

1) the implement itself is very high off the ground

2) In addition to the implement being relatively tall, a good numbers of competitors grab as close to the bottom on the taper as possible, which will create even more distance.

I don't really mind how the LBH will be contested, personally. I just know a lot of people may have trouble getting it to height if they don't practice and find out if they'll need plates or boxes.

That last part is key. It's up to you to practice on boxes to find an optimal height if necessary, not the contest promoter.

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Mike Rinderle
21 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

Also, what happened to the sacks? In the event someone did pull that kind of stunt, does the promoter and other competitors around them not have the duty to call it out?

I wouldn't be the first to do it, but if someone else was doing it I certainly wouldn't put myself at a disadvantage in a comp.  Nor should anyone if it is allowed in the rules.  The only way around it would be to set a maximum sumo width, which would be harder to judge than anything unless you had people measuring your feet between each lift. 

Again, I personally like lifts to lockout, but because of the way many grip implements are set up, there is too much room to turn these into micro lifts. 

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Nigel Blackburn
5 minutes ago, Chez said:

Ya. I can see that. The LBH does have a high pick up height. On the flip side, we could see a very short competitor that would have to do a shrug to break ground with an implement like the LBH. My friend is 5’7 and he barely breaks ground at lockout with it and non sumo stance. There is no perfect way to make everyone happy 

Exactly! 

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Mike Rinderle
4 minutes ago, Chez said:

Ya. I can see that. The LBH does have a high pick up height. On the flip side, we could see a very short competitor that would have to do a shrug to break ground with an implement like the LBH. My friend is 5’7 and he barely breaks ground at lockout with it and non sumo stance. There is no perfect way to make everyone happy 

This. 

Until we can come up with a better mouse trap, I think we are probably stuck with crossbars as the most fair way to conduct the pin lifts.  However, anything like a blob or axle should always be loaded to a height or lifted to lockout. 

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