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Best Lifter vs Overall? Discuss.


Squeezus

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climber511

Take aways

  1. Chez is dense - heck I knew that :)
  2. Big guys don't think being big helps and want absolute numbers used
  3. Smaller guys like formulas - it gives them a chance
  4. Two hand pinch is weight sensitive
  5. All fat bar is hand size sensitive
  6. The 93 K class is stacked (I know that - I have to compete with these guys)
  7. Chad Woodall is one strong SOB (but I beat him in an event once LOL)
  8. No one is exactly happy as is
  9. Except honey badger - honey badger don't care - honey badger don't give a s... (watched that again last night :))
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Hand size has been discussed "to death" in the past - every few years it comes back - a shit storm ensues and we move on again.  We had hand size classes for several years - many different ideas were

It seems like there's been a real interest in finding the overall winner, which is cool.  However, I don't think taking any formulas from other sports is the way to do it.  Here's why I feel that way.

As someone who doesn't compete in grip sports events, but has taken an interest from a distance, my thoughts are aligned with @climber511 to an extent. I think that having weight classes and then an o

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5 minutes ago, climber511 said:

Chez is dense - heck I knew that :)

I prefer big boned, curvy or full figured :D

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Boulderbrew
1 hour ago, Mikael Siversson said:

Weight matters a lot when you take it too the limit. Get down to 10% or less body fat and then get back to us. A few of us have actually tried. I am most competitive at 74k but stronger at 83k. Jedd tried 105k but could certainly not duplicate his 2hp numbers in 120k+ in competition. Eric dropped down to 74k and saw a big drop in the 2Hp. Believe it or not but its not easy to put up big numbers in the 2hp when you your fingers loose all meat on them.

THIS ^^^  being more muscular clearly makes an overall difference.  Don't get me wrong though, I could care less about the weight class thing. I would be fine with no weight classes. Just declare an overall winner. 

All that being said, in an ideal world everyone would compete in their "lean bodyweight" weight class.

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temmmeeee
3 hours ago, Boulderbrew said:

in an ideal world everyone would compete in their "lean bodyweight" weight class.

If only food and booze wasn't so great:( lmao

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18 minutes ago, temmmeeee said:

If only food and booze wasn't so great:( lmao

I'll drink to that! Already two beers in anyway. 

Edited by Chez
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Rob McMurren
18 minutes ago, Chez said:

I'll drink to that! Already two beers in anyway. 

there should be a formula that includes beer intake.  I'd be in the running every contest

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bencrush
On ‎7‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 7:08 AM, Squeezus said:

Hey y'all, rather than hijack the SJ4 results thread with a topic that seems to have the potential to turn into a Joe Kinney Euro Axle thing, I thought we could make a dedicated thread for discussing the finer points of determining the best lifter at a grip competition. Let's keep it civil.

Aaaand go!

I also understand the formulas used (USAWA uses their own version for all contests that factors in age, bodyweight, and gender) in grip contests and other strength contests.  But in a grip contest, I think we should stick with weight classes - which we have - and the "best lifter" is the one that has the highest score regardless of bodyweight, hand size, gender, or age.  We can argue (and I am not dismissing these arguments) all day about whether a guy with 8.5" long hand who pulls 200lbs on the 2.5" Crusher is a better lifter than a guy with 7.5" hands who pulls 175lbs.  It gets into a hand size and bodyweight argument with no end in sight. 

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bencrush
On ‎7‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 8:29 PM, Eric Roussin said:

One thing that I don't like about the idea of hand size in a formula (or for the separation of classes) is that it can be tricky to measure someone's hand. For example, let's assume a class division for those with hands longer than 8 inches and one for those with hands 8 inches or less in length. If your hand is a hair over 8 inches, you may be tempted to just slightly curl your hand so that it measures a hair under 8 inches. There would obviously be big advantages to doing this.

I have a feeling that, as opposed to the length of perhaps other body parts, some people in the grip community may be tempted to exaggerate the size of their hands towards shorter rather than longer. 

This is a pic of my fake hand measurement. Stretched as much as possible, my hand measures somewhere between 8 and 3/16 and 8 and 1/4 inches. But as you can see, I could potentially trick someone into thinking my hand measures less than 8 inches.

IMG_1529.JPG

I agree that it would be hard to take people on their word for hand size measurements.  Definitely one of those things that I have seen guys claim a smaller hand size than what they claimed in another place (someone measured it) and then one guy even "forgets" what hand size he has claimed and goes back and forth between the "small" hand size and his actual hand size at other times.  Claiming a smaller hand size of course makes whatever feats he does that much more impressive. 

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Mikael Siversson
11 hours ago, Boulderbrew said:

THIS ^^^  being more muscular clearly makes an overall difference.  Don't get me wrong though, I could care less about the weight class thing. I would be fine with no weight classes. Just declare an overall winner. 

All that being said, in an ideal world everyone would compete in their "lean bodyweight" weight class.

There was never any question really about the overall winner in absolute terms when Chad made gripsport somewhat predictably boring. With him competing again (should he decide to do so) the poorly supported notion that grip strength increases somehow levels off after 90 odd kg would dissappear in an instant. Most involved in these discussions (size vs grip strength) came on to the GB after the Chad era.

Edited by Mikael Siversson
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I mean I really like the idea of a Wilk's for grip.

 

But I think it's way, way to early to come up with any meaningful numbers yet, cause there just isn't a large enough N in sight.

 

 

Edit:

Declaring the strongest the overall winner is absolutely fine by me.

 

But the added whatever to nerd out on for skinny guys like me is nice. :D

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KapMan
53 minutes ago, Mikael Siversson said:

There was never any question really about the overall winner in absolute terms when Chad made gripsport somewhat predictably boring. With him competing again (should he decide to do so) the poorly supported notion that grip strength increases somehow levels off after 90 odd kg would dissappear in an instant. Most involved in these discussions (size vs grip strength) came on to the GB after the Chad era.

Ive seen videos of chad in training and he is indeed a monster.

 

For such a renowned individual theres barely anything anywhere. Only number i can find is a 2hp euro which kody has murdered. Id like to see more. 

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climber511
21 minutes ago, KapMan said:

Ive seen videos of chad in training and he is indeed a monster.

 

For such a renowned individual theres barely anything anywhere. Only number i can find is a 2hp euro which kody has murdered. Id like to see more. 

Chad and Jedd used to have some epic battles - I was lucky enough to be there for several of them.

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MCrushetta
18 hours ago, Chez said:

I thought the same thing. Me and Dan are almost same height and do I look almost a 100 lbs heavier than him. Obviously I have more fat but its doesn't look 100 lbs. I have always weighed a lot. I got heavy bones I guess. haha

I too have the dense bones.

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climber511
4 minutes ago, MCrushetta said:

I too have the dense bones.

We now have two people who admit to being "dense".  Amazing :) LOL

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Mikael Siversson

Chad has gotten a lot stronger in the pinch since he pulled 110k+ something. He would also easily outlift Kody, Gill and others in the axle. Overall he would win every nationals again and do it with ease. There is a very old video somewhere showing him doing a double with 200k or thereabouts in the axle. Kody, Gill and others in the 93k class are very good but would stand no chance overall against a grip talented competitor with a huge frame like Chad. Its simple physics really. If you eg scaled up Kody by 10% he would weigh 33% more and be 21-22% stronger as weight increases by the cube whereas strength goes up by the square when you scale someone up. Most people complaining about having weight classes are simply in the wrong weight class and could probably drop down one or more classes with a more athlete-worthy diet.

Edited by Mikael Siversson
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KapMan
1 hour ago, Mikael Siversson said:

Chad has gotten a lot stronger in the pinch since he pulled 110k+ something. He would also easily outlift Kody, Gill and others in the axle. Overall he would win every nationals again and do it with ease. There is a very old video somewhere showing him doing a double with 200k or thereabouts in the axle. Kody, Gill and others in the 93k class are very good but would stand no chance overall against a grip talented competitor with a huge frame like Chad. Its simple physics really. If you eg scaled up Kody by 10% he would weigh 33% more and be 21-22% stronger as weight increases by the cube whereas strength goes up by the square when you scale someone up. Most people complaining about having weight classes are simply in the wrong weight class and could probably drop down one or more classes with a more athlete-worthy diet.

I like beer too much. So no dieting for this heathen. 

Eventually ill whoop all your butts in every facet of grip anyways. Before you know it mikael you'll want be a slim 305lbs too. When that day comes, ill gladly except you in the brotherhood of the fatty liver.

Not even worried about ol grandmaster Chad woodall that man seems content not being around here and reaching grip level infinity on his own. 

 

 

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gripmaniac

For the sake of further debate, what would be a reasonable breakdown of the competition weight classes and how many does there need to be? Are the current ones (when in use and bearing in mind competitor numbers on the day) acceptable?

My personal preference would be for only 2 with 93kg and under being the divider.  Apologies to the small boned and of course the extremely densely boned. I’d just like to try to keep things as simple as possible (and trying to see things from a promoter’s perspective).

1 have no issue with more weight classes in terms of records as it certainly gives people something to aim for – even if they aren’t declared the overall winner.

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Mikael Siversson
4 hours ago, gripmaniac said:

For the sake of further debate, what would be a reasonable breakdown of the competition weight classes and how many does there need to be? Are the current ones (when in use and bearing in mind competitor numbers on the day) acceptable?

My personal preference would be for only 2 with 93kg and under being the divider.  Apologies to the small boned and of course the extremely densely boned. I’d just like to try to keep things as simple as possible (and trying to see things from a promoter’s perspective).

1 have no issue with more weight classes in terms of records as it certainly gives people something to aim for – even if they aren’t declared the overall winner.

Changing the number of weight classes for records within NAGS would most likely result in a drop in the number of competitors much like it would if you cut down the number of weight classes in OL and PL to two. I know I would certainly loose interest if I had to get fat in order to be more competitive. We would also loose some credibility if we change the number of weight classes everytime someone has a few beers and post his or hers latest ideas (I know that's not what you suggested in terms of records but others have). We have a fair number of weight classes in line with major strength sports and have never had more competitors. Don't break something that is working. It simply makes it more interesting for more people if you can compare yourself to others of your size. I have little interest in knowing how far behind I am in hand strength of people twice my weight.

Edited by Mikael Siversson
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Mikael Siversson

For individual competitions keep it simple and have one class only. I usually end up near the bottom in the LGC competition but it keeps me happy knowing that my numbers are difficult to duplicate for competitors in the 74k class (competitive as I am). This keeps the big and stronger guys happy as well as the little ones.

Edited by Mikael Siversson
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climber511

I think everyone wants a little recognition for their efforts.  Tommy for an Inch lift with sub 8" hands - Mikael for his 74 K class results - myself for lifts done at my age - and on and on.  But it only makes sense to divide things down so far - giving the red haired guy from Wyoming his own class just so he gets a prize is hopefully not what we are aiming for.  I think the weight classes give everyone a chance - but for gods sake you still have to lift something worthy of recognition before you win a prize of any kind.  The day we hand out participation trophies is the day I quit grip forever.  Back to the original question - a fairly simple strongest pound for pound formula should give the best lifter.  I know Medleys mess that up but maybe one of you math guys can figure that one out as well.  My personal opinion is the Top 50 (or 100 or whatever it's up to now) is pretty good recognition for the things we have done. 

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KapMan
13 minutes ago, climber511 said:

 The day we hand out participation trophies is the day I quit grip forever.  

Me too. I only wanna get paid for the work I do. 

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Alawadhi

My opinion, keep it simple. The strongest guy wins. Who is stronger, the Iranian Hussain Rezazadeh or the Turkish Naim Suleymanoglu? Yes Naim lifted 10kg over triple his bodyweight. Wow! But Hussain lifted more than him. As simple as that. Guys comon look at big dude (with muscles of course as I have a 155kg very fat friend who can't lift FBBC 45KG baby inch) like Tex, Rich, Chad, Brian Shaw, Laine Snook, Jedd and the likes. They are surely stronger generally than the lower weight people. When I start a comp, it will be like the old fashion single elimination match as muscle surely won't help as much in grip like weightlifting but it does help a lot.

You want more fair? Make weight classes and then first of each weight class will compete with each other.

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Mike Rinderle
On 7/18/2017 at 10:00 AM, climber511 said:

Hand size has been discussed "to death" in the past - every few years it comes back - a shit storm ensues and we move on again.  We had hand size classes for several years - many different ideas were floated - remember "fair bar"?  Even hand size is more complex than it seems on the surface - palm versus finger length for example gives advantage to different aspects of grip sport.  Body weight may not be perfect either but it's only one variable at least.  Every sport has body types that give an advantage to those people.  In the more popular or well attended sports it sorts itself - very tall people play basketball or volleyball - short people become gymnasts - divers and on and on.  The problem is when we want to excel in a sport where we do not enjoy a natural advantage for that activity - such as grip in this case.  The IGC and NAGS groups have to look at it to "what is fairest to everyone - not just one subgroup" and it's an impossible thing to do - life isn't fair - and never will be all around.  It's easy to think you got beat cause "he's bigger than I am - or his hands are bigger - or whatever the case may be.  But in the end he beat you because he lifted more weight than you did - bigger body - bigger hands - longer thumbs or whatever the case may be.  Or course outliers exist and fudge up things but there will always be outliers - and what can one do about them.  Formula stuff can be fun and I'd personally like to see an age factor one :) LOL- but if we give everyone their own category we might as well hand out participation awards.

Written by an almost 70 year old guy with small hands, a bad back, and only medium body weight who gets beat because other people simply are stronger than I am.

This.  That's all.

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Mike Rinderle
On 7/19/2017 at 8:18 AM, Mikael Siversson said:

The main reason the 120k+ class does not always dominate is because heavy top level athletes are into other sports. Plenty of huge guys that can pull 200k and more in the axle but they have no interest in NAGS. Give these people (like top athletes in NFL for example) a few years of training on a Euro and grippers and records would fall.

It wouldn't take a few years.  If Brian Shaw showed up at a grip contest with 6 weeks of training he would win every event by a wide margin.  

We found this out in the horseshoe world.  Many people trained and toiled for years to become what everyone would agree was world class at the time.  Jason Bergmann (two time WSM finalist) bought Jedd's and my Hammering Horseshoes dvd and in 3 months had bent shoes none of us could ever bend no matter how hard we worked.

Moral of the story: compete against yourself.  There's always someone bigger and stronger out there.

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