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Horrido

Bending Certs Confirmation

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Horrido

Cheers to all Benders and Andrew.

Will there be any confirmations in the bending area in the future?

And are there any plans to pop up the Bastard Certs for the benders out there? To get some guys motivated and make Bending great again..

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VITALIK SEVKO
27 minutes ago, Horrido said:

Cheers to all Benders and Andrew.

Will there be any confirmations in the bending area in the future?

And are there any plans to pop up the Bastard Certs for the benders out there? To get some guys motivated and make Bending great again..

It is a good question!

 I have sent three of my last bends to this mail certs@fatbastardbarbellco.com  ,more than a year ago. Unfortunately - Without results (

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camz

Yes, a very good question!

I am waiting for like 25 certs to be confirmed since May 2017! No problem to wait a week or two, or maybe four.... but one and a half years?! Come on!

 

Make Bending Great Again!

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Andrew P

Honestly the system is broken. I'm working on something new but there is always a higher priority going on.

A issue is over the last few years I've watched hundreds of hours of bending. It's enough to drive someone mad. Try it. I've had help but every time I get a judge they last 2 maybe 3 months then just stop talking to me all together. I don't blame them. And before you say that the cost of the steel covers the certs. It does not. Average Cert takes me 15 minutes to watch load ect. and for what a 1$ for the bar. 

I know this is not a solution but until I figure out something better your going to have to wait. Take today I can either pack and ship orders or watch certs. I'm going to pack orders. 


Any suggestions? And don't volunteer to judge video's, been down that road before and it blows apart each time. Need something sustainable. 

 

Maybe limit certifications to just, Duke, King, Tsar, Emperor. Kind of like Ironmind only has the Red and Gold nail. 

Edited by Andrew P
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Frank Pizzo

As a previous judge for FBBC I was part of the broken system Andrew is talking about...he is not exaggerating about the amount of hours that the cert videos can take up.  When I was helping with it there were 3 of us judging and we could barely keep up with the submissions.  Many times you have to watch the videos, or at least specific parts of them, 4, 5, or 6 times to be absolutely sure when it's a tough decision....you need to love spending HOURS of time watching steel being bent week in and week out, month in and month out, time after time again to be able to keep doing it and still have competent quality control for the certification process.

Andrew is just one person with a full-time job, a home, and a family to see to on top of the FBBC business. He gets a lot accomplished, certainly not everything everyone wants, but lets be real, he is only human after all.  

Maybe he's right...there are just too many certification bars to keep track of without a dedicated staff to oversee the process.

Limiting it to just 3 or 4 of the really tough bars might be a real viable solution.

 

 

 

 

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camz
2 hours ago, Frank Pizzo said:

Limiting it to just 3 or 4 of the really tough bars might be a real viable solution.

Frank - 

I totally see the problem! But to reduce the FBBC list to a hardcore cert only is the wrong way IMHO. FBBC stands for a big variety of certing options for everyone! And with this variety it has had a big role in the bending history!

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Climber028

You either need to add a cost, which will decrease entries and allow the hiring of judges or greatly decrease the number of certs tracked. Basic supply and demand. 

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camz
4 hours ago, Andrew P said:

Any suggestions? And don't volunteer to judge video's, been down that road before and it blows apart each time. Need something sustainable. 

 

Andrew - 

thanks for the answer!

I totally understand the problem! My suggestion would be: Charge 2 or 3 dollars per submission and pay someone to review the cert videos! No joke! Everyone understands, that at the end of the day, it is your time (and your money) you have to invest for the certs and that you can not cover it with the cost of the bars, so this should be fine! (Or at least better than the end of the FBBC bending certs...)

 

4 hours ago, Andrew P said:

Maybe limit certifications to just, Duke, King, Tsar, Emperor. Kind of like Ironmind only has the Red and Gold nail. 

...see my answer to Frank's post...

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Andrew P

So I have been giving this a lot of thought and here are the options I've come up with. Please not the constant in this is Me (Andrew) am not watching another hundred hours of bending video's. 

1) 100% shut down all the bending certifications. 

2) Let the community take over the bending certs and move the lists to a public forum.  

3) Reduce the Certification bars. The list would like like this Shiny Duke, King. CRS Duke, King, Tsar, Emperor. To put this in perspective I currently have around 150 bars being tracked. Not counting Double under and reverse styles. 

4) Start charging 5$ for a certification bend. That would then be turned around and paid to a judge to cover the time. This option has some background logistics that would have to be figured out. 

5) Massive increase in steel price to cover paying a judge. (I don't like this option at all. )

Edited by Andrew P

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acromegaman

#3 sounds like the most sustainable option. It would greatly reduce your workload and the turnaround on the judging should be shortened immensely.

I understand that it's fun to cert on anything and everything, but there are currently too many options and having that many cert videos to watch will always be an issue in one way or another.

Edited by acromegaman

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JHenze646

What if you do all the options? Have a certification fee for bending certs, top 4 or 5 bars must be FBBC reviewed, lesser bars are peer reviewed or judged in person by a pre-approved representative and video shared. Just a thought.

i still hope to get on one of those lesser lists.

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Andrew P

Thank you Frank. Hope all is well with you and the Kiddo's.

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KapMan
1 hour ago, JHenze646 said:

What if you do all the options? Have a certification fee for bending certs, top 4 or 5 bars must be FBBC reviewed, lesser bars are peer reviewed or judged in person by a pre-approved representative and video shared. Just a thought.

i still hope to get on one of those lesser lists.

Maybe do to bending what GB does with MM grippers? 

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Andrew P

MM judges are even more stringent than what I required.

I'm leaning toward option 4. That lets active benders fund their bending with judging bending. It's so much more fun when it's something your actively involved in.  

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KapMan
30 minutes ago, Andrew P said:

MM judges are even more stringent than what I required.

I'm leaning toward option 4. That lets active benders fund their bending with judging bending. It's so much more fun when it's something your actively involved in.  

I meant more the format. 

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Horrido

I tried it. I have watched nearly every bending video, which is online out there in the past three years, I am going on and I don´t going mad with this, because I love steel bending.

I totally understand that this take a lot of time beside the normal job, the family, other hobbies and prioritys, but if I run this company, I should take care of it, because it has a lot of history and very great feats of strength.
It´s hard to read that the judges in the past don´t response to you, Andrew. This is an issue I don´t understand. How much Cert-Videos poped up per week in average? I don´t think that this is a huge amount, which can´t be handeld with like three judges or so!? But perhaps I am on the wrong way!?

The money issue - in my opinion you can´t calculate the viewing time for the video with money per hour. It´s more than a service for the achievement of the athlete.
When we look close to the costs of a bar - for example: the three first posters in this topic are from europe. It costs us a lot of money the get the bars at our home with the shipping and custom costs. In some cases this is 50-60$ on top.

The broken system - what do you mean with broken system?
Since years we are talking about a new website. What´s the big problem to get a new website nowadays?

To reduce the certs - Like Carl said:

9 hours ago, camz said:

Frank - 

I totally see the problem! But to reduce the FBBC list to a hardcore cert only is the wrong way IMHO. FBBC stands for a big variety of certing options for everyone! And with this variety it has had a big role in the bending history!

and in this variety there are a lot of very hard certs, especially in the very short bars. To kick them out would not be fair.

 

My solution would be this:
Get a new website - search for new judges (and in the last case, get some dollars for every cert - I am not fine with that, but I think we can´t avert it) - let the varietys like it is - let the whole great thing to be alive again.

When I read my text it sounds a bit hard, but I don´t want to harm someone or talking mad. I just want to help to make this whole thing to a big thing again.

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camz
4 hours ago, Horrido said:

I tried it. I have watched nearly every bending video, which is online out there in the past three years, I am going on and I don´t going mad with this, because I love steel bending.

I totally understand that this take a lot of time beside the normal job, the family, other hobbies and prioritys, but if I run this company, I should take care of it, because it has a lot of history and very great feats of strength.
It´s hard to read that the judges in the past don´t response to you, Andrew. This is an issue I don´t understand. How much Cert-Videos poped up per week in average? I don´t think that this is a huge amount, which can´t be handeld with like three judges or so!? But perhaps I am on the wrong way!?

The money issue - in my opinion you can´t calculate the viewing time for the video with money per hour. It´s more than a service for the achievement of the athlete.
When we look close to the costs of a bar - for example: the three first posters in this topic are from europe. It costs us a lot of money the get the bars at our home with the shipping and custom costs. In some cases this is 50-60$ on top.

The broken system - what do you mean with broken system?
Since years we are talking about a new website. What´s the big problem to get a new website nowadays?

To reduce the certs - Like Carl said:

and in this variety there are a lot of very hard certs, especially in the very short bars. To kick them out would not be fair.

 

My solution would be this:
Get a new website - search for new judges (and in the last case, get some dollars for every cert - I am not fine with that, but I think we can´t avert it) - let the varietys like it is - let the whole great thing to be alive again.

When I read my text it sounds a bit hard, but I don´t want to harm someone or talking mad. I just want to help to make this whole thing to a big thing again.

 

@Andrew P Here we go! Your new judge! 

I am willing to pay 2 Dollars per video I've already sent to get it reviewed! Shall I send the money to you or to Jan?

5 Dollars per cert bend is quite massive! It's not rocket science... but if there's no other way, this is the best way!

And to repeat myself:

Reducing the cert options would change/damage the historical importance of the FBBC certs! The possibilty to work for another bar that is not too far away (see the difference Red Nail to Gold Nail!!!) is what keeps people motivated and therefore involved in bending! This is what FBBC stands for!

 

 

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Donc101
18 hours ago, camz said:

Frank - 

I totally see the problem! But to reduce the FBBC list to a hardcore cert only is the wrong way IMHO. FBBC stands for a big variety of certing options for everyone! And with this variety it has had a big role in the bending history!

I also would like to see the list not be shortened. I think all of the options keep people motivated and make FBBC unique. I would be willing to pay a fee for certs and also help with judging.

How many cert videos do you get a week currently?  I don’t see cert videos posted that frequently anymore. 

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wobbler

Try this on for size: If you want your cert video reviewed, you have to judge 5 others first. Maybe 10 until things catch up. Then yours gets prioritized somehow. Judges vote includes the main requirements: wraps, time, distance between ends. Require 3 unanimous votes, give feedback on failed certs.

Keep money out of it, to keep it simple, honest, and still fun, without creating more work that has to be directly controlled by FBBC.

Could always post up with an * until judged, then either remove the * if it passes, or remove the name/video if not.

I definitely think some fresh action in the certs section would be good for business.

Personally haven't bent anything in a while but recently got some bars, and that might be the nudge I need to start working through them.

That's my 2 cents on it.

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Tom Flesher

Is there any reason your run of the mill Bastard certs can’t be done using a peer system like the Feat Judging forum here? Maybe close polls after a small number of votes a la the MM judging as Kapusta suggested (three votes decides a cert) and require a reason to vote no.

I can see why for your bigger bends this might be unappealing but for your Bastards, Squares, Shiny Bastards... 

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Donc101
53 minutes ago, Tom Flesher said:

Is there any reason your run of the mill Bastard certs can’t be done using a peer system like the Feat Judging forum here? Maybe close polls after a small number of votes a la the MM judging as Kapusta suggested (three votes decides a cert) and require a reason to vote no.

I can see why for your bigger bends this might be unappealing but for your Bastards, Squares, Shiny Bastards... 

This creates more work it seems to me. Then you would need 3 people to watch it instead of 1. I think it would be better to have 1 person who knows the rules, etc and is accepted as a judge by FBBC watch a video than 3 people who may not know the rules as well and are somewhat random. Better for a few consistent judges sharing all certs. I would think anyway.

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Buccos1
On 11/4/2018 at 2:30 PM, Andrew P said:

So I have been giving this a lot of thought and here are the options I've come up with. Please not the constant in this is Me (Andrew) am not watching another hundred hours of bending video's. 

1) 100% shut down all the bending certifications. 

2) Let the community take over the bending certs and move the lists to a public forum.  

3) Reduce the Certification bars. The list would like like this Shiny Duke, King. CRS Duke, King, Tsar, Emperor. To put this in perspective I currently have around 150 bars being tracked. Not counting Double under and reverse styles. 

4) Start charging 5$ for a certification bend. That would then be turned around and paid to a judge to cover the time. This option has some background logistics that would have to be figured out. 

5) Massive increase in steel price to cover paying a judge. (I don't like this option at all. )

Here are some thoughts of mine about all of this:

First, with the judging, I'm sure it is a thankless, time-consuming pursuit.  How many judges did you have before, and approximately how much time were they spending each week on it?  I was one of the certification judges at Benders Battlefield and remember some weeks were bad; others were slow.  But the key was keeping up on all of the submissions.  It was definitely time-consuming, but something, at the time, I wanted to do, to help move bending and the board forward.  I don't think getting paid ever came to mind, and I am not sure how I would've reacted to that prospect at the time.

On point #2, I think there needs to be consistency in the judging, through a core group of people.  Definitely a group that has considerable bending experience, and can objectively judge and review submissions.  If judges were not lasting in the past, maybe adding another person or two?  And to tie this into #3, which I think is a good idea, under the current climate.  There are definitely too many certs.  But as someone stated, that is one of the great things historically about FBBC, giving everyone a chance to get a cert.  I think a possible extension of #3 could be eliminating some of the obscure shorter certs.  At least the "easier" ones, such as 1/4 certs.  Just to keep one from each.  And possibly narrowing down some of the shorter, harder certs, as most that have done this are in a very small group and already proven to be elite.  

I think having a cost for some of the harder certs is a great idea.  Possibly implementing a tiered system: $5 for the "elite" certs; $3 for tough ones (Huge Bastard, Huge Shiny etc.) and $1 for everything else.  (1/4 entry-level certs should be free.)

FBBC certs have been around for a long time, and have definitely been a motivating factor in my bending the past 10 years.  It would be a shame to see it terminated.  I actually hurt my wrist attempting to DU the Big Bastard recently, and have been dealing with this the past few months.  If not for the certs, there is no way I'd be attempting this bar, with everything I have going on, including age and old injuries.  Things like this have definitely given some of us hope, to go after something one more time or stay competitive in some capacity.

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Andrew P

Thank you all for your feedback in input. Once I get King Kong fully behind me and the Crusher thing dealt with I’ll get working on a solution. I hope we can get to a win-win-win. 

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Wannagrip

Why not do what we do in the community records and Feat Judging forums? Or use a similar concept?  

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KapMan
2 hours ago, Wannagrip said:

Why not do what we do in the community records and Feat Judging forums? Or use a similar concept?  

Thats what i suggested

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