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genetics and other debates - my 2 cents


MarcoBuhl

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13 hours ago, anwnate said:

While grip sport lifts generally have a shorter ROM

This is both true and important.

Why is that important?

The one thing the axle has really going for it imo and what some people in this discussion seem actually to dislike about it is the range of motion. Having a big range of motion puts a very different strain on the grip than all the short rom lifts out there (one of the reasons why RT numbers don't translate to axle numbers). If you are not contesting a large ROM movement your not contesting a very important part of grip strength. Grip is not just about picking stuff up for 2-6 inches. Picking sh*t up from very close to the floor requires (arguably) the best grip of all. Do you really think lifting the Inch dumbbell would have been such a great and historical feat of grip strength if Thomas Inch had only picked it up 2 inches from a platform?

In favor of the large ROM lifts I would also love to see stuff like a loadable Inch lift or loadable blob/block lifts in contests.

Edited by Royz
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Hey grip guys, the following is no hate against anyone. It is in my mind and i have to write it - so it is out of my mind :-) In Grip Sport every lift, every contest is discussed without end

Over the years i have been one pushing for the inclusion of climbers - which pretty much means weight classes.  Many climbers weigh from 135 to 155 - so asking them to have a 4 plate DL is a bit much

Sorry, this got long. I've done pretty well with axle, for what I'm working with. I got within about 5 lbs of a double BW lift (pulled 295 at 150).   I wouldn't say boycotting though. For me

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bencrush
12 hours ago, Squeezus said:

What do you guys think Joe Kinney could pull on the axle?

I'd guess mid-300lbs range if he cared to do it at his peak. 

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anwnate
9 hours ago, Royz said:

 

Why is that important?

The one thing the axle has really going for it imo and what some people in this discussion seem actually to dislike about it is the range of motion. Having a big range of motion puts a very different strain on the grip than all the short rom lifts out there (one of the reasons why RT numbers don't translate to axle numbers). If you are not contesting a large ROM movement your not contesting a very important part of grip strength. Grip is not just about picking stuff up for 2-6 inches. Picking sh*t up from very close to the floor requires (arguably) the best grip of all. Do you really think lifting the Inch dumbbell would have been such a great and historical feat of grip strength if Thomas Inch had only picked it up 2 inches from a platform?

In favor of the large ROM lifts I would also love to see stuff like a loadable Inch lift or loadable blob/block lifts in contests.

 

Why is range of motion important?

Well…no sport will be 100% fair and Gripsport has all sorts of issues to contend with on that front.

If Geralt (same height as me) and I were lifting on the IronMind Hub or Blockbuster Pinch and I spread my legs outwards, I have reduced the range of motion of the legal lift.

If a stocky 5 2" guy (with big hands) goes up against Dan Fleming on the Axle and both weigh 178lbs, it's pretty likely he's going to have a shorter range of motion, giving him the lockout much sooner.

If they are set up on a Bench Press, that advantage will become even more pronounced.

In an effort to reduce/eliminate this disparity, legal lift heights were established.  Not only are legal heights more fair overall…they make it a million times easier to judge for competitions and certifications. David Horne chose 13.5" for his Griptopz implements.  American's chose 6-8" heights for the crusher, flask, etc…likely because of the heavier weights involved. 

The Grip Manufacturers of DHWOG, FBBC, BSS, and MGT all have established legal lift heights for their implements. 

Ironmind is essentially the only hold out here…much like the Axle.

Regarding the INCH.  Once again, it is considered nearly the pinnacle of Grip feats...but with the exception of tough medleys, is never contested in GripSport.

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richcottrell
25 minutes ago, anwnate said:

 

Regarding the INCH.  Once again, it is considered nearly the pinnacle of Grip feats...but with the exception of tough medleys, is never contested in GripSport.

until the game changer coming in 2019...

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beef_supreme
On 7/28/2017 at 2:48 AM, MarcoBuhl said:

Genetics:
...If people have "tiny" hands they could deal with it and train harder and do their f... best, or just quit gripsport and play chess. Thats life....

 

No doubt in terms of trying to maximize your potential regardless of the genetic setup you've bean dealt.

That said :) - hand size is not the only thing that factors in. A friend of mine has a ridiculous set of mitts on him coupled with enormous wrists and forearms.

Without any grip-specific training whatsoever he repped #2 and closed a 2.5 with a wide set after I showed him how to set it. Picked up a 45 lbs plate by the hub and a 45lbs york blob - no chalk even.  

 

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Bryan Hunsaker

@anwnate Brian Shaw does not have 10 inch hands, the way we'd measure.  They're similar in size to Odd's.  When football and basketball guys, and similar, measure, they do so from pinky to thumb which is always a lot farther - I think strongmen do the same. 

I brought up Brian Shaw to further illustrate the example of myself - strong guys typically have strong grip.  They may not be specialists, but it is pretty good.  Point being: if people would get stronger (back and all) their grip would likely go along for the ride.  I believe that grip athletes should be strong in general...not WSM strong...but not unable to deadlift 4 plates.

On the RT, Brian has historically failed in the 270s, but can probably do 250 in his sleep.  Additionally, if you agree the RT isn't the axle, then how do we supplant the axle with a rolling handle, RT or otherwise and still represent what the axle has, historically?

Growth: organization means little if the venue isn't right.  Marketing basics...the 4 Ps: product, placement, pricing, promotion.  Product - let's be honest, we don't know exactly what Gripsport is.  Placement - this is the venue.  Without good placement, the rest doesn't matter.  Pricing - in my eyes is barriers to entry.  Promotion - self explanatory.  Gripsport doesn't know exactly what it is, nor is it generally where it needs to be to grow.  We need to be at the bigger expos to foment viewership/exposure.  Most people don't even know that competing in grip is a thing, let alone that it is called Gripsport.  The placement is wrong.

Unfortunate: I mean that we cannot seem to coalesce around key events, and the problem is that there are factions in the community.  In my eyes, one of the biggest factions derives from the bodyweight misconception, and the stronger versus weaker (general body strength) competitors.  That is going to impede creating a general grip movement and require that armlifting and Gripsport remain separate, which to me makes zero sense.  It is unfortunate that such a small community is divided. 

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climber511

Over the years i have been one pushing for the inclusion of climbers - which pretty much means weight classes.  Many climbers weigh from 135 to 155 - so asking them to have a 4 plate DL is a bit much I think.  Double bodyweight does seem reasonable though to me coming from a totally different sport which places no importance on the DL..  Most climbers I know are actually fairly strong overall - but asking for a 2.5+ to a close to 3x BW DL seems excessive to me.  How many of you 280# guys can DL 3x BW?  I am in favor of keeping the Axle and may have it in Gripmas or may not but hand size - bodyweight - or back injuries will not be a deciding factor in my decision.

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3 hours ago, climber511 said:

How many of you 280# guys can DL 3x BW? 

How many guys have an 840 deadlift (natural without drugs)? My point being is that the higher the weight goes the harder it is for heavy guys to stay with lighter guys in terms of body weight ratio lifts. It always skews to the light guys. 1lb of bodyweight does not equal 1lb on the bar. It just doesn't work that way. 

Edited by Chez
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riccardomagni

It's pretty much like I said a few weeks ago:  it's like powerlifting. 

Powerlifters can choose to lift raw, classic, gear, multiply gear, drug tested, not drug tested...

And this is for the same 3 lifts!!  

I can guarantee you that a raw squat that is walked out is a different activity than a multiply squat out of a monolift.

The morale of the story is to compete where you have fun and with places/venues/contests that align to your goals.  I like the FIT EXPOS.  I liked going to Russia.  Those are big contests with lots of really strong guys.  

If I had more money, I would go to more big contests, like the SAWO Open in Finland in a week and a half.  That is going to be a ridiculous contest.  In the US, maybe Nationals or SJ5...

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climber511
2 hours ago, Chez said:

How many guys have an 840 deadlift (natural without drugs)? My point being is that the higher the weight goes the harder it is for heavy guys to stay with lighter guys in terms of body weight ratio lifts. It always skews to the light guys. 1lb of bodyweight does not equal 1lb on the bar. It just doesn't work that way. 

True but in all other aspects of the sport the big guys have ALL the advantages.  So throw the little guys a bone now and then ya whiner :)

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14 hours ago, anwnate said:

 

Why is range of motion important?

Well…no sport will be 100% fair and Gripsport has all sorts of issues to contend with on that front.

If Geralt (same height as me) and I were lifting on the IronMind Hub or Blockbuster Pinch and I spread my legs outwards, I have reduced the range of motion of the legal lift.

If a stocky 5 2" guy (with big hands) goes up against Dan Fleming on the Axle and both weigh 178lbs, it's pretty likely he's going to have a shorter range of motion, giving him the lockout much sooner.

If they are set up on a Bench Press, that advantage will become even more pronounced.

In an effort to reduce/eliminate this disparity, legal lift heights were established.  Not only are legal heights more fair overall…they make it a million times easier to judge for competitions and certifications. David Horne chose 13.5" for his Griptopz implements.  American's chose 6-8" heights for the crusher, flask, etc…likely because of the heavier weights involved. 

The Grip Manufacturers of DHWOG, FBBC, BSS, and MGT all have established legal lift heights for their implements. 

Ironmind is essentially the only hold out here…much like the Axle.

Regarding the INCH.  Once again, it is considered nearly the pinnacle of Grip feats...but with the exception of tough medleys, is never contested in GripSport.

I completely understand the reasoning behind the limited rom lifts and the crossbeams etc. And they SHOULD have a place within any grip comp imo. However that doesn't take away from the fact that a large rom lift puts your grip under a different strain and should be part of a well rounded grip comp too. And yes the shorter guy will have a shorter rom, but maybe he will lift slower or maybe his hands will be smaller or whatever. And lockouts aren't that difficult to judge, it's not rocket science (and yes there are examples of questionable decisions).

Also sometimes the lifts to crossbeams look more like a hop than actually showing mastery over the weight.

The dutch strongest hands comp had a loadable inch dumbell event and I don't think any of the competitors had a problem with the judging of the lockouts on that.

 

Edited by Royz
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Fist of Fury
3 hours ago, Royz said:

I completely understand the reasoning behind the limited rom lifts and the crossbeams etc. And they SHOULD have a place within any grip comp imo. However that doesn't take away from the fact that a large rom lift puts your grip under a different strain and should be part of a well rounded grip comp too. And yes the shorter guy will have a shorter rom, but maybe he will lift slower or maybe his hands will be smaller or whatever. And lockouts aren't that difficult to judge, it's not rocket science (and yes there are examples of questionable decisions).

Also sometimes the lifts to crossbeams look more like a hop than actually showing mastery over the weight.

The dutch strongest hands comp had a loadable inch dumbell event and I don't think any of the competitors had a problem with the judging of the lockouts on that.

 

Couldn't agree more and if you're worried about judging, dumbbells and blobs could just be lifted to a platform.

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Paul Savage

Yeah some people do look for excuses rather than just trying to work harder and out work others. I will say one thing though, the genetic thing can be annoying, it would be easy to complain. I don't, I just try my best to out work all the genetic monsters and be more consistent. Of course I would love it to be a level playing field and it just come down to who wants it more and puts more effort in, but this is not reality. Reality is genetics make a huge difference, hand size really isn't the genetics for this sport though. You can get guys that are average size, average size hands that can do all the most well known grip feats without any training. This is the genetic lottery, some people are simply born freak strong. Of course now I train with and coach Becca and using my training methods she smashes world records left right and centre, something I've never been able to do training for 15 years and her only 1 year. This is life, some have better ticket, just swallow the pride, keep working hard and be the best you that you can be.

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Cannon
13 hours ago, Fist of Fury said:

Couldn't agree more and if you're worried about judging, dumbbells and blobs could just be lifted to a platform.

Which is another contest thing I think would be awesome. Been thinking about this for a long time. Have a big teeter-totter. On one side is weight that equals 3x your own body weight. On the other side is a big bin. There are medley items all over the floor and you have to load the bin until you tip the weight and the bin is on the floor. Lighter guys will have to load less stuff, but can't necessarily put on the hardest/heaviest items. Like a Blob or Inch in the bin. If they could, the heavier the stuff they can lift, they might have an advantage. A big guy loading heavy things with each hand would also do really well. I think it would be a really cool event. Winner has the fastest time to make the bin touch the floor. 

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anwnate

@Tommy J.

I don't have the energy to respond to any of that.  I've wasted way too much time already.  I'm going to put what energy I do have into a different vision of Gripsport.

Hasta. ;) 

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3 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

none of that stuff to be 100% gripcentric.

I don't want to anger any of the purists, but nothing really is 100% gripcentric. If you think a 200+ rolling thunder doesn't require a strong back/core, than you are kiddin your self. If you think setting a 150+ gripper doesn't require lots of upperbody strength, than you are kiddin your self. etc.

However reading this thread I don't see anyone convincing anyone on the 'other side', so let's all just start training again.:rock

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Andrew Dube
12 hours ago, Cannon said:

Which is another contest thing I think would be awesome. Been thinking about this for a long time. Have a big teeter-totter. On one side is weight that equals 3x your own body weight. On the other side is a big bin. There are medley items all over the floor and you have to load the bin until you tip the weight and the bin is on the floor. Lighter guys will have to load less stuff, but can't necessarily put on the hardest/heaviest items. Like a Blob or Inch in the bin. If they could, the heavier the stuff they can lift, they might have an advantage. A big guy loading heavy things with each hand would also do really well. I think it would be a really cool event. Winner has the fastest time to make the bin touch the floor. 

This is a pretty cool idea!

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jchapman

Should there be separate classes and records for women?  They may have gotten a bad draw with their genetics, but they can just work harder.

Of course I am using this as a discussion point and not necessarily literally.  Where do most of us draw the line on the genetics (the original post) issue?

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4 hours ago, jchapman said:

Should there be separate classes and records for women?  They may have gotten a bad draw with their genetics, but they can just work harder.

Of course I am using this as a discussion point and not necessarily literally.  Where do most of us draw the line on the genetics (the original post) issue?

There are weight classes for women. SJ4 had a couple. Here is the top 100 for females on the euro per gripsport.org by weight class:

http://www.gripsport.org/lists.php?list=3&gender=2&event=4&country=all&measurement=

The only reason you don't see them listed out for comps more often is that it's hard to even get one women to show up let alone multiple 

Edited by Chez
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Cannon
3 hours ago, jchapman said:

Should there be separate classes and records for women?  They may have gotten a bad draw with their genetics, but they can just work harder.

I uh um well it's just um maybe oh gosh..

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JHenze646

I can't get that time back...

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MurrayStrongman

Genetics and the role they play will always be a debate in any strength sport, unfortunately  there is nothing you can do to alter your genes. Not every single person can have the best set of genes for their preferred activity, you have to maximize your genetic strengths and minimize your weaknesses through good technique and hard training. 

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Alawadhi
On 7/29/2017 at 10:37 PM, anwnate said:

I thought it was important to address the argument that the Axle has been in Gripsport forever...and should stay there because of that.  As I pointed out...Gripsport is a NEW SPORT...AND, they fact that something exists currently, is not an adequate argument for stagnation.  

Getting back to the actual topic word "debate", I would like to hear the "defenders" of the Gripsport Axle explain their position on its inclusion.  Power lifting does not use the Axle for it's deadlifting...because it's not Gripsport.  Why does Gripsport use the Axle to test grip...when we are not Strongman?

Personally, I feel that Gripsport is not moving forward and the Axle is one of several barriers that are holding it back.  

Sup my friend? Lets say I don't agree on these points. Didn't David Horne started a grip comp back in 1991 or close to it? As for the second bold sentence. You said it yourself. Powerlifting doesn't use Axle because it is not a GRIPSPORT. And as for the last bold sentence I don't think so. Grip sport had way waaay more people watching when the big implements were used like in mighty mitts and so on.

Just being logical here buddy.

On 8/1/2017 at 0:17 AM, Bryan Hunsaker said:

Guys, Brian Shaw picked up 250 on the RT the other day like it was a bag of groceries.  Getting stronger overall translates to improving grip strength.  Don't respond to that with "he weighs 200kg" or "He juices", which are both true, but diminish the fact that he's really strong, and that strength equates to a big RT lift without training.

Second point on the RT - it doesn't demonstrate what the axle does.  I'm using the RT universally for Crusher and Mammoth and whatever else is out there.  I've almost hit 240 on the RT righty, and 225 left.  So I should be able to do 470ish on the axle, right?  Not even close!  It is not the same lift, and it doesn't equate. @anwnate

I closed a 2.5 COC the first time I touched it, probably because I was a 400+lb bencher (and lifetime drug-free for the record).  Strength ties-in.  Not my bodyweight.  Strength. 

If Grip Sport grows, it has to have presence at Fitness shows from a regional Fit Expo to the Arnold - that is where strength contest happen.  If you want to be there, you have to put on a show.  You can't do small lifts, with small groups in small venues.  Growth is derived from putting on a show, and a show requires big lifts.  People can wrap their head around an axle deadlift.  They won't understand a coin lift, and won't stop to watch it.  It doesn't necessarily have to be an axle, but it is always a draw when it is out. 

Marco, I align with a lot of what you say.  This debate never seems to end.  We may have to have 2 sports - grip sport and armlifting.  That's unfortunate. @MarcoBuhl

I agree here and especially the bold paragraph. 

On 8/1/2017 at 0:45 AM, Squeezus said:

What do you guys think Joe Kinney could pull on the axle?

Not sure but if we believe his specific CoC#4 close on his video then we should take his other words. Like squatting 440 LB's for 60 reps and passing the Inch dumbbell effortlessly from hand to hand. So based on these claims I think he will easily do very good numbers on the Axle. (again, all his claims are just claims, not proven)

On 8/2/2017 at 0:46 AM, beef_supreme said:

No doubt in terms of trying to maximize your potential regardless of the genetic setup you've bean dealt.

That said :) - hand size is not the only thing that factors in. A friend of mine has a ridiculous set of mitts on him coupled with enormous wrists and forearms.

Without any grip-specific training whatsoever he repped #2 and closed a 2.5 with a wide set after I showed him how to set it. Picked up a 45 lbs plate by the hub and a 45lbs york blob - no chalk even.  

 

So what's your point here? Yes genetic helps a lot and we should deal with it and train harder.

On 8/2/2017 at 1:37 AM, Bryan Hunsaker said:

I brought up Brian Shaw to further illustrate the example of myself - strong guys typically have strong grip.  They may not be specialists, but it is pretty good.  Point being: if people would get stronger (back and all) their grip would likely go along for the ride.  I believe that grip athletes should be strong in general...not WSM strong...but not unable to deadlift 4 plates.

Definitely 

On the RT, Brian has historically failed in the 270s, but can probably do 250 in his sleep.  Additionally, if you agree the RT isn't the axle, then how do we supplant the axle with a rolling handle, RT or otherwise and still represent what the axle has, historically?

Yes and tied up with Steve Mobster while Steve having a very bad back if I remember right? Steve tied up with the WSM what else does this say? Just train.

 It is unfortunate that such a small community is divided. 

These things will always be there and one cannot avoid it. We should agree to disagree and all in all agree for whats the better for the sport as a whole not as the individual. 

Answer in blue above.

On 8/2/2017 at 2:10 AM, climber511 said:

Over the years i have been one pushing for the inclusion of climbers - which pretty much means weight classes.  Many climbers weigh from 135 to 155 - so asking them to have a 4 plate DL is a bit much I think.  Double bodyweight does seem reasonable though to me coming from a totally different sport which places no importance on the DL..  Most climbers I know are actually fairly strong overall - but asking for a 2.5+ to a close to 3x BW DL seems excessive to me.  How many of you 280# guys can DL 3x BW?  I am in favor of keeping the Axle and may have it in Gripmas or may not but hand size - bodyweight - or back injuries will not be a deciding factor in my decision.

The lighter you are, the easier to do more bodyweight DL/c&j and so on. So this example cannot be used. While I do agree to give one or two advantages for the lighter weight.

 

All in all, I am for the Axle. When I do my grip comp and Organization. I am for the Axle (I have a bad back myself can't dead-lift much never-mind the Axle, hmmm maybe a single hand axle?). Genetics is part of life. Get over it. Luck is also part of life. Get over it. This year WSM was won by Eddie Hall. Thor said it was a cheat they didn't count his one rep the viking press which if they did he wouldd've won. Brian Shaw got injured and IMO would've won it if no injury. So luck plays a part also. What written for you will happen. Train hard.We need whats better for the sports as a WHOLE. Let's not just look at what I want or need.

Edited by Alawadhi
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Marketing and money will grow grip. Pushing for more grip in Crossfit will grow grip. Grassroots efforts might grow grip. 

 

None of these have anything to do with the axle. 

To set a woldrecord on the axle in the 59, 66, 74 or 83kg class requires a double bodyweight deadlift. Which is easily obtainable while still staying skinny. 

 

Take my example I was able to deadlift 160kg x 2 @ somewhere between 71 and 75kg and 5' 11'' which means really skinny. 

Yet I never did any strength training for more than 12 months without major breaks. 

Which tells me, that level of deadlift can't be that hard to achieve. 

 

Now my back is well beyond repair and I might never be able to do any heavy deadlifting again. But I don't try to bent a sport to cater to my special needs. Which in turn would mean disrespecting the efforts of anyone who put up any number on the axle in the last 15 years. 

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Alawadhi

^ Agree especially the last part!

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