genetics and other debates - my 2 cents

[MarcoBuhl]

Hey grip guys,

the following is no hate against anyone. It is in my mind and i have to write it - so it is out of my mind :-)

In Grip Sport every lift, every contest is discussed without end.  Including hate and rage.

Overall:
There are 3 or 4 weight classes - fine! I personally think weight classes are overrated in gripsport - but it is ok.
Overall winner is the guy who lifted the most weight. e.G.: 93k winner has lifted more than 120k winner, then
93k guy is overall champ.

Genetics:
Talking about handsize or any other bodypart wich are genetics, is waste of time. There are many
events in wich handsize doesn't play a role. 20mm Gripper oder silver Bullet, Half a penny, stub, Hub, tipstester, wrist things like
levering oder RT thumbless, bending...

If people have "tiny" hands they could deal with it and train harder and do their f... best, or just quit gripsport and play chess. Thats life.
People with short legs don't run 100m in WR time,  people with long arms and flat chest will never push WR on the bench, people with short d.... don't get an award for the best pornstar...
If your dream is too be good in a sport you are not made for: look at Muggsy Bogues...

People often say:  "it is unfair you have big hands - if i have big hands i could beat you or be strong like you"...
Are there people in powerlifting who say: "it is unfair your leverage is way better"...? Yeah why don't put leverage in the scoring system...

Axle deadlift:
My lower back is a genetically peace of shit - but i would never speak against Axle Deadlift. Because it is a basic and the most popular lift in grip or strongman. I will never be a good deadlifter compared to others.
Light guys with no lifting background have to start lifting instead of hating against events that are world standard since decades... Every man can achieve double bodyweight deadlift.

It is not unfair - you are born with it. Every man / woman has it.
There are people who close #3 after few weeks and there are people who close #3 after years. Unfair? No. Instead of looking for excuses start to train!

Be proud of yourself and give your best in every situation. And don't make things too complicate. Life is complicate enough!

Gamechanger:
little secret at the end: If you have small hands - your key is your wrist. Get wrists of steel and you could beat everybody!

cheers
Marco

 

[KapMan]

So.much.YES

[Chez]

12 hours ago, MarcoBuhl said:

There are people who close #3 after few weeks

 

In all seriousness. Well said and I agree. 

Edited July 28, 2017 by Chez

[Kluv#0]

12 hours ago, MarcoBuhl said:

Hey grip guys,

the following is no hate against anyone. It is in my mind and i have to write it - so it is out of my mind :-)

In Grip Sport every lift, every contest is discussed without end.  Including hate and rage.

Overall:
There are 3 or 4 weight classes - fine! I personally think weight classes are overrated in gripsport - but it is ok.
Overall winner is the guy who lifted the most weight. e.G.: 93k winner has lifted more than 120k winner, then
93k guy is overall champ.

Genetics:
Talking about handsize or any other bodypart wich are genetics, is waste of time. There are many
events in wich handsize doesn't play a role. 20mm Gripper oder silver Bullet, Half a penny, stub, Hub, tipstester, wrist things like
levering oder RT thumbless, bending...

If people have "tiny" hands they could deal with it and train harder and do their f... best, or just quit gripsport and play chess. Thats life.
People with short legs don't run 100m in WR time,  people with long arms and flat chest will never push WR on the bench, people with short d.... don't get an award for the best pornstar...
If your dream is too be good in a sport you are not made for: look at Muggsy Bogues...

People often say:  "it is unfair you have big hands - if i have big hands i could beat you or be strong like you"...
Are there people in powerlifting who say: "it is unfair your leverage is way better"...? Yeah why don't put leverage in the scoring system...

Axle deadlift:
My lower back is a genetically peace of shit - but i would never speak against Axle Deadlift. Because it is a basic and the most popular lift in grip or strongman. I will never be a good deadlifter compared to others.
Light guys with no lifting background have to start lifting instead of hating against events that are world standard since decades... Every man can achieve double bodyweight deadlift.

It is not unfair - you are born with it. Every man / woman has it.
There are people who close #3 after few weeks and there are people who close #3 after years. Unfair? No. Instead of looking for excuses start to train!

Be proud of yourself and give your best in every situation. And don't make things too complicate. Life is complicate enough!

Gamechanger:
little secret at the end: If you have small hands - your key is your wrist. Get wrists of steel and you could beat everybody!

cheers
Marco

 

Nobody is complaining about hand size- any suggestion some are quick to provide editorials. Only a handful are complaining about axle DL but the debate is healthy. Everything else you mentioned is well-thought out

[KapMan]

Just now, Kluv#0 said:

Nobody is complaining about hand size- any suggestion some are quick to provide editorials. Only a handful are complaining about axle DL but the debate is healthy. Everything else you mentioned is well-thought out

Not true sir. Aside from axle the second most debated topic is hand size and how to cater to it. 

[Kluv#0]

Just now, KapMan said:

Not true sir. Aside from axle the second most debated topic is hand size and how to cater to it. 

Have not seen it so I take your word. I stand corrected

[KapMan]

5 minutes ago, Kluv#0 said:

Have not seen it so I take your word. I stand corrected

Its normally intertwined with other debates  i dont think its ever been a stand alone thread on the board, atleast not since ive joined

[RiotGrip]

17 hours ago, KapMan said:

Its normally intertwined with other debates  i dont think its ever been a stand alone thread on the board, atleast not since ive joined

As a long time early member, hand size certainly has had some stand alone threads, but you are correct that it is mostly intertwined with other debates.

 

As for genetics, hand size is not the genetic marker that really matters in grip(although hands that are very small or very large will give some disadvantages on certain grip feats).  The percentage of fast twitch muscle fibers in your wrist and finger flexors play a much bigger role in how strong your grip can be than hand size.  Also, overall body size does make a difference, all other things being equal(specifically fast twitch muscle percentages) a bigger framed man will have a higher ultimate potential in grip than a smaller framed man. 

Another important factor in genetics is that roughly 11% of all healthy individuals do not experience muscle hypertrophy through any normal training--they can get stronger, but it is only through neurologic and chemical pathways.  If you are in that 11%, not only are you  not going break any strength records in grip or otherwise no matter how hard you work--you likely won't even get strong enough to impress the layman at a bar.   Just like you aren't going to dunk a basketball if you are 4'8" tall no matter what else you have going for you.

The one thing that is different in grip is that these genetic differences make less of a difference in our sport than other sports such as powerlifting and strongman.  A lot of average sized guys with good genetics can excel in grip.

[anwnate]

On 7/28/2017 at 2:48 AM, MarcoBuhl said:

Axle deadlift:
My lower back is a genetically peace of shit - but i would never speak against Axle Deadlift. Because it is a basic and the most popular lift in grip or strongman. I will never be a good deadlifter compared to others.
Light guys with no lifting background have to start lifting instead of hating against events that are world standard since decades... Every man can achieve double bodyweight deadlift.

I appreciate much of what you have written.  However, I take huge issue to the paragraph above.

The idea that one should not "speak out against the Axle"  implies that this lift is somehow sacrosanct.  That's ludicrous.

Use of the words "hating against" somehow implies that anyone disagreeing with an opinion is A...wrong and B...has an axe to grind.  I find this ludicrous also.

 

The "clean and press" was an Olympic sport for decades before it was removed it in the 70's.  

Progress means moving forward, not treading water because the water is already there.

GripSport is in it's INFANCY and has NOT been around for decades like in strongman.

At best, it started being somewhat organized in 2004.

The fact that the Axle got tied into Gripsport early says nothing as to it being the best test of "support" grip.

It's popularity has quite a lot to do with it being an impressive feat to witness.

It is that.  But the fact remains that it's more of an "all over body" lift, than a "grip lift."  Feel free to go ahead and argue that.

If we are to embrace Gripsport...as Grip Sport, it makes little sense to include lifts from other disciplines.

 

 

 

[anwnate]

54 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

Nate, not to sit here and fling shit at you, but a couple things of note to your response here.

first, notice that there is a bit of a language barrier here. When this guy says "speak out against the axle" he surely isnt meaning it as literal as you have tried to imply. No. He is not trying to imply the lift is sacrosanct. And you know this. But instead took an opportunity to try and look witty by a pun on a language barrier. 

Let me do a quick translation so nobody shits their pants like Nate did when reading Marcos post.

speak out against the axle=bitching about the axle.

 

hating against=whining about 

 

now, hopefully no one else can become as devastated when reading.

Tommy...it's quite possible that I take things too literally.  My wife constantly tells me this.

Understand though, that your very translations are still loaded statements.

Many proponents of the inclusion of the Axle in Gripsport, perceive any interest to the contrary as "bitching" or "whining about"...simply because their view is not agreed with.

In other words, as opposed to a detailed discussion about the merits of the inclusion of the Axle in Gripsport, many people take on a tone of derision toward those who believe differently.

The prevailing attitude from that (vocal) camp is that people need to "man up" or simply not participate if they don't like the Axle in Gripsport.  It's pretty much the attitude of someone who can't come up with an adequate argument to defend their position.

I thought it was important to address the argument that the Axle has been in Gripsport forever...and should stay there because of that.  As I pointed out...Gripsport is a NEW SPORT...AND, they fact that something exists currently, is not an adequate argument for stagnation.  

Getting back to the actual topic word "debate", I would like to hear the "defenders" of the Gripsport Axle explain their position on its inclusion.  Power lifting does not use the Axle for it's deadlifting...because it's not Gripsport.  Why does Gripsport use the Axle to test grip...when we are not Strongman?

A one handed rolling handle pull is much more body friendly and frankly...gripcentric.  

This is an incredibly important point of argument, but even if one refuses to acknowledge this, I'm still of the opinion that the Axle is an actual barrier to the spread of Gripsport.

The Axle deters more newbies than it draws, and often puts competitors pulling with stronger grips than their bodies can handle.  This could potentially lead to more injuries, some permanent.

Personally, I feel that Gripsport is not moving forward and the Axle is one of several barriers that are holding it back.  But I well acknowledge, that not everyone in Grip is interested in changing the existing structure to grow the sport...or making changes period.

[Bill Piche]

23 hours ago, Chez said:

 

In all seriousness. Well said and I agree. 

Most probably don't know the story of Steve Weiner and I thinking Heath Sexton was a troll.  BOY were we wrong!

Heath was the first MashMonster. He was vaporizing 3's in a super fast time (he would have to pipe in just how fast it was).  You can see where Heath is now on the MM ladder.  

[anwnate]

14 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

All bs aside, i am about to crush your whole argument in about 1 sentence. But first, id like to point out your whole reasoning for wanting to rid gripsport of the axle. ..the main one you keep clinging to anyways. Which is the notion that the axle is a hinderance to the growth of gripsport.. and that it is a deterrent to growth.

without further ado, my 1 response to that is ....(drumroll)

show me 1 person who decided to not compete in, or quit gripsport due to the axle dead in comps.

 

if you cant (which im fairly positive you cant point me in the direction of 1 person who chose the axle deadlift as thier reason not to compete), then your argument that axle is a hindrance to growth is completely null and void.

 

1 minute ago, Tommy J. said:

Another point i made in the last debate that apparently everyone intentionally overlooked, was the fact that the overzealous use of the word "growth" around here is nothing more than a scapegoat to help sell new (or not so new) ideas to impose on the entire sport.

 

example- "if you guys won't allow me to introduce my new master plan into the sport, then you dont want to see the sport grow".          Bullshit! That is a chickenshit way to debate, and everyone knows it.

 

first off, why is there a select handful that believe they know better than the muster about the growth of this sport?

 

the majority says the axle should stay. Its been voted on in multiple ways. So what with the further bitching about it?

 

Sigh.

[Stephen Ruby]

One thing I like most about this sport is that not all the contests are the same. This is one thing that distinguishes it from say a powerlifting meet and makes it more like a strongman competition. I really enjoy that not everyone runs the same events at a contest and I hope that stays with the sport. One of the biggest international contests in king kong doesn't feature the axle so if your really not a fan of that you can always do contests that don't have that event. I'm looking forward to competing at SS18 which wont feature the axle but instead a revolving handle yet I'm also excited to hopefully qualify for nationals which will feature the axle. I feel having variety is what makes this sport  interesting and fun for me. 

[KapMan]

So it begins..

[Squeezus]

Until one has promoted a large contest, it is difficult to fully understand the realities of certain events until you are coordinating them with dozens of people, many of whom are unfamiliar with grip sport.

[Chez]

2 hours ago, Wannagrip said:

Most probably don't know the story of Steve Weiner and I thinking Heath Sexton was a troll.  BOY were we wrong!

Heath was the first MashMonster. He was vaporizing 3's in a super fast time (he would have to pipe in just how fast it was).  You can see where Heath is now on the MM ladder.  

You most not know the story of chez 😜. I'm actually one of those people. I closed the #3 In 5 weeks. That is why I made those faces because I'm one of those people. Grippers just click for me

Edited July 29, 2017 by Chez

[Bearcat 74]

3 hours ago, Wannagrip said:

Most probably don't know the story of Steve Weiner and I thinking Heath Sexton was a troll.  BOY were we wrong!

Heath was the first MashMonster. He was vaporizing 3's in a super fast time (he would have to pipe in just how fast it was).  You can see where Heath is now on the MM ladder.  

It was a few weeks after I got the #3 that I first closed it, I can't remember how many 3-4 I think. 

 

I was for sure a troll, no 2 ways about it. 

[Chez]

4 minutes ago, Bearcat 74 said:

It was a few weeks after I got the #3 that I first closed it, I can't remember how many 3-4 I think. 

 

I was for sure a troll, no 2 ways about it. 

Ya. The #3 is a cute gripper 😀

[Cannon]

On 7/28/2017 at 2:30 PM, KapMan said:

Not true sir. Aside from axle the second most debated topic is hand size and how to cater to it. 

I think it's important that, so far, it's not being catered to. 

[Cannon]

6 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

 

show me 1 person who decided to not compete in, or quit gripsport due to the axle dead in comps.

 

if you cant (which im fairly positive you cant point me in the direction of 1 person who chose the axle deadlift as thier reason not to compete), then your argument that axle is a hindrance to growth is completely null and void.

Me. If axle is an event, I won't go. 

I also stopped chasing an elite total in any weight class solely because of axle. 

[Mikael Siversson]

Different thickbar lifts will affect people with back issues differently. I have to see my chiropractor every time I practice inch trainer types lifts or any other heavy one hand lift (does not stop me doing them though) whereas axle deadlifts cause no issues at all. At the end of the day there is enough variety in grip competitions to keep most happy most of the time. Complaining that your axle deadlifts are not representative of your thickbar strength simply because you don't want to put in the effort and gain some weight to have at least half-decent overall body strength (as opposed to concerns about a real injury preventing deadlifting) is ridiculous. 

[Boulderbrew]

6 hours ago, Tommy J. said:

show me 1 person who decided to not compete in, or quit gripsport due to the axle dead in comps.

After competing at nationals this year, I realized how bad I am at deadlifting. I have no interest in weightlifting because I can't afford to gain weight and compromise my rock climbing. If a comp other than Nationals was to use the axle, I probably wouldn't attend. nothing against the axle, I think it's badass and fun to watch, but on the front page of the gripboard, the forum is described as "A forum for all grip strength buffs out there: Climbers, strongmen, judo players, you name it. If you want to discuss grip, this is the place!" I just so happen to be someone who acquired a strong grip from climbing. If this is to be a community that is inclusive of grip athletes from all backgrounds, then we really shouldn't have strongman style events. To be  fair/ consistent I don't think we should have any pull up/hanging events either. What is the disadvantage of being a purist? I can't really see a downside to being in favor of pure grip-centric events. I don't mean to ruffle any feathers. I realize that I am new to the sport, and that my opinions may be unwelcome because I don't have as much experience. 

[KapMan]

35 minutes ago, Boulderbrew said:

What is the disadvantage of being a purist? 

Nothing imo. 

[KapMan]

1 hour ago, Mikael Siversson said:

Different thickbar lifts will affect people with back issues differently. I have to see my chiropractor every time I practice inch trainer types lifts or any other heavy one hand lift (does not stop me doing them though) whereas axle deadlifts cause no issues at all. At the end of the day there is enough variety in grip competitions to keep most happy most of the time. Complaining that your axle deadlifts are not representative of your thickbar strength simply because you don't want to put in the effort and gain some weight to have at least half-decent overall body strength (as opposed to concerns about a real injury preventing deadlifting) is ridiculous. 

Who here doesnt want to put effort into it? The lack of effort isnt in question. 

but you proved nates point. 

 

Edited July 30, 2017 by KapMan

[KapMan]

31 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

I supposed if everyone had this pure approach, i could not argue. But unfortunately it is not true.. while everyone who opposes the axle in comp claims it to be unpure (or whatever word you like. Lets not focus too diligently on exact words), many of those SAME folks will also recommend sprinting between stations in comps, or other similar random obstacles, as Matt did above. And while i do dig the idea of extra effort other than grip (like Matt suggested with the running to stations etc) it does not fall in line with the argument that axle is disengenuine to grip and is not true to grip.

...does that make sense?

 

i guess my point is, lets not play just the tip with purism. For those of you that claim pure grip tests, go all in or stfu.

Smh

Edited July 30, 2017 by KapMan