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Boulderbrew

Brian Shaw Easily lifts Gigantor Blob

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Mike Rinderle
33 minutes ago, DAVE101 said:

All the formulas do is match the average top lifter in each weight class. If someone doesn't fare well with their coefficient score, then they are either weak or could benefit from dropping a weight class or two. This is why someone like Brian Shaw wouldn't do well with a Wilks formula, you'd be applying a weight class type equation to a non-weight class athlete. If Brian cared to drop his extra bodyfat to be competitive, his score would be through the roof.

Wilks is specifically designed for powerlifting, but even using that one unaltered still works fairly well. There have been a few forum grip contests that have used them, sometimes the 190 lb guy wins, sometimes the 245 lb guy wins.

 

Have you seen Brian Shaw without a shirt?  The man has abs at 440.  He's not walking around at 40% body fat.

And Wilkes is specifically designed to make smaller people feel better about not being as strong as bigger people.  They lost the genetic lottery and want to handicap other athletes so they can claim they are stronger even though they lifted less weight.

Edited by Mike Rinderle
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climber511

It's pretty hard to argue that larger people (non fat) are stronger than smaller people.  A quick look at the Top 50 lists shows that with a few exceptions it's larger people on there.  But thinking of competition only in terms of the biggest strongest people is not the way to go.

I'd love to compete against Brian - not because I think I'd stand a chance but because I'd get to watch him up close and personal.

Edited by climber511
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Mike Rinderle
4 minutes ago, climber511 said:

It's pretty hard to argue that larger people (non fat) are stronger than smaller people.  A quick look at the Top 50 lists shows that with a few exceptions it's larger people on there.  But thinking of competition only in terms of the biggest strongest people is not the way to go.

I'd love to compete against Brian - not because I think I'd stand a chance but because I'd get to watch him up close and personal.

Agreed.  That's why there are classes based on weight, sex, age, etc.  The whole Wilkes / Allometric thing is so someone can tell themselves they are stronger than someone who actually lifts more weight than them.

We have enough classes.  I mean, an out of shape 50 year old is our sport's 120kg North American Champ.  I'm pretty sure that shouldn't happen in any sport.  🤣

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climber511

Mike - there's a formula out there that puts age into the equation - maybe if we use that we can have a chance :)

http://www.mastersweightlifting.org/formulas.html 

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Chez
29 minutes ago, climber511 said:

It's pretty hard to argue that larger people (non fat) are stronger than smaller people.  A quick look at the Top 50 lists shows that with a few exceptions it's larger people on there.  But thinking of competition only in terms of the biggest strongest people is not the way to go.

I'd love to compete against Brian - not because I think I'd stand a chance but because I'd get to watch him up close and personal.

Weight is very relative. For guys like me, mike and joe - we would look very skinny at 200 lbs. I wouldn’t be able to retain much muscle at that weight. I graduated high school without ever weight training super thin and a boy (late bloomer) at 185. Then put us near Shaw and we look like children. Brian would look super thin at 250. Everyone’s structure is different 

Edited by Chez

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DAVE101
52 minutes ago, Mike Rinderle said:

Have you seen Brian Shaw without a shirt?  The man has abs at 440.  He's not walking around at 40% body fat.

hqdefault.jpg

 

54 minutes ago, Mike Rinderle said:

And Wilkes is specifically designed to make smaller people feel better about not being as strong as bigger people.  They lost the genetic lottery and want to handicap other athletes so they can claim they are stronger even though they lifted less weight.

It's this kind of pretentious and close-minded attitude that makes me want to stay away from GripBoard. What if I said "most weight lifted" is a phrase touted by people that can't squat 2x bodyweight or do 10 dead hang pull ups? It goes both ways dude. Not everybody defines "strength" the same way you do. 

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Anyonecanhappen

Grip training makes me happy

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Mike Rinderle
56 minutes ago, Chez said:

Weight is very relative. For guys like me, mike and joe - we would look very skinny at 200 lbs. I wouldn’t be able to retain much muscle at that weight. I graduated high school without ever weight training super thin and a boy (late bloomer) at 185. Then put us near Shaw and we look like children. Brian would look super thin at 250. Everyone’s structure is different 

Speak for yourself fatty.  I'm down to 240 on my way to 205.  Haha

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Mike Rinderle
19 minutes ago, DAVE101 said:

hqdefault.jpg

 

It's this kind of pretentious and close-minded attitude that makes me want to stay away from GripBoard. What if I said "most weight lifted" is a phrase touted by people that can't squat 2x bodyweight or do 10 dead hang pull ups? It goes both ways dude. Not everybody defines "strength" the same way you do. 

Lol

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Joseph Sullivan
1 hour ago, Mike Rinderle said:

Agreed.  That's why there are classes based on weight, sex, age, etc.  The whole Wilkes / Allometric thing is so someone can tell themselves they are stronger than someone who actually lifts more weight than them.

We have enough classes.  I mean, an out of shape 50 year old is our sport's 120kg North American Champ.  I'm pretty sure that shouldn't happen in any sport.  🤣

Grip is the one thing That seems to get better with age. Old man strength. You should feel the grips on some of the patients I treat in the nursing home Rindo. Grip is one of those things that age is on your side...especially if you’ve been training it for years. One of the last things to go and the longest to last barring any medical condition.

Edited by Joseph Sullivan

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Squeezus

These topics always go this way, and I know better than to stick around and argue, but weight classes and formulas don't exist to make people feel better about themselves. You might be of the opinion that the only thing that is interesting or valuable is absolute strength. You might only want to watch SHW lifters in powerlifting and weight lifting and only watch HW fights, which is fine. This does not mean that the people who are interested in relative strength are only interested because they "lost the genetic lottery" and "want to feel good about themselves". Many people are very interested in seeing the limits of their potential and human potential for a given phenotype. I think it's way cooler to watch Jennifer Thompson bench 3 plates than it is to watch Ray Williams bench 5 plates. That said, I really love watching Ray squat 1000lbs+. None of this is because I am mad that I don't weigh 400lbs.

These annoying formulas are the best means of determining how well a person has fulfilled their potential. Sure, an NBA player with 10" hands could probably lift the Inch Dumbbell without much difficulty, and it would be neat to watch, but what is more interesting to me is how much a regular sized guy could lift if they really focused and trained their ass off. John Brzenk wouldn't be as impressive of an armwrestler if he was 7ft and 450lbs. It would be interesting, but it also would just be expected that he would beat everyone. You get what I'm saying.

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Joseph Sullivan
58 minutes ago, Anyonecanhappen said:

Grip training makes me happy

Me too my man! If someone’s stronger than me... more “power” too em! Pun intended!

Edited by Joseph Sullivan

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Joseph Sullivan
2 minutes ago, Squeezus said:

These topics always go this way, and I know better than to stick around and argue, but weight classes and formulas don't exist to make people feel better about themselves. You might be of the opinion that the only thing that is interesting or valuable is absolute strength. You might only want to watch SHW lifters in powerlifting and weight lifting and only watch HW fights, which is fine. This does not mean that the people who are interested in relative strength are only interested because they "lost the genetic lottery" and "want to feel good about themselves". Many people are very interested in seeing the limits of their potential and human potential for a given phenotype. I think it's way cooler to watch Jennifer Thompson bench 3 plates than it is to watch Ray Williams bench 5 plates. That said, I really love watching Ray squat 1000lbs+. None of this is because I am mad that I don't weigh 400lbs.

These annoying formulas are the best means of determining how well a person has fulfilled their potential. Sure, an NBA player with 10" hands could probably lift the Inch Dumbbell without much difficulty, and it would be neat to watch, but what is more interesting to me is how much a regular sized guy could lift if they really focused and trained their ass off. John Brzenk wouldn't be as impressive of an armwrestler if he was 7ft and 450lbs. It would be interesting, but it also would just be expected that he would beat everyone. You get what I'm saying.

I agree with this. It is so cool to see guys like Dan and Tanner or Jerome Bloon do things no one would  ever  imagine they are capable  capable of  until witnessing it.  That’s whats great about grip. You can take some pretty average looking people and watch them do some very above average things and not be too far off from bigger guys. Grip is in a class by itself in that aspect.

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Mike Rinderle

Weight classes are awesome.  It lets us all compete against similar sized people to keep things fair.  When we start inventing formulas that allow someone who lifts half the weight of someone else to claim they're the best... that is something altogether different.  

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climber511

I'm a 93K lifter - and I think I lost the lottery.  I got Kody - Gil - and Luke to go against - I don't need the big guys to get my butt kicked :)

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Nigel Blackburn
12 hours ago, Squeezus said:

These topics always go this way, and I know better than to stick around and argue, but weight classes and formulas don't exist to make people feel better about themselves. You might be of the opinion that the only thing that is interesting or valuable is absolute strength. You might only want to watch SHW lifters in powerlifting and weight lifting and only watch HW fights, which is fine. This does not mean that the people who are interested in relative strength are only interested because they "lost the genetic lottery" and "want to feel good about themselves". Many people are very interested in seeing the limits of their potential and human potential for a given phenotype. I think it's way cooler to watch Jennifer Thompson bench 3 plates than it is to watch Ray Williams bench 5 plates. That said, I really love watching Ray squat 1000lbs+. None of this is because I am mad that I don't weigh 400lbs.

These annoying formulas are the best means of determining how well a person has fulfilled their potential. Sure, an NBA player with 10" hands could probably lift the Inch Dumbbell without much difficulty, and it would be neat to watch, but what is more interesting to me is how much a regular sized guy could lift if they really focused and trained their ass off. John Brzenk wouldn't be as impressive of an armwrestler if he was 7ft and 450lbs. It would be interesting, but it also would just be expected that he would beat everyone. You get what I'm saying.

Could not agree more. Relative strength is a thing for a reason; strength-to-bodyweight ratio is fun to discuss and argue, but ultimately, I think most of us here are just trying to maximize the potential we have regardless of bodyweight. I don't think us lightweights are claiming to be stronger than any super heavyweights throwing around twice the weight we are (as far as I know). Everyone loves getting recognized, so it's cool that the King Kong has an award for the best bodyweight performance--which is separate from the best overall lifter.

I, personally, like the format of using a formula to recognize exceptional pound-for-pound lifters. BUT, I think it should only be used if the best absolute lifter is recognized and awarded first and foremost.

 

 

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climber511
13 hours ago, Joseph Sullivan said:

Grip is the one thing That seems to get better with age. Old man strength. You should feel the grips on some of the patients I treat in the nursing home Rindo. Grip is one of those things that age is on your side...especially if you’ve been training it for years. One of the last things to go and the longest to last barring any medical condition.

Grip may get better for a while with age but I've rolled over the top and am on the downward side of the bell curve I'm afraid.  It is obviously an experiment of one but my best grip results stopped around age 65 and I have begun a slow but steady slide downwards since.  My training has not been quite as intense as before but still regular and consistent.  For what it's worth my big muscle lifts started declining much earlier.  I feel my best "all around" ( coordination, quickness, explosiveness, strength, mobility, flexibility - everything together) was around age 28 (call it athleticism).  Pure slow lift strength peaked around 40 to mid 40's maybe and by early 50s it was on the decline big time for sure.  I do have a ton of old injuries - very few from lifting - but some serious automobile wrecks (plural) have certainly left their mark and the years of walking the mail route are starting to show in my hips and knees the last couple years.  Had some health issues the last few years which hasn't helped any  but for my age I feel I'm holding fairly well due to the consistent workouts and attention to diet etc.  I look forward every single day to my workouts.

Edited by climber511
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Mike Rinderle
6 hours ago, climber511 said:

Grip may get better for a while with age but I've rolled over the top and am on the downward side of the bell curve I'm afraid.  It is obviously an experiment of one but my best grip results stopped around age 65 and I have begun a slow but steady slide downwards since.  My training has not been quite as intense as before but still regular and consistent.  For what it's worth my big muscle lifts started declining much earlier.  I feel my best "all around" ( coordination, quickness, explosiveness, strength, mobility, flexibility - everything together) was around age 28 (call it athleticism).  Pure slow lift strength peaked around 40 to mid 40's maybe and by early 50s it was on the decline big time for sure.  I do have a ton of old injuries - very few from lifting - but some serious automobile wrecks (plural) have certainly left their mark and the years of walking the mail route are starting to show in my hips and knees the last couple years.  Had some health issues the last few years which hasn't helped any  but for my age I feel I'm holding fairly well due to the consistent workouts and attention to diet etc.  I look forward every single day to my workouts.

I agree with this 100%.  I would say grip strength goes away slower than other strength, but it does start to drop.  I can definitely feel a difference between now and 7-8 years ago.

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Mike Rinderle

By the way, I'm pretty sure this makes me stronger than Brian Shaw because I don't think he can do one.  

Fat 50yo dragon flag. Level 7 Ninja $#!+

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Joseph Sullivan
40 minutes ago, Mike Rinderle said:

By the way, I'm pretty sure this makes me stronger than Brian Shaw because I don't think he can do one.  

Fat 50yo dragon flag. Level 7 Ninja $#!+

In that move yes it does.... “pound for pound”. Strength can never be measured as who is best at all because all have different abilities, bodyweights and focus of training. No one man can be the best at everything. But you already knew that Rindo.🤡

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Mike Rinderle
1 hour ago, Joseph Sullivan said:

In that move yes it does.... “pound for pound”. Strength can never be measured as who is best at all because all have different abilities, bodyweights and focus of training. No one man can be the best at everything. But you already knew that Rindo.🤡

No.  No it doesn't.  Not even close.  For instance, if Shaw used bands to subtract 200 lbs so that we weighed the same, he could probably knock out 50 of these.

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Mike Rinderle

Same with the earlier statement about 10 dead hang pullups.  Lets say there's a 200 lb guy that can knock out 10 solid reps.  On a good day, Shaw might get 1 or 2 I would guess.  Maybe 0.  According to the earlier comments, the 200 pounder is stronger.

Now, use some bands to assist Shaw by 140 lbs.  Brings him to 300 lbs.  I've got $5k that says he can now do 10 strict reps.  So who's stronger again?

Conversely, hang 240 lbs on the 200 lb guy and then see who can do the most.  If it doesn't rip the little guy's arms off.

 

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Joseph Sullivan
2 minutes ago, Mike Rinderle said:

Same with the earlier statement about 10 dead hang pullups.  Lets say there's a 200 lb guy that can knock out 10 solid reps.  On a good day, Shaw might get 1 or 2 I would guess.  Maybe 0.  According to the earlier comments, the 200 pounder is stronger.

Now, use some bands to assist Shaw by 140 lbs.  Brings him to 300 lbs.  I've got $5k that says he can now do 10 strict reps.  So who's stronger again?

Conversely, hang 240 lbs on the 200 lb guy and then see who can do the most.  If it doesn't rip the little guy's arms off.

 

The smaller guy is more efficient with his bodyweight. There are so many cool  ways we can look at it it’s mind boggling.

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Joseph Sullivan
14 minutes ago, Mike Rinderle said:

No.  No it doesn't.  Not even close.  For instance, if Shaw used bands to subtract 200 lbs so that we weighed the same, he could probably knock out 50 of these.

In speaking of his bodyweight it does. The 200 pounder if called to can do the said reps at any given moment.. the hypothetical 400 pounder couldn’t... so the 200 pounder is more  efficient using his bodyweight with his given strength. That’s like saying the 400 pounder could run faster than the 200 pounder if he stripped the weight... sure that would make them even... but at said bodyweight the 400 pounder would fail the pull up test just like the 200 pounder would fail the max weight the 400 pounder can do. Many ways to look at strength.

Edited by Joseph Sullivan
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David_wigren
8 minutes ago, Mike Rinderle said:

Same with the earlier statement about 10 dead hang pullups.  Lets say there's a 200 lb guy that can knock out 10 solid reps.  On a good day, Shaw might get 1 or 2 I would guess.  Maybe 0.  According to the earlier comments, the 200 pounder is stronger.

Now, use some bands to assist Shaw by 140 lbs.  Brings him to 300 lbs.  I've got $5k that says he can now do 10 strict reps.  So who's stronger again?

Conversely, hang 240 lbs on the 200 lb guy and then see who can do the most.  If it doesn't rip the little guy's arms off.

 

I wouldn’t be so sure about Brian being able to do 10 strict pullups. Most really big guys struggle with the range of motion due to the flesh of their arms being in the way. I would vet on Brian being able to do 10-15 reps where he almost gets his chin over the bar, and possibly 0 or just a couple where he actually does them with full range of motion. I could be wrong though. 

Edit- sorry, I misread your comment. Yeah I agree with what you said. At 300 Brian could most definitely do 10 strict pullups with ease. It would be weird if he couldn’t since there are many guys at 200 lbs that could do 10 strict pullups with 100 lbs added.

Edited by David_wigren
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