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NAGS Announcement - Axles


Jedd Johnson

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We're working on several things, and had a discussion on Axles for contests and for qualification lifts, since it's come up many times.

For contests, a 2" axle with smooth finish is the standard.  So, for qualifying purposes, for ease of acquiring equipment, a 1.9" or 2" bar with smooth finish or even paint or powdercoat finish will be allowed. No knurling or very rough finish is accepted, and no tape where you are gripping is accepted.  Please measure the bar and show the surface on the qualification video you submit.

More updates coming soon.

 

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May I suggest implementing a rule (for competitions within NAGS) that stipulates that full-size (450mm) plates are used down to 10k or better still 5k along with quality spin lockers. The difference is huge if you are used to pull using non spin lockers and smaller size plates (>5% in my case) which reduce the torque. If the plates are not full-size all the way down to at least 10k and you don't use quality spin lockers (and tightened them properly so the plates don't rotate relative to the bar) its like lifting an inch where smaller but denser globes can spin independently relative to the handle.

Edited by Mikael Siversson
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3 hours ago, Mikael Siversson said:

May I suggest implementing a rule (for competitions within NAGS) that stipulates that full-size (450mm) plates are used down to 10k or better still 5k along with quality spin lockers. The difference is huge if you are used to pull using non spin lockers and smaller size plates (>5% in my case) which reduce the torque. If the plates are not full-size all the way down to at least 10k and you don't use quality spin lockers (and tightened them properly so the plates don't rotate relative to the bar) its like lifting an inch where smaller but denser globes can spin independently relative to the handle.

I don't think people have ever used spin lock collars when contesting the axle.    I don't think it's a necessary change because they're 2 different lifts.   Its like comparing the 2.5" crusher to the 2.5" pro dumbbell inch trainer.

The qualifying rules would have to change and in my opinion it'd be difficult to judge exactly how tight everyone is setting up their spin locks. 

Edited by Daniel Fleming
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Well some us will certainly use them (LGC competition) so as long as people are aware that results are not fully comparable. I think spin collars of some sort are used at quite a few competitions. The axle lift is certainly less of a fore arm strength test if the plates are able to rotate relative to the bar. Why would anyone want to make the axle lift less of a forearm test than it could be? Using spin collars of some sort for competitions is not particularly technically advanced.

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It does make a difference, the spinlocks were used at nationals for the times i attended, pretty consistent feel. Eleiko oly plates also should be used when available or a similar style. Metal plates are easier even if tightly locked.

Edited by jvance
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We can take it into consideration.  I wasn't aware there was this big of a difference, to be honest.

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To give a concrete example.

Before I got my 15k and 10k full-size rubber plates I maxed out 147-148k on average with two full-size 20k plates, two smaller diametre 10k Eleiko powerlifting plates, a 5k plate, and two 0.5k plates on each side using lock-jaw collars.

 

After I got full-size plates all the way down to 10k and used Ivanko's spin lockers (2.5k each) tightly secured I am averaging 140k (now three full-size 20k rubber plates on each side), a rather huge difference percentage-wise.

Edited by Mikael Siversson
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We've always used Eleiko Competition Bumper plates down to 10 K - then starting at 5K we use Eleiko steel plates that are smaller.  Mikael is there a difference between bumpers and the thinner steel of the same size?

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Not sure, have not tried back-to-back as I don't have any full diameter steel plates. I am also not sure if smaller diameter or spin locks makes up for most of the difference. The lift itself feels quite different. I think people will be most affected if they are used to train with smaller diameter plates and non-spin locks and then show up for a competition where full-size plates and spin locks are used. The bar will roll out of your hands at weights you could easily handle back home.

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I haven't experimented in depth with the spin-lock and plate-type theory. Given what I know about statics and dynamics, I would need to see more data on the actual difference in results because it's not passing the sniff test for me. The spin-locks effectively change your moment of inertia, which makes it harder to generate angular momentum, but also harder to stop angular momentum. With spin locks, if you don't let it start spinning out of your hand, you won't notice a difference. If it does start spinning out of your hand, it will take longer, but be harder to stop.

The same goes for larger diameter plates, if you can imagine lifting a bar with 10ft tall plates on each end, it could spin, but it would take forever to get up to speed. If you did a quick lift, it would almost be as if the bar was fixed and couldn't roll, but if the plates started rolling, there is no way you could stop them. They act as giant flywheels with tons of stored energy.

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It certainly made a very noticeable difference to me. Maybe if affect some people more than others based on eg wrist strength or some other variable. Pretty sure Jon Vance experienced something similar as he was training the axle with mostly smaller diameter plates.

 

Maybe the grip committee can do a bit of testing? I would feel like I am cheating if I organised a competition and included the axle with smaller diameter plates and some crappy locks.

Edited by Mikael Siversson
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2 hours ago, Mikael Siversson said:

It certainly made a very noticeable difference to me. Maybe if affect some people more than others based on eg wrist strength or some other variable. Pretty sure Jon Vance experienced something similar as he was training the axle with mostly smaller diameter plates.

 

Maybe the grip committee can do a bit of testing? I would feel like I am cheating if I organised a competition and included the axle with smaller diameter plates and some crappy locks.

Yes back in the day i used only one  pair of metal 45s (limited weights) and training numbers were higher. Not sure bc my evidence is purely anecdotal and my thickbar strength could have very well diminished (as its role and percentage of my training has also). Now that i use only full size bumpers and locking collars the weight ramps up more quickly.

Edited by jvance
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Just for conversation sake... I appreciate that the NAGS commitee wants to make the axle lift fair and equitable for all. But i think point of this thread is to make the axle lift more accessible too. NAGS gives the option for a lifter to qualify by video submission. If a lifter completes an axle lift that is "easier" because of the kind of plates they use, this will be sorted out at competition - they won't lift as much. And if some are worried that someone unworthy will qualify because of their setup, then raise the qualifying weight to be lifted. 

Many of us do not have enough discretionary income to justify an IM apolons axle ($200+) or bumper plates. I buy all my weights used and a lot of my equipment that way too.   

I won't take anything away from what others have said in regard to the difficulty of the axle in certain situations because i believe that the comments have more merit than my own. 

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