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Best Lifter vs Overall? Discuss.


Squeezus

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31 minutes ago, Cannon said:

The thing I'm having a hard time reconciling is the opinion that weight classes of course make sense but also that the "bodyweight shit is moot"

I don't think the weight is moot. I think the formulas adapted from weight lifting place too much emphasis on weight for grip sport since grip isn't as body weight dependent as power lifting. 

Edited by Chez
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Hand size has been discussed "to death" in the past - every few years it comes back - a shit storm ensues and we move on again.  We had hand size classes for several years - many different ideas were

It seems like there's been a real interest in finding the overall winner, which is cool.  However, I don't think taking any formulas from other sports is the way to do it.  Here's why I feel that way.

As someone who doesn't compete in grip sports events, but has taken an interest from a distance, my thoughts are aligned with @climber511 to an extent. I think that having weight classes and then an o

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KapMan
32 minutes ago, Cannon said:

The thing I'm having a hard time reconciling is the opinion that weight classes of course make sense but also that the "bodyweight shit is moot".  We need the weight classes because as a general truth, heavier guys are stronger than lighter guys. 

I do like the idea of an overall winner just based on straight numbers.  The larger the contest, the less likely a small guy will take the overall but theoretically it could happen.  I won the overall in a contest where I was the lightest guy and Chris Mathison and Adam Glass were both competing.  There were probably 10 total competitors.  Adam bombed out of 2HP and one event favored my strengths enough that I beat out Chris Mathison for the overall win.   

Hand size has as many variations as bodyweight differences so why not just use bodyweight?  Delmar finds grippers incredibly challenging because his hands are TOO big.  Daniel Reinard seems to have the ideal hand geometry for grip stuff despite not having a "big" hand.  (He's damn strong too, that helps.)  Guys with the same length hands will still have major differences in palm/finger length/width and that stuff matters.  You also might have a slender hand versus a thick hand.  Personally, I think bodyweight matters more than hand size along the lines of what Chris Rice said about the potential for overall strength.          

It is moot. Jennifer thompson is a champion powerlifter in the 63k class and pound for pound is better than i am, despite squatting and deadlifting more.

 

My point is that this misconception that some how I as a bigger athlete have some sort of distinct advantage is mostly false. I really dont. I think the numbers prove it. Almost everyone that whoops my ass currently is smaller in bodyweight or has 8" or below handsize. So blaming my size for a win is dumb when in fact YOU can beat me just as easily as I can win.

Sure you cant do things others can for whatever reason.Some sports are size dependent, ours is to a point. 

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KapMan
13 minutes ago, Andrew Dube said:

Grappling tournaments run an absolute division open to the winners of their weight classes. The winner truly is the absolute champion winning not only their own class but a second tournament made up of Champions. There are often very fun fights like a 170 Marcelo Garcia submitting a 300lb Ricco Rodriguez. However the winner usually falls between 200-230. I suspect the same would happen in grip but maybe something like this is an option? 

Personally I would be happy to do away with weight classes given the size of most contests. I'm interested in how strong my lifts are period, and Im not interested in a trophy just for showing up. With a generous prize pool like SJ4 nearly everyone would walk away with something anyway.

Grappling is a wonderful example of my point.  BJJ in particular is proof that a 300 monster can lose to a 180 pound guy. 

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climber511

As a promoter I know what I have done for many years - what feedback I have had - and what I will continue to do.  People will come to my contests or they will not - just like every other contest out there.  If the NAGS organization changes the rules - I will of course change as well but otherwise I think I'm good with the way i do things.  All these discussions have been held many times before - only the players have changed.  And nobody has changed their mind yet :)

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Kluv#0
12 minutes ago, climber511 said:

As a promoter I know what I have done for many years - what feedback I have had - and what I will continue to do.  People will come to my contests or they will not - just like every other contest out there.  If the NAGS organization changes the rules - I will of course change as well but otherwise I think I'm good with the way i do things.  All these discussions have been held many times before - only the players have changed.  And nobody has changed their mind yet :)

I agree! Lot of choices when it comes to grip contests- choose accordingly,etc. Case in point, I jumped at the chance to enter the Viking classic held by Odd Haugen in Anaheim- great opportunity to compete/meet with the best in the world, irregardless of implements or weight class.

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Bryan Hunsaker

People, this is simple: either Gil at about 200lbs is exponentially stronger than the bigs, or weight doesn't matter as much as everyone thinks.  He has an incredible grip, and that is why he wins.

There are 4 Pro Heavyweight Strongmen I train with.  Every one of them is a lot stronger than I am at non-grip stuff, and 3 of the 4 outweigh me, 2 by quite a bit.  None of them have ever beaten me at grip.  My grip is just better, period. 

The bigs will never agree on a bodyweight metric, and the smaller competitors all think the grass is greener as a big lifter, as evidenced by the above dialogue.  I think we can all agree that we disagree, so there is something to that - formulas do not make sense for an overall winner.  Pick the overall winner as Eric put forward.  Don't handicap it - best lift is the winner.  If there is an overwhelming need for a comparison metric, pick your best pound-for-pounder as someone else mentioned.

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Andrew P
1 hour ago, climber511 said:

As a promoter I know what I have done for many years - what feedback I have had - and what I will continue to do.  People will come to my contests or they will not - just like every other contest out there.  If the NAGS organization changes the rules - I will of course change as well but otherwise I think I'm good with the way i do things.  All these discussions have been held many times before - only the players have changed.  And nobody has changed their mind yet :)

Agree with you on this one Chris. 

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Tank Andrade

you need some sort of body weight divisions. i am in the process of moving down to my 5th weight  class and only now are my lift beginning to get competitive. i literally will have dropped 100lbs to be in my proper weight class.  @KapMan plug your numbers in 2-3 weight classes down and see where you stack up.  to say that bodyweight is moot is insane, you atleast want to compete against people in the same ballpark as you

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Andrew P
2 hours ago, Chez said:

I don't think the weight is moot. I think the formulas adapted from weight lifting place too much emphasis on weight for grip sport since grip isn't as body weight dependent as power lifting. 

Chez not trying to argue but when I reviewed the data from the events with the most data in NAGS I see that body weight does appear to be a factor but only to a point. Our sport is odd in that you need to be at around the 195# to 210# range to perform at the top levels. Looking at guys like Durniat, Kody, Gil to name a few are at the peak and are relatively light weight guys. After that the additional size don't appear to help much like you would expect. Granted maybe we just haven't had some true heavyweight monsters show up yet. But when I looked at the 83 and under class that's when things start needing help. 

 

 

Ratio of WR Grip 2016 Data.PNG

Edited by Andrew P
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Andrew P
5 minutes ago, Tank Andrade said:

you need some sort of body weight divisions. i am in the process of moving down to my 5th weight  class and only now are my lift beginning to get competitive. i literally will have dropped 100lbs to be in my proper weight class.  @KapMan plug your numbers in 2-3 weight classes down and see where you stack up.  to say that bodyweight is moot is insane, you atleast want to compete against people in the same ballpark as you

I know I need to drop down to the 83kg class myself. 

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6 minutes ago, Andrew P said:

Chez not trying to argue but when I reviewed the data from the events with the most data in NAGS I see that body weight does appear to be a factor but only to a point. Our sport is odd in that you need to be at around the 195# to 210# range to perform at the top levels. Looking at guys like Durniat, Kody, Gil to name a few are at the peak and are relatively light weight guys. After that the additional size don't appear to help much like you would expect. Granted maybe we just haven't had some true heavyweight monsters show up yet. But when I looked at the 83 and under class that's when things start needing help. 

 

 

Ratio of WR Grip 2016 Data.PNG

That is part of my point. I didn't say get rid of the weight classes but don't use the formulas because they get very out of wack. The smaller guys are usually either shorter or very thin with less of a weight lifting background. Belly fat doesn't help someone lift more on the hub. These formulas hurt the biggest guys the most. I'm 6'2" and I love weight lifting. If we use a formula, I will need to go on severe diet which will effect my power lifts. I don't care about abs frankly. I will need to put up insane numbers to be competitive. If I'm reading your chart right it levels off near 200 lbs. I weighed 185 in high school before lifting a weight. I was crazy skinny and weak. I was never going to be under 200 as a weight lifting adult.    

Edited by Chez
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KapMan
Just now, Tank Andrade said:

you need some sort of body weight divisions. i am in the process of moving down to my 5th weight  class and only now are my lift beginning to get competitive. i literally will have dropped 100lbs to be in my proper weight class.  @KapMan plug your numbers in 2-3 weight classes down and see where you stack up.  to say that bodyweight is moot is insane

I have. Wilks i need an large amount of weight to be competitive with someone lifting less, but also weighing less.

with the formulas used at sj4 i was 8th and 29th. My weight gave no (bad word filter)ing advantage. I got creamed by stronger people.

 

Moral: being bigger doesnt guarantee an advantage. The numbers prove that and even the hun man basically stated it above.  

i say its moot because in the end your ass needs to simply lift more weight. I lost at sj4 because im weak. Simple as that. Not because gil, jedd or kody are smaller or their hands are bigger. 

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KapMan
3 minutes ago, Chez said:

That is part of my point. I didn't say get rid of the weight classes but don't use the formulas because they get very out of wack. The smaller guys are usually either shorter or very thin with less of a weight lifting background. Belly fat doesn't help someone lift more on the hub. These formulas hurt the biggest guys the most. I'm 6'2" and I love weight lifting. If we use a formula, I will need to go on severe diet which will effect my power lifts. I don't care about abs frankly. I will need to put up insane numbers to be competitive.   

Exactly. Being 305lbs doesn't help shit in grip. Being in a weight class is simply a formality at this point. 

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Someone at work just guessed me at 240 lbs yesterday and I laughed. i weighed in at the comp at 277. Everyone always thinks I'm lighter than I am. We all have different body types. 200 lbs is nothing on my frame. 

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KapMan
1 minute ago, Chez said:

Someone at work just guessed me at 240 lbs yesterday and I laughed. i weighed in at the comp at 277. Everyone always thinks I'm lighter than I am. We all have different body types. 200 lbs is nothing on my frame. 

Maria thought i lost weight

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Squeezus
3 minutes ago, Chez said:

Someone at work just guessed me at 240 lbs yesterday and I laughed. i weighed in at the comp at 277. Everyone always thinks I'm lighter than I am. We all have different body types. 200 lbs is nothing on my frame. 

I was looking at that pic of you and Dan last night and thinking, "Chez is one dense-ass dude."

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Eric Roussin
21 minutes ago, Squeezus said:

I was looking at that pic of you and Dan last night and thinking, "Chez is one dense-ass dude."

I thought the exact same thing looking at that pic.

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Just now, Squeezus said:

I was looking at that pic of you and Dan last night and thinking, "Chez is one dense-ass dude."

I thought the same thing. Me and Dan are almost same height and do I look almost a 100 lbs heavier than him. Obviously I have more fat but its doesn't look 100 lbs. I have always weighed a lot. I got heavy bones I guess. haha

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Just now, Eric Roussin said:

I thought the exact same thing looking at that pic.

Eric. I use you as an example all the time. We are similar in height and yet you often weigh around 200 and look jacked. 200 lbs on me is thin.  

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Tank Andrade
36 minutes ago, KapMan said:

Exactly. Being 305lbs doesn't help shit in grip. Being in a weight class is simply a formality at this point. 

think of a 300lb Dave Labbe. 

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Cannon
43 minutes ago, KapMan said:

Exactly. Being 305lbs doesn't help shit in grip. Being in a weight class is simply a formality at this point. 

Can you curb the cussing?  You even set off the bad word filter earlier.  [*removes moderator hat]  :)

You're just saying the 120+ weight class is a formality, right?  Like once you weigh 264lbs it doesn't matter if you weigh 305 or 410 or more?

     

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KapMan
1 hour ago, Cannon said:

Can you curb the cussing?  You even set off the bad word filter earlier.  [*removes moderator hat]  :)

You're just saying the 120+ weight class is a formality, right?  Like once you weigh 264lbs it doesn't matter if you weigh 305 or 410 or more?

     

🤦🏻‍♂️ I give up. You guys have at it.

 

 

 

Edited by KapMan
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Stephen Ruby

I agree with others on the keep it simple. Have weight classes but if you want the overall winner just go with the biggest lifts. Weight does make a difference in grip but not nearly as much as in say powerlifting. That has been shown time and time again. I have always loved watching smaller guys beat larger guys in many sports from arm wrestling with john breznak or grappling with Marcelo Garcia to even in mma like the oldschool pride openweight fights(where you would have middle weights or smaller fighting heavyweights). Gripsport has had lots of smaller guys beat heavier guys and I don't think the guys near the top would mind competing with heavier guys anyways. 

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Mikael Siversson

Weight matters a lot when you take it too the limit. Get down to 10% or less body fat and then get back to us. A few of us have actually tried. I am most competitive at 74k but stronger at 83k. Jedd tried 105k but could certainly not duplicate his 2hp numbers in 120k+ in competition. Eric dropped down to 74k and saw a big drop in the 2Hp. Believe it or not but its not easy to put up big numbers in the 2hp when you your fingers loose all meat on them.

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Mikael Siversson

As far as overall just go with absolute numbers. That will give extra credits to the generally larger and stronger competitors. Again much of this discussion would seem somewhat out of place if Chad was still competing with us.

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