richcottrell Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 An unseasoned POV on seasoning pinch grip tools New guy idea; after hearing the dilemmas of seasoning of steel pinch euros and hubs and then being in the community for the introduction of the Flask, I think I understand the main problem is this: We seek Consistency in these "friction" lifts. They are contested to be about the person's true pinch strength and not the friction of the implement. At SJ4 there was still controversy over the finish and texture of the Flasks. Nate had 4 (or5) Flasks on loan for the competition in addition to his own. One was mine which was practically new. I do not know when the decision was made to "un-season" them all, but I can tell you this, I was at Nate's a week or two before the competition and clearly some Flasks had an amazing texture from being used, while mine was much more smooth as I never really used it. There is clearly craft in getting that aluminum to cake with chalk to create a little texture. (I wish Nate and I took pictures) I do not know whose Flask was used on the "heavy" platform at SJ4, but there was clearly an issue over it's seasoning or lack there of... Here is my new guy idea to lesson the question of seasoning: Why not everyone agree to put a "ultra fine" grit sandpaper on the Flask and get over the whole "conditioning" problem.... Then for a comp you just start with a fresh piece of sandpaper. I am talking about the sandpaper that has an adhesive backing so it goes on like a big sticker. So you pick which grit makes the most sense (say over 200 grit), and then that becomes the standard texture to expect for a competition. Then for the day of the competition, simply a new price of sandpaper is "installed" on the Flask. Sure this might change the record books, but in most any sport rules change to move the sport forward. It is just an idea, and I am sure the different brands of sandpaper would have to be tested to make sure everyone can have a similar texture. the idea of the sandpaper is this, can we create a texture that is repeatable, dependable, accessible, and reliable. BTW, the original name for this post was going to be "Sandardization" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anwnate Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Haha...cool name. While an interesting idea, we need to keep things less complicated. If even workable, your idea will come with it's own litany of issues and we will be back where we started. 2 things. 1. The decision to remove the "seasoning" was an easy one. We need to start on a level playing field. 2. The finish of the Flask in question (heavy platform) wasn't really the issue here. There were two camps of thought on that flask. One camp wanted to build and pull on a chalk foundation. One camp wanted to remove it and pull with little to no chalk. This is a situation that is impossible to reconcile. Had I known that this issue existed...I would have simply calibrated another flask and designated that one as a "little to no" chalk flask. I'm 90+% certain this would have taken care of the issue. As it is...I think a valuable lesson was learned here. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Scibelli Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 The amount that people sweat from their hands I think plays a big part in how much chalk they like on an implement. Weirdly enough I don't sweat barely at all from my hands and I like lots of chalk. My son is the complete opposite and sweats like crazy from his hand, but does not prefer a chalky surface. It would be interesting to hear from other people to see if that is a common thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Rich Please try out the sandpaper idea and report back to us. I'm not discounting it but like Nate am not sure it won't bring with it a new set of problems. Seasoning has been discussed many many many times. I have tried everything I can think of and have come to believe a "chromed" surface may be the only answer for absolute equality. What many don't know because they haven't had a chance to lift on several Euros side by side is that "roughness" is not a good indicator or what can be lifted on a particular apparatus - too rough is worse than "just right" - too much chalk is worse than the "right" amount of chalk when the weights get heavy but does help at lighter to moderate weights. I have a Flask but have not experimented with it to the degree I have the Euros as to seasoning it. As a point of interest my personal Euro has been chromed with a light industrial chrome for over a decade now and some heavy weights have been lifted on it. I have tried clean plates (really clean) - clean hands (cleaned with all kinds of cleaners) - chalked lightly - chalked heavily - even tried a few different tacky's (you can't lift much of anything with tacky) - I tried 4 different ones :). I have experimented extensively - probably more so than most people - as Pres. Trump says - "who knew this stuff could be so complicated"? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fist of Fury Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Whether chalk is good or not depends on the material. I never chalk stainless steel, like the LGC handle, it makes it harder. Actually sweaty hands makes my grip better on that implement. For competition you have to adapt, it really comes down to that. That's part of basically all sports, tennis players play on different surfaces, hockey players play on different sized rinks etc. You just have to adapt to the circumstances, the best man/woman will win. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IROC-Z Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I've never been to a contest where a Flask was used, but I do train with one on a weekly basis and I'm wondering how it's even possible to get a bunch of chalk to cling to this implement? I don't use a whole lot of chalk for pinch lifts, but even after a year of use, my Flask doesn't have hardly any chalk clinging to it. If I wipe it lightly with a soft rag, it pretty much looks the same as the day Gil sent it to me. I'm thinking you would almost have to wet the chalk down to get it to cling to the Flask and create a huge buildup on that surface. Is that the type of surface most lifters are after? Personally, I prefer to lift on a Flask that doesn't have a bunch of buildup on it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acromegaman Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 If consistency of flask finishes is an issue then I would say to start bead blasting them before they leave the manufacturer and always use that particular grit media. And as far as seasoning goes, yes I can get a quick base coat of chalk to adhere to the flask but that base coat does little to nothing for me. It takes several weeks of use before I am totally happy with the seasoning and it ends up looking almost like fingerprints that are raised on the flask. Ultimately it is up to the person who is competing to make due with the seasoning before their pull. I know that oftentimes it will be not very optimal but just make it the best you can get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richcottrell Posted July 19, 2017 Author Share Posted July 19, 2017 What if you could bring your own Flask? Discus throwers get to use their own. Same with a shot put. while the flask is larger then a discus, it is lighter then a shot put. And it is way smaller then a javelin... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anwnate Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Just now, richcottrell said: What if you could bring your own Flask? Discus throwers get to use their own. Same with a shot put. while the flask is larger then a discus, it is lighter then a shot put. And it is way smaller then a javelin... I'm not sure you are serious. Both the discus and shot are not friction lifts. It's imperative that the contestants use the same implements as much as possible. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KapMan Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 1 minute ago, anwnate said: I'm not sure you are serious. Both the discus and shot are not friction lifts. It's imperative that the contestants use the same implements as much as possible. If thats the case then everyones perfect seasoning goes out the window. No chalk on anything. Everyone starts on the same slick ass implement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jared Goguen Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 50 minutes ago, IROC-Z said: I've never been to a contest where a Flask was used, but I do train with one on a weekly basis and I'm wondering how it's even possible to get a bunch of chalk to cling to this implement? I don't use a whole lot of chalk for pinch lifts, but even after a year of use, my Flask doesn't have hardly any chalk clinging to it. If I wipe it lightly with a soft rag, it pretty much looks the same as the day Gil sent it to me. I'm thinking you would almost have to wet the chalk down to get it to cling to the Flask and create a huge buildup on that surface. Is that the type of surface most lifters are after? Personally, I prefer to lift on a Flask that doesn't have a bunch of buildup on it. Maybe its my cold, damp northwest basement but or its the chalk I use but my chalk sticks to everything. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Juncker Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 In each contest i have been to the promoter has put the onus on the competitor to chalk the flask to their liking. This seems reasonable to me, and it's so hard to replicate training in a contest setting anyway - the chalking is just another factor to deal with on that day. Seasoning is so subjective, I just give it a few feels before I decide to add chalk or not. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kluv#0 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 27 minutes ago, Jared Goguen said: Maybe its my cold, damp northwest basement but or its the chalk I use but my chalk sticks to everything. That looks nice. I cant seem to get chalk to adhere to my flask, so I just chalk my hands and slap the flask Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KapMan Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 24 minutes ago, Kluv#0 said: That looks nice. I cant seem to get chalk to adhere to my flask, so I just chalk my hands and slap the flask Me either lol i just use it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob McMurren Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I didn't use any chalk at all on my hands on the heavy platform. There was some on the flask but it was minimal. I pulled 43 kg and lost 45 on the way down. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Doesn't @Squeezus already go to great lengths to make the finished surface of the flask consistent? If you start taking sandpaper to the implement, I think that would void any hope for comparison to past/future lifts and records. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 1 hour ago, acromegaman said: If consistency of flask finishes is an issue then I would say to start bead blasting them before they leave the manufacturer and always use that particular grit media. And as far as seasoning goes, yes I can get a quick base coat of chalk to adhere to the flask but that base coat does little to nothing for me. It takes several weeks of use before I am totally happy with the seasoning and it ends up looking almost like fingerprints that are raised on the flask. Ultimately it is up to the person who is competing to make due with the seasoning before their pull. I know that oftentimes it will be not very optimal but just make it the best you can get it. Again, the flask finish is already consistent from the manufacturer. Every single one has been prepped by Gil in exactly the same manner. It's not luck of the draw for whatever wholesale aluminum stock he happens to purchase. He's putting a finished surface on every Flask. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richcottrell Posted July 19, 2017 Author Share Posted July 19, 2017 41 minutes ago, Cannon said: Doesn't @Squeezus already go to great lengths to make the finished surface of the flask consistent? If you start taking sandpaper to the implement, I think that would void any hope for comparison to past/future lifts and records. Matt, just for clarity, My proposal was not to sand the Flask, but to attach a "fine" grit sandpaper to the flask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 5 minutes ago, richcottrell said: Matt, just for clarity, My proposal was not to sand the Flask, but to attach a "fine" grit sandpaper to the flask. Oh, gotcha I don't personally like that idea, but that's just me. Seems unnecessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeezus Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 1 hour ago, Cannon said: Doesn't @Squeezus already go to great lengths to make the finished surface of the flask consistent? If you start taking sandpaper to the implement, I think that would void any hope for comparison to past/future lifts and records. I do put the same finish on the Flasks when I make them using the same grit material and the same sanding tool. I have been doing this since I made the first one, to eliminate the device as a variable when it comes to comparing lifts globally. There are things that affect friction and cannot reasonably be controlled for, like humidity, chalk preference, hand moisture, ambient temperature, etc. Eliminating the bare surface texture from the equation is the best that I as a manufacturer can do to even the playing field between athletes. Using coatings creates an issue similar to what IronMind has experienced with hubs and Blockbusters, and using mild steel creates a situation where oxidation can vary friction. This is why I chose to use aluminum with a factory applied roughness. Adhering sandpaper to the surface instead will not make things any better because athletes will still be able to vary the amount and kind of chalk they use and the atmospheric conditions will also have an effect. I do not think this solve any issues. I have a video at the bottom of the product page (and on my youtube) that demonstrates the way to get a really good coat of chalk on a bare device. At SJ4, all of the Flasks were cleaned and then a very good coat of chalk was uniformly applied before the event started. Any subsequent difference between the platforms was due to athletes removing the chalk themselves. I did see a scotchbrite pad and a wet towel at a few points. I personally did have some trouble with the chalk, but it was on every device. Having any loose chalk on the device or much chalk on my hands made things slippery. This is a factor that cannot be controlled for besides requiring a specific brand of chalk be used, which cannot be reasonably enforced and only serves to create a burden on promoters. Perhaps, for large competitions, there should be a promoter-provided dry towel that stays on the platform that can be used to remove loose chalk from the device and that's it. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kluv#0 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 2 hours ago, Rob McMurren said: I didn't use any chalk at all on my hands on the heavy platform. There was some on the flask but it was minimal. I pulled 43 kg and lost 45 on the way down. Good old fashion horsepower!! great lifts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acromegaman Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 5 hours ago, Cannon said: Again, the flask finish is already consistent from the manufacturer. Every single one has been prepped by Gil in exactly the same manner. It's not luck of the draw for whatever wholesale aluminum stock he happens to purchase. He's putting a finished surface on every Flask. I understand that but if there is any doubt over his surface being anything but uniform on every single flask he sells/ sold it could be easily resolved by a particular pressure and media combo on a bead blaster. They could also be easily refinished. It was merely a suggestion and I do not have a problem with the flask myself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richcottrell Posted July 19, 2017 Author Share Posted July 19, 2017 8 hours ago, anwnate said: I'm not sure you are serious. Both the discus and shot are not friction lifts. It's imperative that the contestants use the same implements as much as possible. Good point about them not being lifts... but as to the second point as a single implement to pull on, then that would also apply to the idea of one Flask for heavy chalk and one for less chalk.... so we are back to where we started. but if all the Flasks are standardized, why would two be OK but not using your personal on? not trying to fight, just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acromegaman Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Maybe before the flask is contested it can be sent back to Gil for resurfacing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 None of this is likely to happen - promoters have enough to deal with getting a contest put together. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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