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Best Lifter vs Overall? Discuss.


Squeezus

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Gary Gray

     You probably should not have a "Best Lifter Award" as there are just too many side issues to consider.  In powerlifting meets I recall there were generally (2) "Best Lifter Awards";  one for under 198 Lb. bodyweight and one for over 198 lb. 

     However at age 78 I would like to see some type of "Older Person Category".  My best powerlifts were between age 40 to 45, and it has been a slow downhill lack of progress ever since.  The thing I really like about "grip training lifts" is that I can still set some PR's as I did not do grip training before.

 

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Hand size has been discussed "to death" in the past - every few years it comes back - a shit storm ensues and we move on again.  We had hand size classes for several years - many different ideas were

It seems like there's been a real interest in finding the overall winner, which is cool.  However, I don't think taking any formulas from other sports is the way to do it.  Here's why I feel that way.

As someone who doesn't compete in grip sports events, but has taken an interest from a distance, my thoughts are aligned with @climber511 to an extent. I think that having weight classes and then an o

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Hubgeezer
8 hours ago, Squeezus said:

the potential to turn into a Joe Kinney Euro Axle thing

 

Nice phrase. An effective choice of words. 

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climber511
21 minutes ago, Tommy J. said:

Agreed. And i think the results will show that the heavyweights are not the big bad threat to gripsport that they are made out to be.

as far as can recall, some of the absolute best in grip were between 165-235lbs, with only a handful of super strong grips with bodyweights higher than 235ish.

Right now at least the bad ass guys are mostly 93s.  Kody - Gil - Luke - Eric etc.  Sure the Jedds etc are still top Dogs overall but not by much any more.

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Jose Cabrera
  8 hours ago, Tom Scibelli said:

This is a pretty interesting idea

I agree, maybe a cut off can be divised, for example, people with "small" hands, 20mm set, medium 30mm, and large a ccs. On the same note possibly even with the rolling handles;  trylobite comes to mind. Small hands 2" handle, medium hands 2.5 large 3 inch and so forth. Just tossing the idea out there. Maybe even the flask can be produced  at various widths lets say three and a three platform format can be used with all three examples. One with 2" handle etc. 

 

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Eric Roussin

One thing that I don't like about the idea of hand size in a formula (or for the separation of classes) is that it can be tricky to measure someone's hand. For example, let's assume a class division for those with hands longer than 8 inches and one for those with hands 8 inches or less in length. If your hand is a hair over 8 inches, you may be tempted to just slightly curl your hand so that it measures a hair under 8 inches. There would obviously be big advantages to doing this.

I have a feeling that, as opposed to the length of perhaps other body parts, some people in the grip community may be tempted to exaggerate the size of their hands towards shorter rather than longer. 

This is a pic of my fake hand measurement. Stretched as much as possible, my hand measures somewhere between 8 and 3/16 and 8 and 1/4 inches. But as you can see, I could potentially trick someone into thinking my hand measures less than 8 inches.

IMG_1529.JPG

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riccardomagni

Good one, Eric!!  :)

When there is a winner and loser, there are always people that will do whatever it takes to come out on top. 

I would prefer 3 weight classes.  Up to 198/200, up to 240/242, and supers.  I think most of the debates will be cured that way.

There will always be variance of physiques in any weight class.  That's why it is called a competition...

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Lucasraymond
17 minutes ago, riccardomagni said:

Good one, Eric!!  :)

When there is a winner and loser, there are always people that will do whatever it takes to come out on top. 

I would prefer 3 weight classes.  Up to 198/200, up to 240/242, and supers.  I think most of the debates will be cured that way.

There will always be variance of physiques in any weight class.  That's why it is called a competition...

I think 4 classes would be better to fill gaps; 0-170, 171-205, 206-240, 241+

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Eric Roussin

I like keeping all of the NAGS classes for records purposes (i.e. the Top 100 database), but promoters should select a subset of these for grip contests. For instance, I often run three men's classes: 74 kg, 93 kg, and 93+ kg. The September 9 cross-Canada contest will use 83 kg, 105 kg, and 105+ kg. But the results get entered into the Top 100 database based on the competitors' weight.

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I ran a light, middle, and heavy weight class when I threw comps because otherwise people would win a class by just showing up. I came up with the cut offs by looking at the weights of those who competed to make the cut offs as fair as possible 

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climber511

As information only Gripmas ran a 207# (94K) class division - two classes - one below and one above that weight for years.  No one ever won the overall as a lightweight.  The old hand size dividing line was 7 3/4" - no one in that class ever won an overall.   When we set up the current weight classes we went with PL weight class numbers - with the hope that as time went on the numbers of competitors would fill them adequately - which perhaps will happen in the future.  I have been giving out what I call the Yol Bosun award the last few years - patterned after the Diesel Award Jedd had given for a long time at his comps - this is one voted on by the competitors for the person who tries the hardest - has the best day etc.  Usually won by a newer competitor - it does have special meaning to those who win it.  Everyone wishes they can find an edge - we can't all have that.  At some point we all realize we are competing against ourselves first - then against others.  We can divide ourselves into as many classes as we choose but if everyone does their own thing we will end up with nothing of meaning as the result.

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gripmaniac

I’d like to hear Jedd and Luke’s formula idea.  I believe it is quite possibly the only thing that can prevent this recycled topic from turning into a “Joe Kinney Euro Axle” thing.

 No pressure. . . .’cause over 35 replies in 14 hours = HOT TOPICS ROCK.

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JHenze646

This is a frivolous discussion. We should be focusing on other things.

What made this the highest contended contest so far?

What would make this a better event? Logistics? Administration? Cost?

How can we improve this?

How can we make it easier for promoters to sanction events?

What kind of data can we provide promoters to persuade sponsors?

Scoring will be a developmental process. Simple question: do you have an idea you would like to try for scoring?

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patrickmeniru

As someone who doesn't compete in grip sports events, but has taken an interest from a distance, my thoughts are aligned with @climber511 to an extent. I think that having weight classes and then an overall title for the most weight lifted regardless of bodyweight is the most sensible route. My reasons are set out below.

  1. There is an indisputable correlation between bodyweight and overall strength, even though we can argue about whether this correlation applies to grip strength specifically, weight will give an advantage in the grip events that also require a significant level of general strength (e.g. thickbar lifts). Even though bodyweight may not be perfect at finding who is the 'best' lifter, it is easy and accurate to measure and makes sense to those not familiar with the sport which a formula may not (which I think is important if the sport is to grow). One key component of weight is that it has a controllable aspect, within reason people are able to control how much they weigh and can choose which weight class they want to compete in.
  2. I haven't seen a compelling argument for a metric of dividing up competitors that is preferable to weight, which should be the starting point given that it is pretty much standard across most sports that divide into categories. In terms of having a formula for calculating overall winners, I will not comment on the merits of this (other than my point above about making the sport intuitive to help growth) as I don't think I am in a good position to given my lack of competition experience.
  3. On hand size specifically, I think that having large hands definitely gives an advantage in many grip sport events. However, to take athletics as an example (because it is highly measurable, much like how much weight can you lift/crush etc.) you do not see the high jump field adjusted to account for height and you do not see the 100m field adjusted to account for percentage of type 1 fibres. Nobody wants to be told that they can't be world class at a sport they love, but at the same time sport is not 'fair'. If you are 5"5 you will never be a world class high jumper. If you have very small hands, you are unlikely to be a world class grip athlete. With the right genetics and work ethic, you can overcome a certain degree of disadvantage (Stefan Holm won Olympic gold in the high jump at 'only' 5"11) but it is harder. People can recognise the accomplishments of an athlete with poor genetics for their sport and applaud them, but I don't think that admiration for someone who is incredible given their handicap (in this case small hands) should be translated into skewing competition results to equalise for the handicap.
  4. Please note that I am not using the word 'handicap' in a pejorative manner and nor am I trying to offend anyone with small hands.

 

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Mikael Siversson

The main reason the 120k+ class does not always dominate is because heavy top level athletes are into other sports. Plenty of huge guys that can pull 200k and more in the axle but they have no interest in NAGS. Give these people (like top athletes in NFL for example) a few years of training on a Euro and grippers and records would fall.

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Mikael Siversson

The domination of the 93k class would come to an abrupt end the day Mr Too Tall decides to return. He combines good genetics and huge size, an unbeatable combination even in grip.

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KapMan
4 minutes ago, Mikael Siversson said:

The main reason the 120k+ class does not always dominate is because heavy top level athletes are into other sports. Plenty of huge guys that can pull 200k and more in the axle but they have no interest in NAGS. Give these people (like top athletes in NFL for ecample) a few years of training on a Euro and grippers and records would fall.

Give anyone proper training and they mostly likely will do fine. I went from barely crushing coc 1.5 to matching some of the best at SJ4, with 5-10mm from closing my 3.5 and 20mm from closing my 4.

At 305lbs and having 8" mitts i have yet to see how my size poses an advantage in contest vs someone like @Squeezus. Hell. Becca whoops my ass in many things. Mrs. Horne too. So this hand size bodyweight shit is moot. Its about how you train. 

To me. No matter what we decide to do someone will bitch. People are looking for an edge. Pick the fairest scoring you can, pick the fairest implements you can and be done with it. If you lose its because you didnt train the right way. 

 

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Kluv#0
20 minutes ago, KapMan said:

Give anyone proper training and they mostly likely will do fine. I went from barely crushing coc 1.5 to matching some of the best at SJ4, with 5-10mm from closing my 3.5 and 20mm from closing my 4.

At 305lbs and having 8" mitts i have yet to see how my size poses an advantage in contest vs someone like @Squeezus. Hell. Becca whoops my ass in many things. Mrs. Horne too. So this hand size bodyweight shit is moot. Its about how you train. 

To me. No matter what we decide to do someone will bitch. People are looking for an edge. Pick the fairest scoring you can, pick the fairest implements you can and be done with it. If you lose its because you didnt train the right way. 

 

You are spot on. 99% have a weakness in grip it is how you train to bring it up. You being 305lb, most would assume you to have better open hand crush strength vs closed hand but that is not the case as your close hand crush strength is far greater.

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KapMan
Just now, Kluv#0 said:

You are spot on. 99% have a weakness in grip it is how you train to bring it up. You being 305lb, most would assume you to have better open hand crush strength vs closed hand but that is not the case as your close hand crush strength is far greater.

Werid right? 

Guys like you who are older and lighter destroy me on most of the common lifts. Size doesnt always equant to strength.  

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climber511
14 minutes ago, KapMan said:

Werid right? 

Guys like you who are older and lighter destroy me on most of the common lifts. Size doesnt always equant to strength.  

It's my belief that "muscular" size equals more "potential" for strength.  So given your size - more years of proper training should make you much stronger in pretty much all ways

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KapMan
15 minutes ago, climber511 said:

It's my belief that "muscular" size equals more "potential" for strength.  So given your size - more years of proper training should make you much stronger in pretty much all ways

But most anyone has that potential. Regardless of size. Im just a fat idiot with a little bit of strength. I have 0 genetics or anything else that gives me an edge over anyone else.

 

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climber511
1 minute ago, KapMan said:

But most anyone has that potential. Regardless of size. Im just a fat idiot with a little bit of strength. I have 0 genetics or anything else that gives me an edge over anyone else.

 

You might surprise your self if you stay at it for 20 or 30 years.  :)

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MCrushetta
6 hours ago, JHenze646 said:

This is a frivolous discussion. We should be focusing on other things.

What made this the highest contended contest so far?

What would make this a better event? Logistics? Administration? Cost?

How can we improve this?

How can we make it easier for promoters to sanction events?

What kind of data can we provide promoters to persuade sponsors?

Scoring will be a developmental process. Simple question: do you have an idea you would like to try for scoring?

I like where you're head's at. I think about these things often. I am going to take these questions to another thread to respond.

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Andrew P

My opinion is first and foremost that the promoter can and should use the scoring formula they chose. Promoting an event at any level is a huge undertaking and a lot of thought goes into it.

As for overall scoring it depends on the event and there is so many variables that can go into that it just depends. No limit events like Mighty Mitts and Legends an absolute scoring system of who lifted the most would be my 1st pick. But for those events I fully expect that some of the 300+ pound monsters can and do show up. 

Other events I prefer an equation or just placings for each weight class. For an equation I'm a little biased the the one I generated from the exceptional lifter award for King Kong but that just from the amount of data I've looked at over the years. In the end even that is just another tool in the tool box. 

 

 

 

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Cannon
1 hour ago, KapMan said:

But most anyone has that potential. Regardless of size. Im just a fat idiot with a little bit of strength. I have 0 genetics or anything else that gives me an edge over anyone else.

 

The thing I'm having a hard time reconciling is the opinion that weight classes of course make sense but also that the "bodyweight shit is moot".  We need the weight classes because as a general truth, heavier guys are stronger than lighter guys. 

I do like the idea of an overall winner just based on straight numbers.  The larger the contest, the less likely a small guy will take the overall but theoretically it could happen.  I won the overall in a contest where I was the lightest guy and Chris Mathison and Adam Glass were both competing.  There were probably 10 total competitors.  Adam bombed out of 2HP and one event favored my strengths enough that I beat out Chris Mathison for the overall win.   

Hand size has as many variations as bodyweight differences so why not just use bodyweight?  Delmar finds grippers incredibly challenging because his hands are TOO big.  Daniel Reinard seems to have the ideal hand geometry for grip stuff despite not having a "big" hand.  (He's damn strong too, that helps.)  Guys with the same length hands will still have major differences in palm/finger length/width and that stuff matters.  You also might have a slender hand versus a thick hand.  Personally, I think bodyweight matters more than hand size along the lines of what Chris Rice said about the potential for overall strength.          

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Andrew Dube

Grappling tournaments run an absolute division open to the winners of their weight classes. The winner truly is the absolute champion winning not only their own class but a second tournament made up of Champions. There are often very fun fights like a 170 Marcelo Garcia submitting a 300lb Ricco Rodriguez. However the winner usually falls between 200-230. I suspect the same would happen in grip but maybe something like this is an option? 

Personally I would be happy to do away with weight classes given the size of most contests. I'm interested in how strong my lifts are period, and Im not interested in a trophy just for showing up. With a generous prize pool like SJ4 nearly everyone would walk away with something anyway.

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