Overcrushes vs BTR Training?

[Onerepman]

I'm still a noob so can someone explain the benefit of overcrushes? Also between BTR and overcrushes, which of these is more likely to lead to progression in grippers?

Finally, is it advisable to do both at the same time? 

 

 

[Boulderbrew]

Personally in the beginning I don’t think doing either is a necessity. I did very high volume, lots of overcrushes and negatives in the beginning of my gripper training. I don’t believe it helped, in fact I got injured due to overtraining. In my opinion focusing on heavy singles, doubles and triples a couple times a week is sufficient. 

[ImpGrip]

what are strapholds

[Bill Piche]

Use all of them. Strap holds, overcrushes, and BTR.  

[Cannon]

5 hours ago, Boulderbrew said:

In my opinion focusing on heavy singles, doubles and triples a couple times a week is sufficient. 

I agree with this, but would add that I don’t see any reason not to do the reps on a BTR gripper. I still believe that is the single-most effective thing that built my high-end crush. 

Overcrushes and negatives make my joints hurt.  But if done correctly and sparingly have their place in advanced training. The biggest mistake I feel is that people choose too heavy of a gripper. After you force it shut, if it pops open more than a couple millimeters..it’s too heavy.  Again, my opinion. 

Finally, like Tommy said, practice the set you’ll be using. 

[Fist of Fury]

Yes for sure wait with OC until your hands are conditioned for really hard gripper training. I would probably train with just reps for at least 6 months before doing them. It's very easy to injure your fingers and knuckles when doing OC and BTR.

[Nigel Blackburn]

I'm familiar with BTR. Was trying to find context clues so I don't sound silly asking, but oh well.

What is overcrush?

[Nigel Blackburn]

Just now, Tommy J. said:

Squeezing as hard as possible even after the gripper closes

Oh! Thanks, Tommy. I regularly practice a principle, and I didn't know the term for it. Go figure 

 

[bencrush]

7 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

also, imo, and unfortunately, if you want your gripper strength to climb quickly you need to specialize. And skip other grip training along side the grippers other than hub. I have noticed that the handful of times i was training hub, my gripper strength seemed to peak well.

Interesting observation on the hub, Tommy.  My best gripper strength (MMS) was when I was pulling big numbers on the 1" vbar.  As my 1" vbar numbers climbed - so did my MMS gripper strength. 

[jchapman]

6 minutes ago, bencrush said:

Interesting observation on the hub, Tommy.  My best gripper strength (MMS) was when I was pulling big numbers on the 1" vbar.  As my 1" vbar numbers climbed - so did my MMS gripper strength. 

These two make sense and I might incorporate into my training.  I can see the hub training helping with thumb strength without beating up the rest of the hand and requiring recovery like a flask or block weight training would do.  And, the 1" V-bar would help with "beyond the range" gripper closing strength (3/4" handles closed equals 1.5").

[Chez]

Heavy singles, doubles and triples followed by negatives with a hold have also worked best for me. I have never needed other techniques.

Knocking out small goals by always chasing a goal gripper only a few lbs away 

Edited October 31, 2018 by Chez

[slazbob]

I think the way you put the gripper in your palm can lead to some joint pain with over crush’s. Having the handle parallel in the hand isn’t the best way to do it imo. A lot of people set that way- nothing wrong with it, but Having the handle have some angle really helps the bottom two fingers get the most work . And fits the natural way the fingers want to work with the gripper, Because it doesn’t fully close near the top. plus, you have the bonus of truly getting help from your thumb.  Grip machine is a different story of course.

[Onerepman]

On 10/31/2018 at 2:17 AM, Boulderbrew said:

Personally in the beginning I don’t think doing either is a necessity. I did very high volume, lots of overcrushes and negatives in the beginning of my gripper training. I don’t believe it helped, in fact I got injured due to overtraining. In my opinion focusing on heavy singles, doubles and triples a couple times a week is sufficient. 

So when doing heavy singles, doubles, and triples, do you perform the movement using full ROM or do you do parallel sets? 

[Onerepman]

On 10/31/2018 at 7:57 AM, Cannon said:

I agree with this, but would add that I don’t see any reason not to do the reps on a BTR gripper. I still believe that is the single-most effective thing that built my high-end crush. 

 

When performing reps, is it preferable to do full ROM or parallel sets? 

[Cannon]

45 minutes ago, Onerepman said:

When performing reps, is it preferable to do full ROM or parallel sets? 

I think most people agree you should train the set you’re going to be using. 

If you’re just training grippers for strength and not any certification, I would recommend using a variety of widths that allow all your fingers to be on the handle at the start. 

This is the curious thing about IM’s cert width. I don’t think IM would argue that grippers should be closed with 3 fingers. That’s a way to close a gripper for sure, but I think if you asked them they would be like “No, use all your fingers.”

But the credit card rule is effectively a rule that you must close the gripper with 3 fingers to start and add the 4th if possible sometime later. Very few guys have big enough hands to have the pinky on the handle at CCS width. 

Here’s a photo of Paul Knight doing a #3.5 credit card close. 

Paul arguably has “big” hands. 

Anyway, obviously people are doing it and IM certifications are happening.  And there’s no doubt you’re “closing the gripper from open”. It’s a great feat of strength. Paul does ultimately hop his pinky on around parallel and it’s game over for that poor gripper. So he did use all fingers. But if you’re going for IM’s cert, you have to train this to get better at the 3 finger start.  

But I would train the width you’ll be using. And if it’s just for strength, I would have all fingers on the handle. 

[Boulderbrew]

1 hour ago, Cannon said:

I think most people agree you should train the set you’re going to be using. 

 

^^^this. I’ll just add that nearly all top level gripper closers do most of their training from a parallel set. I am going to certify on the three sometime in the next two weeks (whenever my judge receives the gripper), so all my training has been from a CCS. After that, back to MMS.

[Cannon]

11 minutes ago, Hopefully said:

I agree CCS is sort of a dumb set and gives small (heck even average) hands a huge disadvantage. However I think the technical aspect of it is a fun challenge 

 

I just want to clarify I wasn’t saying it was dumb. I hope my post didn’t come off that way.

[Chez]

Yep, MMS builds the most power the quickest. If I have to do another cert for a cert or comp, I just practice that set a little in he weeks before 

Edited November 4, 2018 by Chez

[Onerepman]

23 hours ago, Cannon said:

I think most people agree you should train the set you’re going to be using. 

If you’re just training grippers for strength and not any certification, I would recommend using a variety of widths that allow all your fingers to be on the handle at the start. 

This is the curious thing about IM’s cert width. I don’t think IM would argue that grippers should be closed with 3 fingers. That’s a way to close a gripper for sure, but I think if you asked them they would be like “No, use all your fingers.”

But the credit card rule is effectively a rule that you must close the gripper with 3 fingers to start and add the 4th if possible sometime later. Very few guys have big enough hands to have the pinky on the handle at CCS width. 

Here’s a photo of Paul Knight doing a #3.5 credit card close. 

Paul arguably has “big” hands. 

Anyway, obviously people are doing it and IM certifications are happening.  And there’s no doubt you’re “closing the gripper from open”. It’s a great feat of strength. Paul does ultimately hop his pinky on around parallel and it’s game over for that poor gripper. So he did use all fingers. But if you’re going for IM’s cert, you have to train this to get better at the 3 finger start.  

But I would train the width you’ll be using. And if it’s just for strength, I would have all fingers on the handle. 

Could I train using a parallel set and still develop the strength needed to close a gripper using a NS/TNS? I was able to do this with easier grippers, closing the CoC No. 2 TNS. However I'm unsure if this would work with the more difficult grippers, with RGC ratings of 150+. 

I'm thinking that if I could parallel close a CoC No. 3.5 in the distant future, closing a CoC No. 3 NS/TNS shouldn't be too difficult to do. (Or am I grossly underestimating the difficulty of these harder grippers?)

[Fist of Fury]

7 minutes ago, Onerepman said:

Could I train using a parallel set and still develop the strength needed to close a gripper using a NS/TNS? I was able to do this with easier grippers, closing the CoC No. 2 TNS. However I'm unsure if this would work with the more difficult grippers, with RGC ratings of 150+. 

I'm thinking that if I could parallel close a CoC No. 3.5 in the distant future, closing a CoC No. 3 NS/TNS shouldn't be too difficult to do. (Or am I grossly underestimating the difficulty of these harder grippers?)

I would say it depends on your hand size. If you have small or normal hands I think you will have a lot of trouble. If you have big hands I think you can do it without training it much.

[Onerepman]

1 hour ago, Fist of Fury said:

I would say it depends on your hand size. If you have small or normal hands I think you will have a lot of trouble. If you have big hands I think you can do it without training it much.

My hands measure at 8 inches in length.

[Cannon]

3 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

A good general rule of thumb for practiced gripper guys is that your CCS or TNS one rep max will be roughly 20#s lighter than your MMS one rep max. This seems to hold true regardless of hand size so long as your a practiced gripper guy.

I really agree with this.  And feel the point about "regardless of hand size" is important.  If you can credit-card-set an IronMind Trainer, then mechanically you are capable of the movement.  So closing harder grippers is an issue of strength only.

I also think the 20 pounds lighter rule of thumb is a good point.  To say it another way, if you want to credit-card-close the average 150 #3.... work up to a parallel close of a 170 gripper.  

You could never do credit card training and likely be capable of the certification as long as you can parallel close a 170+ gripper.  You're going to have the horsepower.   

 

[Fist of Fury]

44 minutes ago, Cannon said:

I really agree with this.  And feel the point about "regardless of hand size" is important.  If you can credit-card-set an IronMind Trainer, then mechanically you are capable of the movement.  So closing harder grippers is an issue of strength only.

I also think the 20 pounds lighter rule of thumb is a good point.  To say it another way, if you want to credit-card-close the average 150 #3.... work up to a parallel close of a 170 gripper.  

You could never do credit card training and likely be capable of the certification as long as you can parallel close a 170+ gripper.  You're going to have the horsepower.   

 

I disagree with it, to some extent. In general it might be the case but if you're at a very high level I don't think it is. Just look at the amount of people who have MMS closed the #4 and then look at the list of official certs on the #3.5....

And that is with CCS, which is much easier than TNS. Not often you see TNS with #3.5's. Actually it's more rare than MMS closes with the #4.

[wobbler]

I can vouch for the 20lbs rule on the lower end. Compared to other stuff I'm not very good at grippers. Best is 105 tns, 126 deep set.

I'll add that a ~20lb rule might go the other way too, my best parallel choked close is 143.

[Chez]

I started to think about it and 20 lbs sounds right for me also. So this seems like a good rule of thumb. There will be outliners as always.