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Integrity of Grip Contests


Kluv#0

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I know having multi-venue contest it is IMPOSSIBLE to have perfect comparisons and all implements of same consistency. However, when you are an organizer of huge grip event and you ACKNOWLEDGE massive irregularities and keenly AWARE of problem with handle of said implement you are responsible to -

A. Be forthright and let entire field of competitors know of situation- even though it not be malicious

B. Sure as heck cannot let those results be included in final results

C. Sure sheet cannot have those lifts included in NAGS top 100

D. Issue a stern warning to all promoters that playing dumb is not an option when it comes to INTEGRITY

If this makes me bad guy so be it. I would rather speak up instead of keep quiet

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As far as I know everyone has been as transparent as possible. Did I miss something? 

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For those who are curious about what this is about, it’s about the 2.5” Crusher numbers out of the Pennsylvania King Kong venue.

Here’s a summary of what happened this weekend. When Andrew and I started looking through the results that were coming in from the various venues on Saturday night, we noticed that the 2.5” Crusher numbers from the Pennsylvania venue seemed surprisingly high. We proceeded to look into the issue, requesting a picture of the handle that was used, which was quickly provided. Joe Sullivan even sent us a video of the handle demonstrating that it spins freely. From examination, it is not clear if anything is wrong with the handle – there may or may not be. It’s currently being shipped to Andrew so that he can determine for sure. It’s the latest version of the Crusher, the same version that was used in many King Kong venues around the world. (Note that there are several different versions of the device that have been developed over the years, but are all believed to function the same way.)

We debated all of Sunday about how to handle this issue. Some options that were floated included:

Reduce all Crusher results from the PA venue by X percentage. There were a few problems with this option. One is that we don’t know if the increased numbers are the result of a defective handle, or if this version of the handle is actually easier. And whether it’s one or the other, there’s no way to know if the other handles round the world also act in the same manner. So it’s possible that reducing the PA numbers would be unfair if other are lifting with a similar handle in another venue. And if we would reduce the numbers, there was no perfect way to know which percentage to use.

Exclude the PA Crusher results from the contest. We felt this would be unfair to all of the PA competitors. We have no reason to believe there was any malicious intent, and penalizing everyone who competed in the venue did not seem like the right thing to do.

Exclude the Crusher results from the whole contest, leaving King Kong as just a three-event contest. Perhaps in terms of “integrity” this would have been the fairest solution, but extremely sucky for everyone.

We took a look at the standings, and saw what they would look like if the PA Crusher lifts were reduced by a slight percentage. In the end, the Top 3 weight class standings weren’t affected. Given this, the high level of uncertainty about whether or not this was an isolated issue, and the fact that 210 people around the world were waiting to see the results, we made the decision to let the results stand.

Was this the perfect decision? Perhaps not, but it’s what we settled on. We are not perfect. I hope everyone can understand how difficult of a situation this was.

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At the Wyalusing venue, we used an official FBBC Crusher that was unaltered, and as far as I know, the current model being sold right now.  I know it looks identical to the pictures I've been sent of the current model.  Joe Sullivan brought his model, and I was surprised to see his handle was different from the one I've had since roughly 2013/14. He said he bought it at the end of 2016.

I didn't have any idea there were even variations in the shape/design of the FBBC Crusher, aside from the actual size differences in the gripping handle (2", 2.5" etc) until I saw Joe's Crusher.

We did the drop test with the handle, where you hold the V-shaped piece parallel to the ground and let it go, and they both moved exactly the same way.

However, with his handle, the axle that goes through the gripping part didn't slide as as far as mine or Chris Andrade's.  This is a mechanical feature that automatically will make lifts easier on it.

We decided to use Joe's, instead of mine, after getting it weighed on the post office scale in town.

The handle is unaltered, straight from the manufacturer, and used by Joe since 2016. 

After the event, I contacted Eric Roussin to let him know the situation and sent Andrew Pantke a picture, to which he said it was normal.

It's Joe's handle - he produced almost identical numbers in the comp to what he did in training.  The only differences were by people who trained on other Crushers.

The new handle seems to be an easier handle, due to the new way it's made.  This new design allows for more to be lifted, much the same as an Old Style Rolling Thunder allows for more to be lifted.

I don't know what the reason might have been for changing the design of the handle, but I'm happy training on a harder handle throughout prep and then using the current model that is easier, any day of the week, especially when it's the same design that many other venues used (as judging from videos I've seen posted online).  In fact, I train on a Crusher replica made by Luke that has a larger circumference that the actual handle, in order to train on a harder handle that that being contested.

Anybody, given the choice of multiple copies of the same tool, will choose to use the one that seems easier, whether it be due to surface, seasoning, or any other factor.  That's what we did.

If there's a problem with the handle we used, then who's to say there's not a problem with all of these certain models of the 2.5" Crusher out there.

Speaking along the lines of a level playing field, if the newer model of Crusher is easier, I'm not going to purposely handicap myself and all the people who trained their asses off for the event and drove hours to get to the competition, and especially when many of the other venues out there are using the very same model of handle.

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The FBBC 2.5 inch crusher we used was purchased factory direct from FBBC in 12/16 when I first started Grip. The crusher was unaltered, genuine, and I got the same exact numbers on mine as I did when using Jedds in multiple training sessions at his gym in the past. I didn’t even realize there was any difference in the design. Same numbers. Furthermore, Jedds crusher was set up on game day to warm up on. I felt no difference at all and got the same exact numbers on his , yet again, before making my attempts on the officialy used one. Jedd technically did not have to mention anything to anyone about the crusher being any different, as it is an OFFICIAL FBBC 2.5 incher just like most used across the world on 10/27/18. Jedd had zero obligation to say any different. So, I would say his integrity went above and beyond to be transparent and forthcoming to avoid any possible accusations or controversy. Over and out!

Joe Sullivan

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I will also add that I have exchanged the said crusher with the owner for a brand new one and it's currently in travel to my location for examination. I'm not going to theorize on what the exact issue is till my investigation is complete. What I can tell you is from the photo's I've reviewed it is a current generation Crusher and appeared to have no tampering done. 

As far as a design change from when I purchased FBBC the only thing I changed on the crusher was the length of the center bar and removed a large bushing to reduce cost. 

Now if you have an old John B version those are distinctly different. 

 

Edited by Andrew P
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I have no real frame of reference since it was only the second time I'd ever touched a Crusher.  I do know that a few days before the contest, I got 184 on the super slick 2.5" Titan handle I have.  So 187 on a handle with chalk and a little texture seemed about right.  But what do I know?  

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12 minutes ago, Andrew P said:

I will also add that I have exchanged the said crusher with the owner for a brand new one and it's currently in travel to my location for examination. I'm not going to theorize on what the exact issue is till my investigation is complete. What I can tell you is from the photo's I've reviewed it is a current generation Crusher and appeared to have no tampering done. 

As far as a design change from when I purchased FBBC the only thing I changed on the crusher was the length of the center bar and removed a large bushing to reduce cost. 

Now if you have an old John B version those are distinctly different. 

 

Well that's about as transparent as it gets.  Can't wait to hear your findings.  If the handle is somehow flawed, I'll be the first to ask for my result to be removed.  I never want to take credit for something that wasn't earned.  But I'm guessing that it will be just fine and be the same as everyone's newer handles.  

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24 minutes ago, Jedd Johnson said:

It's Joe's handle - he produced almost identical numbers in the comp to what he did in training.  The only differences were by people who trained on other Crushers.

 

25 minutes ago, Jedd Johnson said:

Speaking along the lines of a level playing field, if the newer model of Crusher is easier, I'm not going to purposely handicap myself and all the people who trained their asses off for the event and drove hours to get to the competition, and especially when many of the other venues out there are using the very same model of handle.

Thanks for the explanation Jedd, that makes perfect sense. I would have done the same thing. Glad you all were able to pull monster numbers. Congrats on the Flask WR too!

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I was curious as improvements fromKK'17 to KK'18 were 38lbs, 32lbs, 30lb and 21lbs- The 2.5" crusher does not lend itself to that big of increases for established gripsters- heck, that would be great axle weight improvement. What concerned me was  weight in a title of a crusher video below was changed from Saturday to Sunday A.M. and another training vid was deleted which would have shown no way 200lb could have been lifted. Below is 2 vids within 5 days of each other- 193 crusher vid had title changed(Sunday A.M.) from 190lb-193lb when its 188 at most. The contest lift of at least 12 more than lift 5 days prior- no way in world he lifts 200lb like that as his training vds were not indicating that not even close.

 

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Just now, Mike Rinderle said:

Well that's about as transparent as it gets.  Can't wait to hear your findings.  If the handle is somehow flawed, I'll be the first to ask for my result to be removed.  I never want to take credit for something that wasn't earned.  But I'm guessing that it will be just fine and be the same as everyone's newer handles.  

If anyone has ANY DOUBT....I will do the whole freaking contest again! And get the  205 that I got on a 5th attempt for fun! I don’t care. If anyone has any doubt... I will gladly do it again. Just about every training lift I do it posted on instagram and YouTube from various implements at various locations if there is ever any question of my ability. 

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6 minutes ago, Kluv#0 said:

I was curious as improvements fromKK'17 to KK'18 were 38lbs, 32lbs, 30lb and 21lbs- The 2.5" crusher does not lend itself to that big of increases for established gripsters- heck, that would be great axle weight improvement. What concerned me was  weight in a title of a crusher video below was changed from Saturday to Sunday A.M. and another training vid was deleted which would have shown no way 200lb could have been lifted. Below is 2 vids within 5 days of each other- 193 crusher vid had title changed(Sunday A.M.) from 190lb-193lb when its 188 at most. The contest lift of at least 12 more than lift 5 days prior- no way in world he lifts 200lb like that as his training vds were not indicating that not even close.

 

I was not an established gripster last year! I started on a crusher on 12/16 and my first comp was 10/28/17. 

Edited by Guest
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I big increase because after kk17 was when I actually started training it. I don't even feel like I did well on the crusher and was hoping to get about 8-10lbs more based on training lifts

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6 minutes ago, Kluv#0 said:

I was curious as improvements fromKK'17 to KK'18 were 38lbs, 32lbs, 30lb and 21lbs- The 2.5" crusher does not lend itself to that big of increases for established gripsters- heck, that would be great axle weight improvement. What concerned me was  weight in a title of a crusher video below was changed from Saturday to Sunday A.M. and another training vid was deleted which would have shown no way 200lb could have been lifted. Below is 2 vids within 5 days of each other- 193 crusher vid had title changed(Sunday A.M.) from 190lb-193lb when its 188 at most. The contest lift of at least 12 more than lift 5 days prior- no way in world he lifts 200lb like that as his training vds were not indicating that not even close.

 

You do realize those are both the same crushers in the videos you posted. The same implement used In the comp... also, I believe the deleted Video was a DOUBLE POST

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Also, i believe Joe doesn't have a scale at home, that training lift could easily be higher or lower than reality so it's a bad comparison. 

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11 minutes ago, Kluv#0 said:

I was curious as improvements fromKK'17 to KK'18 were 38lbs, 32lbs, 30lb and 21lbs- The 2.5" crusher does not lend itself to that big of increases for established gripsters- heck, that would be great axle weight improvement. What concerned me was  weight in a title of a crusher video below was changed from Saturday to Sunday A.M. and another training vid was deleted which would have shown no way 200lb could have been lifted. Below is 2 vids within 5 days of each other- 193 crusher vid had title changed(Sunday A.M.) from 190lb-193lb when its 188 at most. The contest lift of at least 12 more than lift 5 days prior- no way in world he lifts 200lb like that as his training vds were not indicating that not even close.

 

Furthermore… The title was changed because I posted it as 188 because I Mis counted the 45s as 3 45s iequaling 130 rather than the actual 135 hence making it 193!!!! There is ZERO deception on my part. 

Edited by Guest
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13 minutes ago, Kluv#0 said:

I was curious as improvements fromKK'17 to KK'18 were 38lbs, 32lbs, 30lb and 21lbs- The 2.5" crusher does not lend itself to that big of increases for established gripsters- heck, that would be great axle weight improvement. What concerned me was  weight in a title of a crusher video below was changed from Saturday to Sunday A.M. and another training vid was deleted which would have shown no way 200lb could have been lifted. Below is 2 vids within 5 days of each other- 193 crusher vid had title changed(Sunday A.M.) from 190lb-193lb when its 188 at most. The contest lift of at least 12 more than lift 5 days prior- no way in world he lifts 200lb like that as his training vds were not indicating that not even close.

 

Furthermore, there is text messages from Jedd Johnson and myself discussing how I miscounted the 188 that was really 193… If anybody wants to see that for proof from days ago! THE REASON WHY THE TITLE WAS CHANGED!! Man what a world we live in

Edited by Guest
M
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23 minutes ago, Kluv#0 said:

I was curious as improvements fromKK'17 to KK'18 were 38lbs, 32lbs, 30lb and 21lbs- The 2.5" crusher does not lend itself to that big of increases for established gripsters- heck, that would be great axle weight improvement. What concerned me was  weight in a title of a crusher video below was changed from Saturday to Sunday A.M. and another training vid was deleted which would have shown no way 200lb could have been lifted. Below is 2 vids within 5 days of each other- 193 crusher vid had title changed(Sunday A.M.) from 190lb-193lb when its 188 at most. The contest lift of at least 12 more than lift 5 days prior- no way in world he lifts 200lb like that as his training vds were not indicating that not even close.

 

I had never trained a rotating handle before I bought the Titan handle a few months ago.  Crap, I didn't even train grip much at all until after KK last year.  It was kind of a running joke.

I worked my azz off the last several months.  I didn't get a video of the 184 with the titan handle, but here I am doing 180 easy and getting 185 before the handle slipped out at the top. This was 6 weeks ago.  180, 185, 170 x 3.  When I first got that handle in April, I barely got 161.  Here's the video: 161.5.  Apparently you can improve pretty quickly on it if you actually train it.  Who woulda thunk?  Lol.  Heck, your tips helped me improve a lot Mike.

As for Joe, 7 pounds due to contest adrenaline on the exact same handle seams pretty reasonable.  It was Joe's handle we used at the contest.

 

 

Edited by Mike Rinderle
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1 hour ago, Kluv#0 said:

I was curious as improvements fromKK'17 to KK'18 were 38lbs, 32lbs, 30lb and 21lbs- The 2.5" crusher does not lend itself to that big of increases for established gripsters- heck, that would be great axle weight improvement. What concerned me was  weight in a title of a crusher video below was changed from Saturday to Sunday A.M. and another training vid was deleted which would have shown no way 200lb could have been lifted. Below is 2 vids within 5 days of each other- 193 crusher vid had title changed(Sunday A.M.) from 190lb-193lb when its 188 at most. The contest lift of at least 12 more than lift 5 days prior- no way in world he lifts 200lb like that as his training vds were not indicating that not even close.

 

Here it is..... please no one call me! Haha

 

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Joe and I were just texting about his miss-counting this weekend.  I am attaching a screen shot.

EDIT:  I took the original down and replaced it with Joe's number blacked out.  Think Billy Ripken, 1989 Topps card.

 

Screenshot-20181030-143536.jpg

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8 minutes ago, Mike Rinderle said:

I had never trained a rotating handle before I bought the Titan handle a few months ago.  Crap, I didn't even train grip much at all until after KK last year.  It was kind of a running joke.

I worked my azz off the last several months.  I didn't get a video of the 184 with the titan handle, but here I am doing 180 easy and getting 185 before the handle slipped out at the top. This was 6 weeks ago.  180, 185, 170 x 3.  When I first got that handle in April, I barely got 161.  Here's the video: 161.5

As for Joe, 7 pounds due to contest adrenaline on the exact same handle seams pretty reasonable.  It was Joe's handle we used at the contest.

 

 

How this became an issue of my integrity, I don’t know, but I will say to anyone, anywhere and at anytime, I will perform any lift with any implements of anyone’s choice no matter the conditions!! I have no fear of displaying my ability before or after any fact. My blood is actually boiling right now that it’s even being questioned. Bring it on, any accusers! 

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1 minute ago, Joseph Sullivan said:

How this became an issue of my integrity, I don’t know, but I will say to anyone, anywhere and at anytime, I will perform any lift with any implements of anyone’s choice no matter the conditions!! I have no fear of displaying my ability before or after any fact. My blood is actually boiling right now that it’s even being questioned. Bring it on, any accusers! 

Cheater cheater pumpkin eater.

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One thing is certain.  That's the last multi-venue contest I ever do.  I definitely don't do grip for drama. This is all supposed to be for fun.  Anyone that would cheat to win a grip contest or even bump their numbers would have to be living a pretty sad life.  Lol.  Everyone's stuff is different.   Just lends itself to these kinds of problems.  

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I have no dog in this fight.  But like in most situations like this - let's wait and see what FBBC finds when they inspect the handle.  Making assumptions before the investigation is more like the 24 hour news stations.  About the only thing I am sure of is there was no intent to fool - defraud - cheat or whatever term you want to throw at it.  

And even if the handle might be found "easier" I can't see any way to possibly hold a contest like this held at multiple locations on the same day to not suffer to some extent (however how small) as no two items can be made absolutely identical.  We all work as hard as we can to do the right thing ( and I have no doubt that was the situation here as well) - and then we move on - and try our best to not let it happen again in the future.

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My final word on the subject:

If someone figures out a way to cheat on the MoonDrop, hit me up.  87th place.  🤦‍♂️

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