2017 June - NAGS thoughts (promoter perspective)

[MCrushetta]

First - if you came out to NAGS - THANK YOU! We were so excited to get to host it this year in our new gym. We know that traveling for grip competitions isn't always easy and it can be expensive. So thank you!! I was so impressed with some of the lifters - new and seasoned!

Second - The competition ran fairly smoothly - it started at 10 and was over around 5pm, without us taking any major lunch breaks. Just ordered pizza and kept going. There were 17 competitors - one junior, two women. I was going to compete but backed out b/c one of our helper judges couldn't make it and I didn't feel great about competing and judging. Something I hope all competitions eliminate in the future. A bummer but I'll compete in SJ 4 and also next year.

Third - This was our (Gil and I) 7th contest (running) - 2 Squeezes, 2 King Kongs, 1 DBCC, 1 Grip Gauntlet, 1 Nationals. After this last one I am left thinking that if Grip Sport is to continue to grow we need to move forward with a few changes. These recommendations are based on my perspective as a promoter and a competitor - a big picture look at the future of grip and what that means. Please know, when reading these, that my personal preference is to pinch at a width of 48 mm and that I love the double overhand Axle event. 

Various thoughts:

1) The Euro is a cool device with a lot of history. I enjoy using it. It is however, difficult to use in a contest. It takes a long time to set up - change widths - etc. Few people own them and therefore don't train on them. As the person who was taking weight attempts from competitors, it is a nightmare to make sure the width / plate scheme is accurate - even with calibrated plates. Solutions? a) Grow grip sport to a size that there are several euros, all set at different widths, several simultaneous platforms, designated weight loaders etc. A more realistic solution? b) move to a more contested device - a flask, a pinch block - doesn't matter to me - something that is easier to manage in a contest - that hopefully (it is Nationals!) grows to be HUGE.

2) Grippers remain one of the funnest events in grip sport to watch and do. Hard to judge but I love how Nationals does right and left hand. Not sure I love them as a training tool but they are great in a contest. I also like the 20 mm block set - easier for people with small hands not to get nudged out of a credit card setting set up.

3) The Axle - are we contesting grip or are we contesting overall body strength? Deadlifting / Hinging to me - as a strength coach is vital. But it can be a dangerous thing when people can hold onto more with their hands than their back / glutes / core can support. There were a few hitches and injuries at Nationals simply b/c people had better grips than they did overall strength. I would like to see the thick bar event move to a one handed handle - a 2.5 crusher maybe? It's easier to manage loading one handed event weights (hey, it's half as many), and it's safer for competitors. 

If the competitions move faster and are easier to judge and compete in - ultimately grip sport ends up with more people interested and becomes more spectator friendly. 

Overall - a great day - we are honored to host and can't wait to do more to keep this community thriving. 

 

[anwnate]

Great thoughts Maria.

Congrats on another successful competition.

 

Hoping that SJ4 would end up with huge numbers, I made the decision to run a single hand gripper event.  

Besides speed for large contestant numbers, there is another advantage of single hand events. 

They allow someone to compete around an injury.  Hopefully...everyone is training both hands.  

[Boulderbrew]

1 hour ago, MCrushetta said:

But it can be a dangerous thing when people can hold onto more with their hands than their back / glutes / core can support

Hopefully I didn't make anyone cringe too hard with my egregious form haha

[climber511]

First - if you came out to NAGS - THANK YOU! We were so excited to get to host it this year in our new gym. We know that traveling for grip competitions isn't always easy and it can be expensive. So thank you!! I was so impressed with some of the lifters - new and seasoned!

Congrats on a contest well run.

Second - The competition ran fairly smoothly - it started at 10 and was over around 5pm, without us taking any major lunch breaks. Just ordered pizza and kept going. There were 17 competitors - one junior, two women. I was going to compete but backed out b/c one of our helper judges couldn't make it and I didn't feel great about competing and judging. Something I hope all competitions eliminate in the future. A bummer but I'll compete in SJ 4 and also next year.

That seems to be about the standard time used at Gripmas with that number of people.  I have held Gripmas with a separate judge and doing it myself – I just am not always able to find someone qualified to judge that doesn’t want to compete.  I agree in theory but am not always able to do it. I hope my judging has never been a problem – if so it has never been mentioned to me.

Third - This was our (Gil and I) 7th contest (running) - 2 Squeezes, 2 King Kongs, 1 DBCC, 1 Grip Gauntlet, 1 Nationals. After this last one I am left thinking that if Grip Sport is to continue to grow we need to move forward with a few changes. These recommendations are based on my perspective as a promoter and a competitor - a big picture look at the future of grip and what that means. Please know, when reading these, that my personal preference is to pinch at a width of 48 mm and that I love the double overhand Axle event. 

Various thoughts:

1)     The Euro is a cool device with a lot of history. I enjoy using it. It is however, difficult to use in a contest. It takes a long time to set up - change widths - etc. Few people own them and therefore don't train on them. As the person who was taking weight attempts from competitors, it is a nightmare to make sure the width / plate scheme is accurate - even with calibrated plates. Solutions? a) Grow grip sport to a size that there are several euros, all set at different widths, several simultaneous platforms, designated weight loaders etc. A more realistic solution? b) move to a more contested device - a flask, a pinch block - doesn't matter to me - something that is easier to manage in a contest - that hopefully (it is Nationals!) grows to be HUGE.

2)     This has been kicked around forever – and I agree and disagree.  Let me explain.  The difference between pinching at one’s “best” width and any other width can be pretty high – at much as 20 pounds maybe – a very significant disadvantage for those not at their optimum width using only one implement.  Something I’ve kicked around are multiple (various) fixed width implements – as an example the Flask or FBBC’s Climber pinches (or something entirely new even – (David Horne’s Tombstone device comes to mind with a quick change clip).  Changing out the implements is super fast and easy.  The weight differences wouldn’t be all that much and easy enough to add on to the pin and plate weight.  Pulling the pin on a 50mm Flask and putting it back in on a 54mm setup would take only a few seconds – would not require any more weight changes than a fixed width would (would be about the same with FBBCs Climber Pinches made at different widths).  It would be possible even to make all the different width implements the same weight without too much trouble.  Even without making a Flask for each possible width that the Euro offers it would be closer at least.  Say perhaps 3 widths?  50 – 54 – 58 just as an example.  (I pinch at 52 and lose quite a bit off either side of that)

3)     Grippers remain one of the funnest events in grip sport to watch and do. Hard to judge but I love how Nationals does right and left hand. Not sure I love them as a training tool but they are great in a contest. I also like the 20 mm block set - easier for people with small hands not to get nudged out of a credit card setting set up.

4)     Grippers suck .  I know I’m the odd one out here so I don’t have much to say about them.  Everybody can just do their thing and I’ll play the best I can without ever touching the things until contest day LOL.

5)     The Axle - are we contesting grip or are we contesting overall body strength? Deadlifting / Hinging to me - as a strength coach is vital. But it can be a dangerous thing when people can hold onto more with their hands than their back / glutes / core can support. There were a few hitches and injuries at Nationals simply b/c people had better grips than they did overall strength. I would like to see the thick bar event move to a one handed handle - a 2.5 crusher maybe? It's easier to manage loading one handed event weights (hey, it's half as many), and it's safer for competitors. 

6)     This one has given us many hours of debate over the years and has pretty much been responsible for the whole “hand size” debate.  I am one of those whose hands and back strength are about equal on the Axle so it takes me a long time to do the dead lift part – causing lots of misses.  I have had One Hand Axle as an event and that seemed to go well.  I don’t care about one hand or two but the diameter of the device should be considered I think.  Perhaps a 2" Crusher?

If the competitions move faster and are easier to judge and compete in - ultimately grip sport ends up with more people interested and becomes more spectator friendly. 

Overall - a great day - we are honored to host and can't wait to do more to keep this community thriving. 

Thanks for everything you two have done and are doing for the sport!

Results are where?

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by climber511

[acorn]

Chris, we ran the scoresheet on my laptop and I need to pull them off today and send them back to Gil and Maria. I didn't get a chance before I flew out. Should be up soon.

- Aaron

[Mikael Siversson]

10 hours ago, MCrushetta said:

First - if you came out to NAGS - THANK YOU! We were so excited to get to host it this year in our new gym. We know that traveling for grip competitions isn't always easy and it can be expensive. So thank you!! I was so impressed with some of the lifters - new and seasoned!

Second - The competition ran fairly smoothly - it started at 10 and was over around 5pm, without us taking any major lunch breaks. Just ordered pizza and kept going. There were 17 competitors - one junior, two women. I was going to compete but backed out b/c one of our helper judges couldn't make it and I didn't feel great about competing and judging. Something I hope all competitions eliminate in the future. A bummer but I'll compete in SJ 4 and also next year.

Third - This was our (Gil and I) 7th contest (running) - 2 Squeezes, 2 King Kongs, 1 DBCC, 1 Grip Gauntlet, 1 Nationals. After this last one I am left thinking that if Grip Sport is to continue to grow we need to move forward with a few changes. These recommendations are based on my perspective as a promoter and a competitor - a big picture look at the future of grip and what that means. Please know, when reading these, that my personal preference is to pinch at a width of 48 mm and that I love the double overhand Axle event. 

Various thoughts:

1) The Euro is a cool device with a lot of history. I enjoy using it. It is however, difficult to use in a contest. It takes a long time to set up - change widths - etc. Few people own them and therefore don't train on them. As the person who was taking weight attempts from competitors, it is a nightmare to make sure the width / plate scheme is accurate - even with calibrated plates. Solutions? a) Grow grip sport to a size that there are several euros, all set at different widths, several simultaneous platforms, designated weight loaders etc. A more realistic solution? b) move to a more contested device - a flask, a pinch block - doesn't matter to me - something that is easier to manage in a contest - that hopefully (it is Nationals!) grows to be HUGE.

As it is always up the organizer this is hardly much of a problem. If you like the flask etc. then use it. I don't see it being replaced in UK and Sweden where we first started using it anytime soon. We like the fact it is hand size neutral and has a long history. The latter fact gives more credibility to records than replacing the pinch standard every time someone comes up with a new idea and has the tenacity to promote it relentlessly (while taking a p... at previous standards at every opportunity).

2) Grippers remain one of the funnest events in grip sport to watch and do. Hard to judge but I love how Nationals does right and left hand. Not sure I love them as a training tool but they are great in a contest. I also like the 20 mm block set - easier for people with small hands not to get nudged out of a credit card setting set up.

3) The Axle - are we contesting grip or are we contesting overall body strength? Deadlifting / Hinging to me - as a strength coach is vital. But it can be a dangerous thing when people can hold onto more with their hands than their back / glutes / core can support. There were a few hitches and injuries at Nationals simply b/c people had better grips than they did overall strength. I would like to see the thick bar event move to a one handed handle - a 2.5 crusher maybe? It's easier to manage loading one handed event weights (hey, it's half as many), and it's safer for competitors. 

Strongly disagree with the injury aspect. It is far more damaging long term to your back (especially the upper part) to do heavy asymmetrical one handed lifts. It compromises the posture as you are always forced to lift with a twisted/curved upper back. Again and as always it is up to the promoter. If you as promoter don't like the axle then don't include it.

If the competitions move faster and are easier to judge and compete in - ultimately grip sport ends up with more people interested and becomes more spectator friendly. 

Surprising to some perhaps but I suspect quite a few of us don't really care if it is a spectator friendly sport. 

 

 

[KapMan]

4 hours ago, Mikael Siversson said:

 

If the goal is to grow the sport, you have to generate interest. People like to observe first, if it looks fun then people are most likely to do it.

if you dont care if its spectator friendly. Then do it by yourself.

 

 

[Mikael Siversson]

Its never going to be a large sport anyway as most people don't like beating up their hands. Callouses and torn skin etc. will ensure that. What will certainly not work generating broader interest is to badmouth other organizer's competition equipment (in this case David Horne's 2HP) while promoting your own. Its very unnecessary and only creates division. Much better to simply use your own equipment (eg the 'flask' in the Nationals) without explaining how, in your view, much of a p.i.t.a it is to use another organizer's tool.

[anwnate]

3 minutes ago, Mikael Siversson said:

Its never going to be a large sport anyway as most people don't like beating up their hands. Callouses and torn skin etc. will ensure that. What will certainly not work generating broader interest is to badmouth other organizer's competition equipment (in this case David Horne's 2HP) while promoting your own. Its very unnecessary and only creates division. Much better to simply use your own equipment (eg the 'flask' in the Nationals) without explaining how, in your view, much of a p.i.t.a it is to use another organizer's tool.

This is not a Euro bashing thread, nor a Euro vs. Flask discussion. 

This is a thread created by the promoter (and NAGS committee member) of the North American Grip Sport Championship to share her thoughts/perspective on the competition that took place and how the North American Grip Sport Championship may be improved in the future.

It would be a great thing to keep the intent of the thread.

[KapMan]

17 minutes ago, Mikael Siversson said:

Its never going to be a large sport anyway as most people don't like beating up their hands. Callouses and torn skin etc. will ensure that. What will certainly not work generating broader interest is to badmouth other organizer's competition equipment (in this case David Horne's 2HP) while promoting your own. Its very unnecessary and only creates division. Much better to simply use your own equipment (eg the 'flask' in the Nationals) without explaining how, in your view, much of a p.i.t.a it is to use another organizer's tool.

No one bad mouthed anything. 🤦🏻‍♂️

[MCrushetta]

1 hour ago, Mikael Siversson said:

Its never going to be a large sport anyway as most people don't like beating up their hands. Callouses and torn skin etc. will ensure that. What will certainly not work generating broader interest is to badmouth other organizer's competition equipment (in this case David Horne's 2HP) while promoting your own. Its very unnecessary and only creates division. Much better to simply use your own equipment (eg the 'flask' in the Nationals) without explaining how, in your view, much of a p.i.t.a it is to use another organizer's tool.

The sport will grow - as evidenced by things happening in the US these past couple of years - and if people are taught how to train properly their hands won't get that beat up. Everyone wants strong hands. Have you ever met someone that enjoyed passing a jar to someone else? It can grow in different capacities - not everyone may end up competing at an elite level but the easier we make some of the standards and events to access the greater the likelihood that people gain interest. Nobody is complaining and whining about a tool being a "p.i.t.a". I started that post, as someone who promotes and runs a lot of contests, to discuss NORTH AMERICAN GRIP SPORT and what would be happening in the future. We ARE interested in growing it over here and the devices that make that more difficult are worth discussing. 

[Jared Goguen]

3 hours ago, Mikael Siversson said:

Its never going to be a large sport anyway as most people don't like beating up their hands. Callouses and torn skin etc. will ensure that. What will certainly not work generating broader interest is to badmouth other organizer's competition equipment (in this case David Horne's 2HP) while promoting your own. Its very unnecessary and only creates division. Much better to simply use your own equipment (eg the 'flask' in the Nationals) without explaining how, in your view, much of a p.i.t.a it is to use another organizer's tool.

What it's like every time I see Mikael post something.

[Adam Juncker]

I have no issues with any of the lifts or their variations on being contested (one hand versus 2 hand), (this implement vs that).  I would like to know what to train for. If the euro is going to hang around, I'm going to buy one and train it. Just hope we can have a discussion about what is best for the sport. 

My 2 cents on the Euro: it neutralizes hand size differences. It's very nuanced and requires meticulous training and setup. As a competitor it makes me respect those who are strong that much more.   Real life scenarios that require functional hand strength don't offer the opportunity to adjust the width. People new the sport probably don't know what width works best for them.

But what is the best implement to test pinch?
The flask?
Glass bar? (This seems to me to be a very good replication of real life stuff because there are more options for hand placement)
Others?

 

[climber511]

i don't think the Euro is going anywhere any time soon - many promoters have them and will no doubt continue to use them in competition.  In my opinion it is still the fairest test of ones maximum pinch strength possibility out there - and regardless of the time factor is still pretty popular - especially with those of us who have spent some time with it.   Maria's idea of using multiple Euros sounds good - especially for something like Nationals - different people could bring implements to use.  Gripmas had 4 to choose from here last year - one was used for warm ups and one for the comp.  You would need more calibrated plates but that's doable I'm sure. 

The Flask is a nice implement and really only has one downside - it only comes in one width - if that width is your personal favorite then you're in luck - but if not then those it does fit have a significant advantage come comp time.  As to Adams comment on the Euro being nuanced - I'm finding the Flask to be equally so as I start working with it here.  But with a few differences due to the weight distribution difference.  I think one hand pinch has an equal learning curve to get the most out of it - hand/thumb placement is critical to get the most out of it - but does come more naturally to most people (not me).  It's all good.  I won't even bring "seasoning" up

 

[Jared Goguen]

This here is proof that if you say the E word on the gripboard its almost the same and mentioning Mr. #4 closer* himself.

My Euro's surface looks like the face of the moon and it might be the most if not the most seasoned Euro around (living a in a cold, damp NW basement), would it be fair for me to mail them around so that people can crush a WR?

*bwahahaha

[jvance]

That euro is beautiful looking!! Reminds me of when i had a cool damp basement.

[climber511]

We have at different times had multiple loaded up Euros side by side for comparison.  It goes against all reason but a very rough surface doesn't give as high a result as a somewhat somewhat smoother one - then goes back the other way as it get too smooth.  Weird but true.  A sort of Bell Curve thing I guess.  I'll let smarter people than I explain why that might be.  Chalk application works the same way - too much hurts - not helps. 

[MCrushetta]

21 hours ago, Adam Juncker said:

I have no issues with any of the lifts or their variations on being contested (one hand versus 2 hand), (this implement vs that).  I would like to know what to train for. If the euro is going to hang around, I'm going to buy one and train it. Just hope we can have a discussion about what is best for the sport. 

My 2 cents on the Euro: it neutralizes hand size differences. It's very nuanced and requires meticulous training and setup. As a competitor it makes me respect those who are strong that much more.   Real life scenarios that require functional hand strength don't offer the opportunity to adjust the width. People new the sport probably don't know what width works best for them.

But what is the best implement to test pinch?
The flask?
Glass bar? (This seems to me to be a very good replication of real life stuff because there are more options for hand placement)
Others?

 

I am not sure what implement is 'best' to test pinch but I do think no matter what the device we use, there are ways to train for and improve pinch. I also think there is carryover and value in training different widths. I recently added narrow pinch training to help with my flask pulls for SJ4. Similar to the idea that training my front squat will improve my back squat - it will - training should cycle through different implements / intensities. This is how we ultimately stay injury free. 

[Jedd Johnson]

My thoughts in Red:

1) The Euro is a cool device with a lot of history. I enjoy using it. It is however, difficult to use in a contest. It takes a long time to set up - change widths - etc. Few people own them and therefore don't train on them. As the person who was taking weight attempts from competitors, it is a nightmare to make sure the width / plate scheme is accurate - even with calibrated plates. Solutions? a) Grow grip sport to a size that there are several euros, all set at different widths, several simultaneous platforms, designated weight loaders etc. A more realistic solution? b) move to a more contested device - a flask, a pinch block - doesn't matter to me - something that is easier to manage in a contest - that hopefully (it is Nationals!) grows to be HUGE.

There were 2 things that took place at Nationals this year that slowed things down, with regards to the Euro.  First, there was only 1 device used.  We have 2 Euros dedicated to Nationals, that could have split the group into 2 sections and knocked off a lot of time.

The other thing  was how you kept changing widths throughout the event.  It's actually quicker to start at the low widths, finish everyone at that width, then change the width, and finish everyone at that width.  I can't imagine how tough that must have been to keep everything straight, so I'm sure it was a nightmare.  It's much easier to do one width at a time.

These two things would have cut a lot of time off the comp and made it easier for you to run the comp.

2) Grippers remain one of the funnest events in grip sport to watch and do. Hard to judge but I love how Nationals does right and left hand. Not sure I love them as a training tool but they are great in a contest. I also like the 20 mm block set - easier for people with small hands not to get nudged out of a credit card setting set up.

3) The Axle - are we contesting grip or are we contesting overall body strength? Deadlifting / Hinging to me - as a strength coach is vital. But it can be a dangerous thing when people can hold onto more with their hands than their back / glutes / core can support. There were a few hitches and injuries at Nationals simply b/c people had better grips than they did overall strength. I would like to see the thick bar event move to a one handed handle - a 2.5 crusher maybe? It's easier to manage loading one handed event weights (hey, it's half as many), and it's safer for competitors. 

It's true, some people have a stronger grip than posterior chain, but I think a big contributor is that many competitors simply do not know how to deadlift, and if they do, they don't do it enough.  I hear a lot of grip competitors say that they pretty much ONLY train grip events and do not put much emphasis on getting truly strong.  This is a big mistake.

I can't put enough emphasis on the importance of learning proper lifting form.  This is the lifter's job, not the promoter's.  If the competitors learned how to perform the lift properly, injuries would drop, it would seem.  Naturally, if people are bringing damaged backs into Grip Sport, that's a different story, but like I said, I've seen some pretty horrific form.

I just don't like the idea of seeing a time-tested event with a long history being removed due to many of the lifters' form being insufficient.  That would be like saying we need to take out grippers, because lifters don't have good setting technique.

 

[Kluv#0]

1 hour ago, Jedd Johnson said:

My thoughts in Red:

1) The Euro is a cool device with a lot of history. I enjoy using it. It is however, difficult to use in a contest. It takes a long time to set up - change widths - etc. Few people own them and therefore don't train on them. As the person who was taking weight attempts from competitors, it is a nightmare to make sure the width / plate scheme is accurate - even with calibrated plates. Solutions? a) Grow grip sport to a size that there are several euros, all set at different widths, several simultaneous platforms, designated weight loaders etc. A more realistic solution? b) move to a more contested device - a flask, a pinch block - doesn't matter to me - something that is easier to manage in a contest - that hopefully (it is Nationals!) grows to be HUGE.

There were 2 things that took place at Nationals this year that slowed things down, with regards to the Euro.  First, there was only 1 device used.  We have 2 Euros dedicated to Nationals, that could have split the group into 2 sections and knocked off a lot of time.

The other thing  was how you kept changing widths throughout the event.  It's actually quicker to start at the low widths, finish everyone at that width, then change the width, and finish everyone at that width.  I can't imagine how tough that must have been to keep everything straight, so I'm sure it was a nightmare.  It's much easier to do one width at a time.

These two things would have cut a lot of time off the comp and made it easier for you to run the comp.

2) Grippers remain one of the funnest events in grip sport to watch and do. Hard to judge but I love how Nationals does right and left hand. Not sure I love them as a training tool but they are great in a contest. I also like the 20 mm block set - easier for people with small hands not to get nudged out of a credit card setting set up.

3) The Axle - are we contesting grip or are we contesting overall body strength? Deadlifting / Hinging to me - as a strength coach is vital. But it can be a dangerous thing when people can hold onto more with their hands than their back / glutes / core can support. There were a few hitches and injuries at Nationals simply b/c people had better grips than they did overall strength. I would like to see the thick bar event move to a one handed handle - a 2.5 crusher maybe? It's easier to manage loading one handed event weights (hey, it's half as many), and it's safer for competitors. 

It's true, some people have a stronger grip than posterior chain, but I think a big contributor is that many competitors simply do not know how to deadlift, and if they do, they don't do it enough.  I hear a lot of grip competitors say that they pretty much ONLY train grip events and do not put much emphasis on getting truly strong.  This is a big mistake.

I can't put enough emphasis on the importance of learning proper lifting form.  This is the lifter's job, not the promoter's.  If the competitors learned how to perform the lift properly, injuries would drop, it would seem.  Naturally, if people are bringing damaged backs into Grip Sport, that's a different story, but like I said, I've seen some pretty horrific form.

I just don't like the idea of seeing a time-tested event with a long history being removed due to many of the lifters' form being insufficient.  That would be like saying we need to take out grippers, because lifters don't have good setting technique.

 

Axle is  great for a grand event such as Nationals. I bought one over Memorial day weekend and I love it(wish I would have bought one first week I started grip)- hand size does not make that big difference as long as your hands are strong and have fairly good form. My training with it for 2 sessions does not put too much load on lower back,etc  All the talk about growing the sport -well the two best areas would be crossfitters and powerlifters- both groups would enjoy the axle DL for a main event.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Kluv#0

[MCrushetta]

2 hours ago, Jedd Johnson said:

My thoughts in Red:

1) The Euro is a cool device with a lot of history. I enjoy using it. It is however, difficult to use in a contest. It takes a long time to set up - change widths - etc. Few people own them and therefore don't train on them. As the person who was taking weight attempts from competitors, it is a nightmare to make sure the width / plate scheme is accurate - even with calibrated plates. Solutions? a) Grow grip sport to a size that there are several euros, all set at different widths, several simultaneous platforms, designated weight loaders etc. A more realistic solution? b) move to a more contested device - a flask, a pinch block - doesn't matter to me - something that is easier to manage in a contest - that hopefully (it is Nationals!) grows to be HUGE.

There were 2 things that took place at Nationals this year that slowed things down, with regards to the Euro.  First, there was only 1 device used.  We have 2 Euros dedicated to Nationals, that could have split the group into 2 sections and knocked off a lot of time.

The other thing  was how you kept changing widths throughout the event.  It's actually quicker to start at the low widths, finish everyone at that width, then change the width, and finish everyone at that width.  I can't imagine how tough that must have been to keep everything straight, so I'm sure it was a nightmare.  It's much easier to do one width at a time.

These two things would have cut a lot of time off the comp and made it easier for you to run the comp.

2) Grippers remain one of the funnest events in grip sport to watch and do. Hard to judge but I love how Nationals does right and left hand. Not sure I love them as a training tool but they are great in a contest. I also like the 20 mm block set - easier for people with small hands not to get nudged out of a credit card setting set up.

3) The Axle - are we contesting grip or are we contesting overall body strength? Deadlifting / Hinging to me - as a strength coach is vital. But it can be a dangerous thing when people can hold onto more with their hands than their back / glutes / core can support. There were a few hitches and injuries at Nationals simply b/c people had better grips than they did overall strength. I would like to see the thick bar event move to a one handed handle - a 2.5 crusher maybe? It's easier to manage loading one handed event weights (hey, it's half as many), and it's safer for competitors. 

It's true, some people have a stronger grip than posterior chain, but I think a big contributor is that many competitors simply do not know how to deadlift, and if they do, they don't do it enough.  I hear a lot of grip competitors say that they pretty much ONLY train grip events and do not put much emphasis on getting truly strong.  This is a big mistake.

I can't put enough emphasis on the importance of learning proper lifting form.  This is the lifter's job, not the promoter's.  If the competitors learned how to perform the lift properly, injuries would drop, it would seem.  Naturally, if people are bringing damaged backs into Grip Sport, that's a different story, but like I said, I've seen some pretty horrific form.

I just don't like the idea of seeing a time-tested event with a long history being removed due to many of the lifters' form being insufficient.  That would be like saying we need to take out grippers, because lifters don't have good setting technique.

 

The thread has been derailed successfully but I'll chime in one more time. I am interested, as I mentioned before, in moving grip sport forward - not holding onto traditions that don't make sense to keep around. Throughout history this has happened. Some traditions - in theory - are nice to keep ... but we don't use horses and buggies anymore for obvious reasons. There are obviously a lot of emotional attachments to old devices and equipment. That makes sense to me especially if records were set and memories were made. Change can be scary and difficult. This conversation from my end, is meant to throw in some ideas that might suggest progress in grip. To me, that means more inclusivity, ease in promoting, and a larger sport which down the road would be amazing. There will always be garage and basement competitions. I love those - we do that here at our house and probably always will- but that's not what I am intending to talk about in this post. 

.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................

To the points (part 1) in RED above and some further thoughts:

• We ran the thin widths in the beginning and the junior competitor on a separate Euro (the larger one was too heavy for him to lift) to speed things up. The only reason we moved between close widths towards the end was to give people a rest between attempts that were close to their max. And actually to save time. 

• Running two euros is an interesting thought and I'm not opposed to it. It also requires two spreadsheets with different weight calculations and lots of extra people loading plates. I didn't notice that many people jumping in to load plates at Nationals save for a few competitors. 

• Each width has a different total implement weight which requires a computer spreadsheet with formulas or a different loading sheet for each width.

• Since the device is loaded on both sides, it requires double the amount of change plates.

..........................................................................................................................................................................................

To the points in RED (part 2) on the axle:

• Yes, everyone should learn proper form. That means different things for different people. Biofeedback might suggest you lift with a rounded spine if it is OK for you. And actually I am ok with that. In general though, what I am speaking to above is the idea that the hands are stronger than the back which can lead to some type of injury not anticipated. Which could possibly be avoided if we made this about GRIP sport not total body athleticism which has it's place, but doesn't make sense to me if we are talking about grip. Why not use a 2.5 inch handle and do R and L side and combine like grippers? 

• Horrific form is everywhere in the strength world. For a lot of different reasons. It's not always b/c somebody 'didn't train properly' - it could be that they were coached poorly ... they watched a crappy youtube video ... they watched someone else do it ... their body has limitations. I could go on and on. but - 

• Yes the lifter has responsibility to train - But the promoters have a responsibility to look out for the collective best interest and I am more interested in that than putting it back on the competitor and saying, train better next time. 

 

Edited June 7, 2017 by MCrushetta

[Jared Goguen]

2 hours ago, Jedd Johnson said:

It's true, some people have a stronger grip than posterior chain, but I think a big contributor is that many competitors simply do not know how to deadlift, and if they do, they don't do it enough.  I hear a lot of grip competitors say that they pretty much ONLY train grip events and do not put much emphasis on getting truly strong.  This is a big mistake.

 

I can't put enough emphasis on the importance of learning proper lifting form.  This is the lifter's job, not the promoter's.  If the competitors learned how to perform the lift properly, injuries would drop, it would seem.  Naturally, if people are bringing damaged backs into Grip Sport, that's a different story, but like I said, I've seen some pretty horrific form.

I just don't like the idea of seeing a time-tested event with a long history being removed due to many of the lifters' form being insufficient.  That would be like saying we need to take out grippers, because lifters don't have good setting technique.

Is this grip sport or power lifting?

Grip sport at its core is training and testing grip strength is it not? If the answer is yes to that then why have an event that also tests the posterior chain?

How about a Silverbullet hold as you run a distance event or a blob lift and pistol squat as you balance on a ball contest? Do those things sound good for a nationals level event? I assume your answer is no those would not be good events because they test things other then your grip. See where I'm going with this.

As far as your statement about the about the axle being time-test with a long history and that being a reason to keep it in the future seems a little regressive and the part where you compare it to taking out grippers out because of setting technique is a faulty comparison and logical fallacy.

[climber511]

It might be worthwhile considering a limit to the number of competitors - not per contest as that defeats the purpose but per apparatus for speeding up an event.  Say we have 10 people - we can use one apparatus and that gives us a reasonable time frame for completion.  At 11 to 20 you must have two  - 21 up - 3 apparatus etc.  Those numbers are just examples - more thought than the 10 seconds I just gave it should be given.  Almost every contest I have been to has items brought by other competitors or promoters anyway.  So have 2 (or more) Euros - Flasks - Axles - Crushers - or whatever available depending on attendance for an event like Nationals (we know how many are coming ahead of time).  Garage meets probably can do things as always.  Or work it the other way - how many people can get through grippers etc in the desired time?  Then work the needed number of implements from there?  Yes it will requite more helpers etc - that is one downside.  But no matter what events or equipment are used - more people is going to mean more time to get done.  It would be nice to be victims of our success and have attendance grow big enough to make this all necessary.

We have always run Grippers one person at a time - with 2 judges it would be easy enough to do 2 at a time I think.

Pinch I just discussed

Thick Bar - also possible to do two at a time with 2 implements

Odd events - sledge choke - weaver stick - Hercules Hold, anvil  or whatever - is probably a one off

Medley is probably a one off as well.

All these things require more equipment and more help - a problem I know but perhaps possible if things grow enough and some money comes into the sport

 

[Shoggoth]

Just my two cents; Grippers, Euro 2HP, and Axle deadlift are the classic lifts and should be the basis of a national/north american level grip competition. 4th and 5th events are extras. 

I think most healthy males should be able to deadlift 405 competently and safely as well which easily gives them a nice safety buffer for most axle lifts. I know there will be exceptions but competitions aren't based on those exceptions. They're there to find the strongest competitors. 

[Shoggoth]

24 minutes ago, Shoggoth said:

Just my two cents; Grippers, Euro 2HP, and Axle deadlift are the classic lifts and should be the basis of a national/north american level grip competition. 4th and 5th events are extras. 

I think most healthy males should be able to deadlift 405 competently and safely as well which easily gives them a nice safety buffer for most axle lifts. I know there will be exceptions but competitions aren't based on those exceptions. They're there to find the strongest competitors. 

I just see a parallel or 20mm blockset gripper, euro, and axle the same as squat, bench, and dead. They may have a curl event after or even overhead press but at the core there's the big 3. These are the events you train year round for. Anything else is a comp specific event.