2017 June - NAGS thoughts (promoter perspective)

[KapMan]

5 minutes ago, Shoggoth said:

I get russled when people try to make creating these implements substantially more difficult than it actually is. 

I get russeled when people act like others can do the things they do,and have access to the same reasources others do. 

Its easier to use wood and nails to get the same outcome. It would still be cheaper..

[Shoggoth]

6 minutes ago, KapMan said:

I get russeled when people act like others can do the things they do,and have access to the same reasources others do. 

Its easier to use wood and nails to get the same outcome. It would still be cheaper..

This is degenerating past the point of usefulness. You don't need the skills if you go to a welding shop or talk to other folks making their own that have the skills. This was already mentioned. 

[Jared Goguen]

3 minutes ago, Shoggoth said:

This is degenerating past the point of usefulness. You don't need the skills if you go to a welding shop or talk to other folks making their own that have the skills. This was already mentioned. 

Your argument here is mostly void since it doesn't stand up and I would be happy to hash this out with you in PMs

[KapMan]

5 minutes ago, Shoggoth said:

This is degenerating past the point of usefulness. You don't need the skills if you go to a welding shop or talk to other folks making their own that have the skills. This was already mentioned. 

This discussion hasnt generated nothing useful for years. Which is why it keeps being brought up.

This community i swear..

[Shoggoth]

23 minutes ago, Jared Goguen said:

Your argument here is mostly void since it doesn't stand up and I would be happy to hash this out with you in PMs

What is "my" argument? I think most have lost track now. 

[Shoggoth]

24 minutes ago, KapMan said:

This discussion hasnt generated nothing useful for years. Which is why it keeps being brought up.

This community i swear..

And that's what you're bringing to the conversation. 

This is what happens when someone brings their own opinion. Once in a blue moon too. Lambasted and attacks without discussing civilly the topic. 

[acorn]

One does not require a Euro device to train for it. Will you get the most specific results using one? probably. But you can get plenty strong using other things to train for it. Couple years back I decided to not use my euro to train for one of the contests. Used a homemade wood pinch block with eyehook and loading pin instead for the 6 months leading up to the comp. Just made sure it was the same width and profile as what I normally pinch at on the Euro. Worked just as well and I pulled a contest PR at the contest. Not a requirement to buy one to get better at it in contests in my opinion. Just have to train smart and pinch on something that is the appropriate thickness and smoothness to what you want to compete at. Should a promoter choose a Euro or flask or whatever? that is up to the promoter to decide at this point. They have options to choose what kind of experience the contest should be. Do I think the Euro could be better. Sure, and I have done some of the functional mods on my contest Euro already which makes it run lots faster and easier out here in AZ. Still can get better though.

- Aaron

[Adam Juncker]

Let's assume that @Shoggothis right about the Euro being a relatively easy implement to build or otherwise acquire.

I think his points about members of the board supporting each other in producing them are right - so long as the person new to grip is a member. This opportunity won't be granted to people outside.

Anyway.... Does the Euro make the most sense for a comp? To many it does because we can pinch at our the optimal width. This takes time and error to discover.  Another missed opportunity for new people.  

The spirit and topic of this discussion (if I remember correctly) is about promoting grip sport in general and nationals in particular.  That said, you probably won't be at nationals unless you have some experience in the sport - which will probably include some exposure to the Euro. 

I maintain that it is a viable and reasonable method to test pinch strength, but what do outsiders make of it? As a recent outsider I did not really understand its purpose, and thus I never even desired to train it.  I made and bought fixed width stuff. 

 

 

[KapMan]

12 minutes ago, Shoggoth said:

And that's what you're bringing to the conversation. 

This is what happens when someone brings their own opinion. Once in a blue moon too. Lambasted and attacks without discussing civilly the topic. 

Thats the answer of someone with bias.

The irony in your statement is amusing. Anytime anyone mentions the euro in a negative light or doesnt fall in line with how you euro guys feel its met with this bullshit. 

[Shoggoth]

3 minutes ago, Adam Juncker said:

I maintain that it is a viable and reasonable method to test pinch strength, but what do outsiders make of it? As a recent outsider I did not really understand its purpose, and thus I never even desired to train it.  I made and bought fixed width stuff. 

 

 

Adam, the Euro was originally made to replicate 2, 45# plates. As plate widths are different all over David Horne developed the Euro to accommodate different hand sizes with having the ability to vary the width with rubber discs.

[Shoggoth]

5 minutes ago, KapMan said:

Thats the answer of someone with bias.

The irony in your statement is amusing. Anytime anyone mentions the euro in a negative light or doesnt fall in line with how you euro guys feel its met with this bullshit. 

Do a search and see how many comments I've given on this in the past. Never as far as I can remember. Longer time members here are burnt out with these same arguments brought up every 3-5 years by a "new" slew of folks getting into the sport. I think a lot of it as wanting change just for the sake of change crowd, Myself and many others don't bother getting into these conversations at all because we've seen similar stuff for many many years and have frankly lost a lot of patience for "discussing" these things.

[KapMan]

31 minutes ago, Shoggoth said:

Do a search and see how many comments I've given on this in the past. Never as far as I can remember. Longer time members here are burnt out with these same arguments brought up every 3-5 years by a "new" slew of folks getting into the sport. I think a lot of it as wanting change just for the sake of change crowd, Myself and many others don't bother getting into these conversations at all because we've seen similar stuff for many many years and have frankly lost a lot of patience for "discussing" these things.

No need to search. Been on this board 2 years and seen.

I follow @MCrushetta on this. 

 

Edited June 8, 2017 by KapMan

[Shoggoth]

1 minute ago, KapMan said:

No need to search. Been on this board 2 years and seen it.  

"Change for the sake of change" because god forbid we do different things in a sport that has near limitless options right?

That right there is why this sport will continue to be small, forum based and this argument will continue.  Why even bother with trying to grow. 

I follow @MCrushetta on this. 

 

You've seen me commenting like this within the past two years?

[KapMan]

6 minutes ago, Shoggoth said:

You've seen me commenting like this within the past two years?

Cant remember. I was speaking in broader terms as i just skimmed over your comment.

 

But i tell you what, ill screen shot this thread and make a cute little euro shitstorm scrap book. So when this happens again. As it inevitibly will, i will know specifically whose in it.

 

sound good?

[Jose Cabrera]

I agree with both sides of the argument as they have valid points regarding, speed and fairness to hand widths. Ive been in a very lengthy comp with a euro and it sucked (the time i mean). For all intents and purposes, i dont own a euro and love my flask.

Only thing i dont quite understand is the whole full body strength shouldnt be tested argument. I get we want to test the grip but if you arent overall athletic can this really be called a sport. For the record i dont consider golf or billiards sport, they are games in my opinion. I mean no offence to anyone but if you have trouble tying your shoes, or cant lift double your bodyweight easily maybe you shouldnt be competing in a strength sport. Amateurs, sure we can be accommodating but on the national or world level overall athleticism, i think, should be contested. No i dont care how many people will not compete at NAGS. It is the competition that declares who in North America has the strongest hands that year, i beleive that should come sans-beer belly and broken back

[JHenze646]

As Jose pointed out, the C in Nagsc is for championship. All sports at a championship level have a high level of buy in, money and time. Pinching well on a Euro is an investment of both.

I have a flask, a Euro, and fixed width pinch blocks. They all have their place. 

@MCrushetta is this the first contest where you used the Euro as a promoter? Perhaps more practice running the Euro event Will help maximize efficiency. True that new competitors may not appreciate it and spectators may not understand it at first, but continental championships are not really for either of those groups. Inclusiveness is more for the regional levels and you and Gil have done an amazing job with that.

As for the axle, this is after all a strength sport. Also what other two handed thickbar event won't require whole body strength?

All implements have room for improvements.

[pburke23]

7 minutes ago, JHenze646 said:

As Jose pointed out, the C in Nagsc is for championship. All sports at a championship level have a high level of buy in, money and time. Pinching well on a Euro is an investment of both.

I have a flask, a Euro, and fixed width pinch blocks. They all have their place. 

@MCrushetta is this the first contest where you used the Euro as a promoter? Perhaps more practice running the Euro event Will help maximize efficiency. True that new competitors may not appreciate it and spectators may not understand it at first, but continental championships are not really for either of those groups. Inclusiveness is more for the regional levels and you and Gil have done an amazing job with that.

As for the axle, this is after all a strength sport. Also what other two handed thickbar event won't require whole body strength?

All implements have room for improvements.

This plays into what Maria is pointing out partially. If new competitors may not appreciate it, and spectators may not understand it, how does the sport ever grow? Attracting new competitors and retaining the existing are both very important, and this is much harder to do with certain events that may take a lot of time making minor adjustments. 

[Shoggoth]

They grow more through the local comps to one day qualify for the continental championship. 

[JHenze646]

2 minutes ago, pburke23 said:

This plays into what Maria is pointing out partially. If new competitors may not appreciate it, and spectators may not understand it, how does the sport ever grow? Attracting new competitors and retaining the existing are both very important, and this is much harder to do with certain events that may take a lot of time making minor adjustments. 

That is why I was making a clear differentiation between regional competitions and a championship level contest.

[pburke23]

6 minutes ago, JHenze646 said:

That is why I was making a clear differentiation between regional competitions and a championship level contest.

That makes sense, I misunderstood.

[anwnate]

8 minutes ago, JHenze646 said:

..As for the axle, this is after all a strength sport. Also what other two handed thickbar event won't require whole body strength?

What does..."this is after all a strength sport." actually mean?   I actually want to know what that means. Wrestling, Mas wrestling, Highland games, gymnastics, powerlifting..all don't require the axle.

I don't see some immediate connection here.  Armwrestling is a strength sport and no one monitored John Brzenck to make sure he did squats, or deadliftss.  The inclusion of the Axle is arbitrary...and basically mimics Thickbar lifting for some reason. 

Let me pose a question to the board.  How different would your Axle number be if you pulled from a rack? Serious question.

 

 

I can tell you right now that the Elite lifters would have the least improvement, yet those with strong grips and weak or injured backs,legs, whatever would immediately experience huge jumps. 

If my hypothesis is correct...then what exactly is the point of testing overall strength in a sport named grip?  

There seems to be an idea that a champion needs to be an overall champion...despite being crowned a "Grip Champion".  As far as the beer bellies go(nod to jose)..Vasily Alekseyev and Paul Anderson were never cut specimens...yet they were kinda good at what they did.
 

[KapMan]

 

11 minutes ago, JHenze646 said:

That is why I was making a clear differentiation between regional competitions and a championship level contest.

Maybe this needs to be a committee discussion. I know in other sports certain regional contest are qualifiers. Like a pipe line. How NAS and USS do it is they label a contest.

Plat+, pro card is earned or in our case elite status can be earned at this contest. Something along those lines. I think a clear line drawn between what level contests are would be awesome. 

[KapMan]

3 minutes ago, anwnate said:

 As far as the beer bellies go(nod to jose)..Vasily Alekseyev and Paul Anderson were never cut specimens...yet they were kinda good at what they did.

 

To that point brian shaw and eddie are fat bodies and they crush it.

donnie thompson was the first man to total 3k in powerlifting and was/is a fatass.

I think we have plenty of evidence that bodyweight and composition isnt a huge indicator of strength. Dan fleming is 50 pounds wet and out grips guys 3x his weight.

 

[JHenze646]

21 minutes ago, anwnate said:

What does..."this is after all a strength sport." actually mean?   I actually want to know what that means. Wrestling, Mas wrestling, Highland games, gymnastics, powerlifting..all don't require the axle.

I don't see some immediate connection here.  Armwrestling is a strength sport and no one monitored John Brzenck to make sure he did squats, or deadliftss.  The inclusion of the Axle is arbitrary...and basically mimics Thickbar lifting for some reason. 

Let me pose a question to the board.  How different would your Axle number be if you pulled from a rack? Serious question.

 

 

I can tell you right now that the Elite lifters would have the least improvement, yet those with strong grips and weak or injured backs,legs, whatever would immediately experience huge jumps. 

If my hypothesis is correct...then what exactly is the point of testing overall strength in a sport named grip?  

 

No gripsport event tests grip independent of the body. Everything must be "picked up", even grippers are set in the hand.

"I think medleys unfairly test agility, cardiovascular fitness, and critical thinking under stress." - said no gripsport enthusiast ever

[anwnate]

2 minutes ago, JHenze646 said:

"I think medleys unfairly test agility, cardiovascular fitness, and critical thinking under stress." - said no gripsport enthusiast ever

Ha!  Well played J!