Mike Rinderle Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 12 minutes ago, Joseph Sullivan said: In speaking of his bodyweight it does. The 200 pounder if called to can do the said reps at any given moment.. the hypothetical 400 pounder couldn’t... so the 200 pounder is more efficient using his bodyweight with his given strength. That’s like saying the 400 pounder could run faster than the 200 pounder if he stripped the weight... sure that would make them even... but at said bodyweight the 400 pounder would fail the pull up test just like the 200 pounder would fail the max weight the 400 pounder can do. Many ways to look at strength. No. There really isn't. Not according to science anyway. The 200 lb guy is moving less weight over a shorter range of motion. Hang 240 lbs on the little guy and if he can do more pullups than the 440 pounder he is stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, Mike Rinderle said: No. There really isn't. Not according to science anyway. The 200 lb guy is moving less weight over a shorter range of motion. Hang 240 lbs on the little guy and if he can do more pullups than the 440 pounder he is stronger. What I’m saying is ... if the 200 pound guy was called to pull his body up 10 times in a real life situation and the 400 pounder was also callled to do so... the 400 pounder would fail. He would not be able to do it. That makes the 200 pounder more efficient with his bodyweight. It’s quite simple. We can tailor make the conditions all we want, but at the end of the day, the 400 pounder would have to lose a lot of weight to equal the amount of pulls ups the little guy can do with zero modification. In a real life situation where pulling ones body up to safety would have the 200 pounder making it to safety and the 400 pounder not making it. I guess I’m looking at it as a marines point of view. There’s nothing scientific about it. I’m not looking at if we hang 240 on the 200 pounder as you are Rindo. I’m looking at from the point that the 200 pounder can, if called to do so, pull his bodyweight up over a bar more times than the 400 pounder can making him more efficient, if he wasn’t more efficient at the bodyweight we wouldn’t have to make any modifications to the 400 pounder to make him capable of doing it. I think we are just looking at it from different points of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 53 minutes ago, Joseph Sullivan said: What I’m saying is ... if the 200 pound guy was called to pull his body up 10 times in a real life situation and the 400 pounder was also callled to do so... the 400 pounder would fail. He would not be able to do it. That makes the 200 pounder more efficient with his bodyweight. It’s quite simple. We can tailor make the conditions all we want, but at the end of the day, the 400 pounder would have to lose a lot of weight to equal the amount of pulls ups the little guy can do with zero modification. In a real life situation where pulling ones body up to safety would have the 200 pounder making it to safety and the 400 pounder not making it. I guess I’m looking at it as a marines point of view. There’s nothing scientific about it. I’m not looking at if we hang 240 on the 200 pounder as you are Rindo. I’m looking at from the point that the 200 pounder can, if called to do so, pull his bodyweight up over a bar more times than the 400 pounder can making him more efficient, if he wasn’t more efficient at the bodyweight we wouldn’t have to make any modifications to the 400 pounder to make him capable of doing it. I think we are just looking at it from different points of view. Guess I'll have to give that to you since we're now using some made up measurement called efficiency with bodyweight. He may be more "efficient with his bodyweight," but he sure as heck isn't stronger. You lose this old physics whiz when we start inventing new ways of making weaker people seem stronger than people that are stronger than them. Anyway, doesn't really matter. Tomorrow I'm identifying as the strongest man in the world. Therefore it must be so. Stay tuned for video. Note: afterward I'm going to identify as a red car and drive myself really fast through the drivethrough of McDonald's. Naked of course, because cars don't wear clothes. I will be just as much of a red car as the little guy that can do more pullups than a WSM champ is stronger than he is. So I expect no repercussions. WTH has happened to this world? Let's twist facts and ignore science so nobody gets their feelings hurt. Everybody wins if we just develop enough formulas to compensate for their genetic differences. Problem solved! Stronger is stronger. Rindo out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 10 minutes ago, Tommy J. said: Hey!... that was racist! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Mike Rinderle said: Guess I'll have to give that to you since we're now using some made up measurement called efficiency with bodyweight. He may be more "efficient with his bodyweight," but he sure as heck isn't stronger. You lose this old physics whiz when we start inventing new ways of making weaker people seem stronger than people that are stronger than them. Anyway, doesn't really matter. Tomorrow I'm identifying as the strongest man in the world. Therefore it must be so. Stay tuned for video. Note: afterward I'm going to identify as a red car and drive myself really fast through the drivethrough of McDonald's. Naked of course, because cars don't wear clothes. I will be just as much of a red car as the little guy that can do more pullups than a WSM champ is stronger than he is. So I expect no repercussions. WTH has happened to this world? Let's twist facts and ignore science so nobody gets their feelings hurt. Everybody wins if we just develop enough formulas to compensate for their genetic differences. Problem solved! Stronger is stronger. Rindo out. Who’s twisting or making up formulas? I am on your side being against the “pound for pound crowd”... and efficiency with ones bodyweight isn’t made up. If I can do 10 pull-ups and you can’t and we are the same weight, I am more efficient. Can the 400 pounder do the 10 pull ups? Then he is not efficient with his bodyweight. They used this term when I was in the marine corps so I did not make it up. Either you do the pull ups or you don’t. The guy that weighs less than the big guy can do more pull ups at their bodyweight. I’m not talking about limit strength with this. Of course the 400 pounder is going to have more limit strength, but when was the last time you saw a 400 pounder in a pull up contest against 200 pounders? Or even against 400 pounders? I’m going to say never, because they aren’t good at them. How is stating that a 200 pounder can do more pull ups than a 400 pounder making up a formula? It is what it is. No man Is the best at everything, that’s why don’t see 400 pounders in calisthenics comps... unless you “add bands to reduce their weight”.... which you’ll never see. Great conversation Edited August 18, 2018 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 I've read several scientific or at least semi scientific articles about why smaller people can lift more in relative terms than bigger guys - it's kind of interesting stuff really. It gets complicated with relative limb lengths - insertion points across joints etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, Tommy J. said: For getting technical sake, i dont even know why we are talking about 200lb guys doing pullups. the guys that do the best pullups are well under 200lbs. so if we compare 150lb guys to 200lb guys in regards to pullups, then all of a sudden the 200lb guys arent as “effecient” per their bw as they thought they were. Yes that is very true. I didn’t bring up the pull up subject. I can tell you for certain I am done with it though. This thread got really silly real quick. I won’t be coming back to this one.... maybe.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Tommy J. said: For getting technical sake, i dont even know why we are talking about 200lb guys doing pullups. the guys that do the best pullups are well under 200lbs. so if we compare 150lb guys to 200lb guys in regards to pullups, then all of a sudden the 200lb guys arent as “effecient” per their bw as they thought they were. I did 32 in 5th grade. I was the most efficient man in the world! Edited August 18, 2018 by Mike Rinderle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 1 minute ago, Mike Rinderle said: I did 32 in 5th grade. I was the most efficient man in the world! So your a wise guy ayyyyyeeee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 1 minute ago, Tommy J. said: Meh.. it keeps it interesting. Lol That’s why I said ... maybe... I can never resist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 5 minutes ago, Tommy J. said: But seriously though, if a lighter guy wanted to call Brian out on pullups, Brian could easily respond with “sure. Then after we do that we can have a max weight lat pulldown contest.” Haha that would be hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 Every good gymnast is quite small - all the great shot putters are big - the good discus throwers are fairly big and have long arms - basketball players are tall. Horses for courses. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 1 minute ago, climber511 said: Every good gymnast is quite small - all the great shot putters are big - the good discus throwers are fairly big and have long arms - basketball players are tall. Horses for courses. Exactly! People do the sport they are tailored for... and no one is or can be the best at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Climber028 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 It's almost as if strength can be defined in hundreds of ways and nobody can maximize them all. Crazy how that works. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 13 minutes ago, Joseph Sullivan said: Exactly! People do the sport they are tailored for... and no one is or can be the best at all. Once there was a man. Damn glass hip. Bo Knows 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 1 minute ago, Mike Rinderle said: Once there was a man. Damn glass hip. Bo Knows Hahahah I was thinking about this the other day !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, climber511 said: I've read several scientific or at least semi scientific articles about why smaller people can lift more in relative terms than bigger guys - it's kind of interesting stuff really. It gets complicated with relative limb lengths - insertion points across joints etc. If you simplify it first by looking at scaling it is rather simple. Small people have more relative strength because the way strength and weight scale. A 10% taller version of your self, with EXACTLY the same proportions, would be 21% stronger (muscle as well as bone). Not roughly 21% stronger but exactly 21% stronger. He/she would also be exactly 33.1% heavier. Weight rises by the cube and strength by the square. Things get more complicated when you don't scale things up or down (which is a theoretical concept as humans can't be scaled) but the basic principles explains why small people have most relative strength and eg why a blue whale has very poor relative strength compared with eg a dolphin. It would take quite some time for a blue whale to make a 180 degree turn from max swimming speed whereas a dolphin could turn much faster. Again it is because weight rises by the cube and strength by the square. Edited August 19, 2018 by Mikael Siversson 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_wigren Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 IMO strength is incredibly complicated. But, no matter how you twist and turn things, the strongest man competitions is where the strongest are determined. However, I definitely recognice that some aspects of strength is not only determined by how strong your muscles are but also by your structure. Where everything from limb length to limb thickness and muscle insertions play a factor. For example. Brian is about twice as strong as me in just about everything, yet there are some movements where I’m stronger. Like the ability to squeeze your hands together behind your back. Sure, this is a very unconventional test of strength. But in the factual case, I can most likely procuse a greater force in this particular angle. The reason for this is of course that the flesh of Brian’s back and arms along with his relatively poor flexability will cancel out most of the force produced by his muscles. In actuality, his muscles are obviously alot stronger, but in effect he’s weaker. This might be considered as a bad example but in fact it illustrates the point that the body structure is important. Because the very opposite effect is true for many of the conventional exercises such as the squat, deadlift, bench and etc where being big and inflexible will help you lift more. In a squat you want your muscles to be tight to where they start to stretch a bit at the bottom. And also the bigger your legs are and your gut, the more meat is pushed together to create a resistance to aid in your squat. In the end though it doesn’t really matter. Because strong is strong, there is no denying that. But I think it’s still important to recognize that strength is complicated. Which is why you see different people winning different events even though the events test the exact same muscle groups. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 2 hours ago, David_wigren said: IMO strength is incredibly complicated. But, no matter how you twist and turn things, the strongest man competitions is where the strongest are determined. However, I definitely recognice that some aspects of strength is not only determined by how strong your muscles are but also by your structure. Where everything from limb length to limb thickness and muscle insertions play a factor. For example. Brian is about twice as strong as me in just about everything, yet there are some movements where I’m stronger. Like the ability to squeeze your hands together behind your back. Sure, this is a very unconventional test of strength. But in the factual case, I can most likely procuse a greater force in this particular angle. The reason for this is of course that the flesh of Brian’s back and arms along with his relatively poor flexability will cancel out most of the force produced by his muscles. In actuality, his muscles are obviously alot stronger, but in effect he’s weaker. This might be considered as a bad example but in fact it illustrates the point that the body structure is important. Because the very opposite effect is true for many of the conventional exercises such as the squat, deadlift, bench and etc where being big and inflexible will help you lift more. In a squat you want your muscles to be tight to where they start to stretch a bit at the bottom. And also the bigger your legs are and your gut, the more meat is pushed together to create a resistance to aid in your squat. In the end though it doesn’t really matter. Because strong is strong, there is no denying that. But I think it’s still important to recognize that strength is complicated. Which is why you see different people winning different events even though the events test the exact same muscle groups. Couldn’t have said it better Wiggy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Hunsaker Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 What about drug testing? We love to argue endlessly about weight and hand size. You can't succeed in professional strongman without performance enhancing substances (this isn't up for argument, and it isn't just testosterone). Got any friends that supplement? Their forearms are MASSIVE. They're always good at thick bar. If a "supplemented" athlete shows up and beats every record, did they really beat the record? The Fins drug test. Want to end this debate right now, treat it like the Olympics and claim your prize after you pass a test...no one gets steamrolled by pro strongmen in that scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, Bryan Hunsaker said: What about drug testing? We love to argue endlessly about weight and hand size. You can't succeed in professional strongman without performance enhancing substances (this isn't up for argument, and it isn't just testosterone). Got any friends that supplement? Their forearms are MASSIVE. They're always good at thick bar. If a "supplemented" athlete shows up and beats every record, did they really beat the record? The Fins drug test. Want to end this debate right now, treat it like the Olympics and claim your prize after you pass a test...no one gets steamrolled by pro strongmen in that scenario. I am 110% for and pro testing! Let’s do it! No more games! (Threads probably gonna get shut down now) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rinderle Posted August 20, 2018 Share Posted August 20, 2018 8 minutes ago, Bryan Hunsaker said: What about drug testing? We love to argue endlessly about weight and hand size. You can't succeed in professional strongman without performance enhancing substances (this isn't up for argument, and it isn't just testosterone). Got any friends that supplement? Their forearms are MASSIVE. They're always good at thick bar. If a "supplemented" athlete shows up and beats every record, did they really beat the record? The Fins drug test. Want to end this debate right now, treat it like the Olympics and claim your prize after you pass a test...no one gets steamrolled by pro strongmen in that scenario. Rule #4. Can't discuss that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAVE101 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 4 hours ago, Mike Rinderle said: Rule #4. Can't discuss that. True! But it is a weird catch all that doesn't even allow us to discuss caffeine! On the bright side, as long as there's no discussion, we won't have anyone pointing fingers as nothing is explicitly disallowed in competitions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KapMan Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 These threads crack me up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_wigren Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, Tommy J. said: and even if there were tests, the same guys would still end up top 10 in WSM. Just like bodybuilding, these guys are blessed with genetics others dont have. This is most likely not true since how well you respond to steroids has alot to do with androgen receptors and a few other factors. Genetics are more complicated. Some guy could grow massively while being natural yet only see small improvements when on gear. And another guy could be a near no responder to weight training and then absolutely explode when on gear. Due to this the top 10 guys would probably be completely different people if there was drug testing. With maybe an exception or two. Edited August 21, 2018 by David_wigren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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