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Aleksandar Milosevic

Gripper advice

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slazbob
46 minutes ago, Paul Savage said:

With the heavier springs yes (though still has good carry over), with the lighter orange spring it's a lot more similar to coc so more specific. You can add in beyond the range clicker work if the close is an issue but there's more to closing big grippers than just gripper training (especially for wider sets, ccs cert etc) and honestly you don't need to do a huge amount of gripper training to get to coc #3. This is one mistake I made in the past was training grippers way too much.

I have my Vulcan filed and didn’t really get what I wanted out of it. But it has a place in grip work...helping your set and sweep. You can use it for speed at the close as well. I can’t agree about the no.3 not taking a lot of training; if you have a good base, then, yeah you can probably get it with a good program or plan. But most have to work hard at it.

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Paul Savage
1 hour ago, slazbob said:

I have my Vulcan filed and didn’t really get what I wanted out of it. But it has a place in grip work...helping your set and sweep. You can use it for speed at the close as well. I can’t agree about the no.3 not taking a lot of training; if you have a good base, then, yeah you can probably get it with a good program or plan. But most have to work hard at it.

I wasn't saying you don't have to work hard I was saying you don't have to do a lot of specific gripper training. A lot don't focus enough on full body training and just getting strong overall, and getting the base hand strength is really the key. A lot hammer away at the grippers but don't train much else, where as putting a 3 month plan of solid full body strength training together with a lot pinch and thickbar training (along with overhand deadlifts, bare handed rows and shrugs etc) would build the base up a lot more, and actually you can PB on grippers as soon as you come back but that's a thing a lot of people do is that they always go really heavy with grippers (heavy singles, negatives etc). I've found you really don't need to and it makes no logical sense either when you think it through. If I just do heavy singles on deadlift for a month will my deadlift go up? Yes, I'll definitely put up more weight baring injury, but did I get stronger? Or did I just get better at deadlifting? And would I keep putting bigger numbers up if I did this year round? No, because I'm just getting more practiced, not getting stronger, once im well practiced, I'm unlikely to see further progress, and infact I might get weaker and go backwards. This is no different with grippers, you need rep work with lighter grippers to gain muscle size and strength. Yes of course you need to do heavy singles at times but only when ready to peak, base building is where the real strength is built.

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jchapman
28 minutes ago, Paul Savage said:

I wasn't saying you don't have to work hard I was saying you don't have to do a lot of specific gripper training. A lot don't focus enough on full body training and just getting strong overall, and getting the base hand strength is really the key. A lot hammer away at the grippers but don't train much else, where as putting a 3 month plan of solid full body strength training together with a lot pinch and thickbar training (along with overhand deadlifts, bare handed rows and shrugs etc) would build the base up a lot more, and actually you can PB on grippers as soon as you come back but that's a thing a lot of people do is that they always go really heavy with grippers (heavy singles, negatives etc). I've found you really don't need to and it makes no logical sense either when you think it through. If I just do heavy singles on deadlift for a month will my deadlift go up? Yes, I'll definitely put up more weight baring injury, but did I get stronger? Or did I just get better at deadlifting? And would I keep putting bigger numbers up if I did this year round? No, because I'm just getting more practiced, not getting stronger, once im well practiced, I'm unlikely to see further progress, and infact I might get weaker and go backwards. This is no different with grippers, you need rep work with lighter grippers to gain muscle size and strength. Yes of course you need to do heavy singles at times but only when ready to peak, base building is where the real strength is built.

The dead lift to gripper analogy needs a little more work.  To generate more force in the dead lift, the body primarily calls upon more motor units.  It is a multijoint movement involving a lot of muscle mass.  Closing grippers is much more of a fine motor skill.  There are relatively few motor units involved, so in order to apply more force, the body increases the rate of impulse to the motor units.  This is often referred to as rate coding.  Gripper strength is much more dependent on developing the neural pathways, or skill development, than the dead lift.

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slazbob
1 hour ago, Paul Savage said:

I wasn't saying you don't have to work hard I was saying you don't have to do a lot of specific gripper training. A lot don't focus enough on full body training and just getting strong overall, and getting the base hand strength is really the key. A lot hammer away at the grippers but don't train much else, where as putting a 3 month plan of solid full body strength training together with a lot pinch and thickbar training (along with overhand deadlifts, bare handed rows and shrugs etc) would build the base up a lot more, and actually you can PB on grippers as soon as you come back but that's a thing a lot of people do is that they always go really heavy with grippers (heavy singles, negatives etc). I've found you really don't need to and it makes no logical sense either when you think it through. If I just do heavy singles on deadlift for a month will my deadlift go up? Yes, I'll definitely put up more weight baring injury, but did I get stronger? Or did I just get better at deadlifting? And would I keep putting bigger numbers up if I did this year round? No, because I'm just getting more practiced, not getting stronger, once im well practiced, I'm unlikely to see further progress, and infact I might get weaker and go backwards. This is no different with grippers, you need rep work with lighter grippers to gain muscle size and strength. Yes of course you need to do heavy singles at times but only when ready to peak, base building is where the real strength is built.

I personally only do light rep work for a healthy break...not to build mass in an area that doesn’t have much muscle. Sometimes we get in to a habit of hard singles and failure is always in our workouts...the rep work just gives some positive reinforcement and good feels. But make no mistake about it... we do the reps because the failure to close a gripper that you closed last workout makes you question your strength, your workouts, and your recovery. 

Overall body work will be helpful to anyone...but a guy who does nothing but grippers will beat a guy all day who focuses on other aspects. The hands want to hold on to things more than crush things...you have to make it a gripper hand. 

A lot of trainers try and have people change their workouts all the time to avoid plateaus, even if they don’t need it...I say do it till it fails you; allow your body to maximize time in a program so it gets the full benefits. If you get weaker from doing the same things, it’s boardom and a drop in motivation. IMO 

i don’t try to peak at anything...If I had to be at my best by a certain date I’d just train hard as much as I could....by peak, it means I can’t go any higher...and I don’t want to think that way.

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Aleksandar Milosevic
2 hours ago, Paul Savage said:

I wasn't saying you don't have to work hard I was saying you don't have to do a lot of specific gripper training. A lot don't focus enough on full body training and just getting strong overall, and getting the base hand strength is really the key. A lot hammer away at the grippers but don't train much else, where as putting a 3 month plan of solid full body strength training together with a lot pinch and thickbar training (along with overhand deadlifts, bare handed rows and shrugs etc) would build the base up a lot more, and actually you can PB on grippers as soon as you come back but that's a thing a lot of people do is that they always go really heavy with grippers (heavy singles, negatives etc). I've found you really don't need to and it makes no logical sense either when you think it through. If I just do heavy singles on deadlift for a month will my deadlift go up? Yes, I'll definitely put up more weight baring injury, but did I get stronger? Or did I just get better at deadlifting? And would I keep putting bigger numbers up if I did this year round? No, because I'm just getting more practiced, not getting stronger, once im well practiced, I'm unlikely to see further progress, and infact I might get weaker and go backwards. This is no different with grippers, you need rep work with lighter grippers to gain muscle size and strength. Yes of course you need to do heavy singles at times but only when ready to peak, base building is where the real strength is built.

Paul, I have to disagree. As someone who squatted 220 kg, benched 150 kg, and deadlifted 215 kg, it didn't help me one bit with grippers. If I don't train on my TSG gripper, I lose the ability to close it. The deadlift analogy is straight up bizzare. If I can just "get better" at grippers or deadlifting all the way to #3 or 300 kg, than so be it. How can you get better at a strength display, without actually getting stronger, provided that the technique is adequate (and that happens trough specific training). I agree with the base building part, most training done should be at a lower intensity, under 85%.

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Paul Savage
4 hours ago, Aleksandar Milosevic said:

Paul, I have to disagree. As someone who squatted 220 kg, benched 150 kg, and deadlifted 215 kg, it didn't help me one bit with grippers. If I don't train on my TSG gripper, I lose the ability to close it. The deadlift analogy is straight up bizzare. If I can just "get better" at grippers or deadlifting all the way to #3 or 300 kg, than so be it. How can you get better at a strength display, without actually getting stronger, provided that the technique is adequate (and that happens trough specific training). I agree with the base building part, most training done should be at a lower intensity, under 85%.

Because you simply get better at maxing, cns gets better adapted etc

I tried guys haha 

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Hopefully
8 hours ago, Aleksandar Milosevic said:

Paul, I have to disagree. As someone who squatted 220 kg, benched 150 kg, and deadlifted 215 kg, it didn't help me one bit with grippers. If I don't train on my TSG gripper, I lose the ability to close it. The deadlift analogy is straight up bizzare. If I can just "get better" at grippers or deadlifting all the way to #3 or 300 kg, than so be it. How can you get better at a strength display, without actually getting stronger, provided that the technique is adequate (and that happens trough specific training). I agree with the base building part, most training done should be at a lower intensity, under 85%.

His point is basically that you are just optimising your current potential without actually increasing it. Claiming you arent getting stronger is of course wrong though. Strength is very movement specific anyway. With that said you wont increase your bench by 40lbs by 'getting better' at it and not see any carry over to other press and push movements. 

Also in regards to grippers there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that heavy singles or maxing out is an extremely effective method for getting stronger with them. I max out 3 times a week currently and I am getting stronger all the time. Maybe I'll hit a massive wall eventually but I havent yet. And if that wall then is beyond the #3 cert, I don't really care. 

Edited by Hopefully
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devinhoo

I’m in about the same spot. I was considering getting a GHP 5 and 6, getting them rated, then seeing where the gaps are. 

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Aleksandar Milosevic

Getting better at maxing = getting stronger. It's literally getting better at displaying maximal strength, which you cannot do if you're not getting stronger.

The dilemma is settled, I ordered the 3 gripper bundle + silver bullet from IronMind. I got the 1.5, 2.5 and 3. Now I just need to persevere.

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Aleksandar Milosevic

And yes, thank you all for contributing!

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jchapman
22 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

Maxing is not a training tool. Maxing is nothing more than a display of your max strength. You dont get strong by maxing. Lol

however, they do serve as a great way to determine %’s in your programming.

you get strong by time under tension. Im going to assume that instead of max efforts, your actually referring to heavy singles. I only agree with heavy singles if you do a lot of them in a session. Then what does that still translate to? More time under tension. 

I also dont agree with the “it doesnt work for everybody.” Line. Thats bs. We aint talking diet. Time under tension will work for everyone. They just have to do it. 

How many years did you stick with doing reps like Laine did before you gave up?

Time under tension is really just an oversimplified way to talk about volume.  Volume is only one overload variable that can be used to stimulate adaptation.  

Another very important variable is intensity (or load, weight, etc).  You could spend 5:00 of TUT holding a Trainer closed, but that won’t be the most efficient way to become a #3 closer.  At some point, you would need to spend time closing stronger grippers, at the expense of overall TUT.

Volume and intensity, considered together, will be a more powerful way to build strength.

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BeccaRoberts
10 hours ago, Hopefully said:

His point is basically that you are just optimising your current potential without actually increasing it. Claiming you arent getting stronger is of course wrong though. Strength is very movement specific anyway. With that said you wont increase your bench by 40lbs by 'getting better' at it and not see any carry over to other press and push movements. 

Also in regards to grippers there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that heavy singles or maxing out is an extremely effective method for getting stronger with them. I max out 3 times a week currently and I am getting stronger all the time. Maybe I'll hit a massive wall eventually but I havent yet. And if that wall then is beyond the #3 cert, I don't really care. 

Pauls not wrong, youre not really getting stronger by lifting more weight through heavy singles, youre just getting more skilled at that movement and your cns gets better firing for a max. 

His methods and programming do work. Hes not saying you should never do heavy singles, but theres a time and a place for it. 

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BeccaRoberts
27 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Time under tension is really just an oversimplified way to talk about volume.  Volume is only one overload variable that can be used to stimulate adaptation.  

Another very important variable is intensity (or load, weight, etc).  You could spend 5:00 of TUT holding a Trainer closed, but that won’t be the most efficient way to become a #3 closer.  At some point, you would need to spend time closing stronger grippers, at the expense of overall TUT.

Volume and intensity, considered together, will be a more powerful way to build strength.

Yes you would need to close heavier grippers than a trainer, but that doesnt mean that a trainer could not be very useful. 

After my shoulder operation Paul put me on a gripper specific routine and it was a lot of high reps (20+) where i did actually start with the trainer and the heaviest gripper i went to was around a #1.5. This got me to doing 10 no set reps on the coc#2 when my previous best on it was 2 reps and i also ccs'd a hard #2.5 basically on a whim. 

This wouldnt be all that Paul would recommend and programme and he would certainly recommend going heavier and eventually to singles (i ended up doing competitions so couldnt finish the programme, otherwise im sure i would have ccs'd the #3) but it clearly shows that high repetitions on relatively light grippers can get you a lot stronger.

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devinhoo
4 minutes ago, BeccaRoberts said:

Yes you would need to close heavier grippers than a trainer, but that doesnt mean that a trainer could not be very useful. 

After my shoulder operation Paul put me on a gripper specific routine and it was a lot of high reps (20+) where i did actually start with the trainer and the heaviest gripper i went to was around a #1.5. This got me to doing 10 no set reps on the coc#2 when my previous best on it was 2 reps and i also ccs'd a hard #2.5 basically on a whim. 

This wouldnt be all that Paul would recommend and programme and he would certainly recommend going heavier and eventually to singles (i ended up doing competitions so couldnt finish the programme, otherwise im sure i would have ccs'd the #3) but it clearly shows that high repetitions on relatively light grippers can get you a lot stronger.

Woah. that's fascinating. I guess there is really more to be said about hypertrophy for strength when it comes to grip than I thought. Were you also doing a periodization style program along with that, or did you just stick to high volume while also slowly increasing the resistance?

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jchapman
14 minutes ago, BeccaRoberts said:

Yes you would need to close heavier grippers than a trainer, but that doesnt mean that a trainer could not be very useful. 

After my shoulder operation Paul put me on a gripper specific routine and it was a lot of high reps (20+) where i did actually start with the trainer and the heaviest gripper i went to was around a #1.5. This got me to doing 10 no set reps on the coc#2 when my previous best on it was 2 reps and i also ccs'd a hard #2.5 basically on a whim. 

This wouldnt be all that Paul would recommend and programme and he would certainly recommend going heavier and eventually to singles (i ended up doing competitions so couldnt finish the programme, otherwise im sure i would have ccs'd the #3) but it clearly shows that high repetitions on relatively light grippers can get you a lot stronger.

We agree.  You did exactly what I was talking about, managing volume and intensity together to get stronger.

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BeccaRoberts
9 minutes ago, devinhoo said:

Woah. that's fascinating. I guess there is really more to be said about hypertrophy for strength when it comes to grip than I thought. Were you also doing a periodization style program along with that, or did you just stick to high volume while also slowly increasing the 

Would be best for Paul to answer this, i'll ask him to 

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Hopefully
34 minutes ago, BeccaRoberts said:

Pauls not wrong, youre not really getting stronger by lifting more weight through heavy singles, youre just getting more skilled at that movement and your cns gets better firing for a max. 

His methods and programming do work. Hes not saying you should never do heavy singles, but theres a time and a place for it. 

He isn't exactly wrong, but he uses the wrong way to describe what he is talking about in my opinion. Getting more skilled at a movement and making your cns adapt to that movement is exactly what getting stronger means. It is a simplified way of describing it but to a large extent that is the definition of getting stronger. Strength is largely a skill. 

What Paul means is that it is necessary to build up your muscle mass, and doing so everywhere, so that you have something to build that strength upon. Without sufficient muscle mass you can only go so far. You will reach a point where you need to get bigger. But that is not strength. It is potential for strength. 

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Paul Savage
17 minutes ago, devinhoo said:

Woah. that's fascinating. I guess there is really more to be said about hypertrophy for strength when it comes to grip than I thought. Were you also doing a periodization style program along with that, or did you just stick to high volume while also slowly increasing the resistance?

It's worth noting that there was some seemingly little things in there that make a big difference like working mostly beyond the range, a lot of chalkless training, big emphasis on building up the thumb pad etc That said, it was done in a way that if you can do x amount of reps for x amount of sets then you can move up a gripper (though that doesn't need to happen automatically, no need to rush things, the longer you base build the bigger the peak will be). I actually had her doing a gripper less than a trainer at first and a lot of it was very high reps. In the end she actually ended up doing a gripper harder than coc #2 for 10 no set chalkless so it was very successful especially considering she only got about half way through it (soooo many comps with becca doing both strongwoman and gripsport). 

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Hopefully
41 minutes ago, BeccaRoberts said:

Yes you would need to close heavier grippers than a trainer, but that doesnt mean that a trainer could not be very useful. 

After my shoulder operation Paul put me on a gripper specific routine and it was a lot of high reps (20+) where i did actually start with the trainer and the heaviest gripper i went to was around a #1.5. This got me to doing 10 no set reps on the coc#2 when my previous best on it was 2 reps and i also ccs'd a hard #2.5 basically on a whim. 

This wouldnt be all that Paul would recommend and programme and he would certainly recommend going heavier and eventually to singles (i ended up doing competitions so couldnt finish the programme, otherwise im sure i would have ccs'd the #3) but it clearly shows that high repetitions on relatively light grippers can get you a lot stronger.

Also, ironically, you are mostly talking about cns adaptation here. 

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Aleksandar Milosevic
2 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

Maxing is not a training tool. Maxing is nothing more than a display of your max strength. You dont get strong by maxing. Lol

however, they do serve as a great way to determine %’s in your programming.

you get strong by time under tension. Im going to assume that instead of max efforts, your actually referring to heavy singles. I only agree with heavy singles if you do a lot of them in a session. Then what does that still translate to? More time under tension. 

I also dont agree with the “it doesnt work for everybody.” Line. Thats bs. We aint talking diet. Time under tension will work for everyone. They just have to do it. 

How many years did you stick with doing reps like Laine did before you gave up?

Who called it a training tool? Are there different types of time under tension? Is time under a 90%+ load still time under tension? Where's the exact border where "maxing" starts and time under tension ends? Can the methods be combined? Can you do max effort followed by lower intensity work? Can the exercises that you max on be changed weekly, so the monthly cycle has 4 different exercises which lead to same goal but use different angles, range of motion etc.? And yes, saying it doesn't work for everyone is bs, because it doesn't work for ANYONE if you don't translate it to maximal effort, which is the only thing that counts, right? I will not discuss Laine's program here, because he gave it to me and told me not to spread it, but it contained both volume work and maximal work. And I'm not going to stick even a week with something that gave me less results than what I'm doing or have done.

I really didn't want to involve myself writing about programming here, because that wasn't the subject, but I'm being provoked by your writing style. As I've said, I don't need help about programming nor any training advice that I don't request and I try not to give any where it isn't requested, despite me being an actual, college educated master's degree strength and conditioning coach.

Every single person deserves an individual approach, and the methods used are determined by that person's morphology, physiological attributes, age, out-of-training habits, time, goals etc. There is no "one size fits all" program that's 95%+ OPTIMAL AND EFFICIENT.

And diet is the most exact thing there is and it boils down to calories in - calories out, nothing more, nothing less, when we're talking about individuals with normal hormone functioning. The way you manipulate the calories is your choice.

CNS adaptations matter less and less the more you're accustomed to the movement, if we're talking about muscle firing patterns, % of activated muscle tissue etc., and you just need to get stronger with adequate programming.

This whole discussion about training to me is like me teaching my car mechanic about cars because I changed my oil a couple of times by myself and know how to change a tire.


 

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BeccaRoberts
28 minutes ago, Aleksandar Milosevic said:

This whole discussion about training to me is like me teaching my car mechanic about cars because I changed my oil a couple of times by myself and know how to change a tire.


 

Holding a degree in strength and conditioning and having an indepth grip knowledge are 2 different things. 

If you want to look at things in this way, Paul is the mechanic here. Its not just that, he might just be the best mechanic in the world.

You said in your original post you can do the #2 for 1-3 reps right hand and not with your left yet. Paul has done the #4 with fairly wide sets with both hands and 3 reps with with right hand. He has also done it from originally not being able to close a #1 which is maybe the best progress any male has ever made on grippers. 

Ontop of this he has coached me to having the strongest female crush grip in the world and has only taken a few years to do it. 

So i dont think its fair that youre insinuating that he knows very little about this subject. It would make a lot more sense if you were to listen and take more note from the likes of him and Laine. (No programme is going to give you results in a week, thats insane). 

 

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king crusher
16 minutes ago, BeccaRoberts said:

Holding a degree in strength and conditioning and having an indepth grip knowledge are 2 different things. 

If you want to look at things in this way, Paul is the mechanic here. Its not just that, he might just be the best mechanic in the world.

You said in your original post you can do the #2 for 1-3 reps right hand and not with your left yet. Paul has done the #4 with fairly wide sets with both hands and 3 reps with with right hand. He has also done it from originally not being able to close a #1 which is maybe the best progress any male has ever made on grippers. 

Ontop of this he has coached me to having the strongest female crush grip in the world and has only taken a few years to do it. 

So i dont think its fair that youre insinuating that he knows very little about this subject. It would make a lot more sense if you were to listen and take more note from the likes of him and Laine. (No programme is going to give you results in a week, thats insane). 

 

Going from not closing a 1 to repping a 4 is insane. Wow

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Aleksandar Milosevic

We're not on the same page, I was talking to Tommy, who I quoted. We're talking about general principles of strength here, which apply to all body parts. I've seen Paul's videos of you and him training, and he knows his stuff, it's just that his verbal skills don't do him any good in explaining what he wants to say, and I believe it's caused by not knowing the correct training terminology (that's where formal education comes in). 

Now I have to be brutally honest. I don't care about a female sports that have a male counterpart, especially strength sports, and especially grip. And we need to be real here, how many women are competing, and are you an average woman, just by birth? As far as I understand your weight is 175 kilograms, heavier than most guys at WSM, maybe I'm wrong. So you're not really the standard to be measured against. I know this might seam blunt or whatever, but I mean no insult. I honestly think that you can be the strongest woman in the world in any discipline you choose, just based on your God given qualities. How many women are on this forum, and in grip sport in general? 

I listen to and respect everyone's opinion, but I don't like when someone gives me advice that I didn't ask for, and I think that's the case with the majority of people.  

Usain Bolt is the best sprinter that walked the Earth, do you think he's the world's biggest expert on strength and power training for sprinters, or even skill training? Performance =/= training knowledge. I'm not putting Paul in this category,  I'm just making a point.

My gripper performance is the result of my mental and physical effort invested into training them - about 3 hours total in my life, and that's generous. 

And I didn't form my sentence correct about the sticking with something - I did the entire program Laine gave me and advanced 2.5 kilograms on the RT, while raising my rep records considerably. If I do a program and put my full effort into it and not gain satisfactory results, I'm not going to do it again, even for a week. That's why when I was in powerlifting I ran Mr. Boris Sheiko's programs for 52 weeks, because they worked. 

Again, I don't like the way this thread is going, and I made it to get the advice about buying equipment and I've reached my answer, so the thread can be closed.

I wish everyone here all the best in their training and life, and thank you all again!

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Paul Savage
6 minutes ago, Aleksandar Milosevic said:

Now I have to be brutally honest. I don't care about a female sports that have a male counterpart, especially strength sports, and especially grip. And we need to be real here, how many women are competing, and are you an average woman, just by birth? As far as I understand your weight is 175 kilograms, heavier than most guys at WSM, maybe I'm wrong. So you're not really the standard to be measured against. I know this might seam blunt or whatever, but I mean no insult. I honestly think that you can be the strongest woman in the world in any discipline you choose, just based on your God given qualities.

It's very easy to think of something as genetic and god given, and I know all about that, I've trained and competed with some absolute freaks, including wsm competitors.

Do genetics play a role in sports? Absolutely, to what degree? To a massive agree. That said, Becca doesn't fall into that super genetic freak category, actually not even close. Yeah she's got height and a huge frame and that gives her the 'potential' to add more muscle than others however being natural this isn't an easy process for a woman but more importantly she's very much a normal human being (just bigger haha). She wasn't 'born strong' like pretty much all the guys at world strongest man, she struggled with 60kg deadlifts and 5kg plate shoulder raises when I first started training her and she couldn't close the #1 either (even being 170kg back then, which by the way, isn't really a good thing).

Theres things she struggles with genetically too but the reality is that she crawls up the stairs every week because her legs don't work etc It comes from graft not genetics, even with the best genetics in the world it still would too as there would always be others in the same boat. 

By the way there's a lot of females that strength train and do strength sports nowadays, it's growing very fast on the women's side, has been for years now.

Sorry I gave advice if it was not wanted, just wanted to help as someone whos been in that position in the past. Good luck with #3.

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KapMan
32 minutes ago, Aleksandar Milosevic said:



Again, I don't like the way this thread is going, and I made it to get the advice about buying equipment and I've reached my answer, so the thread can be closed.

Thats the gripboard for you

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