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2016 International King Kong Grip Challenge - Results


Eric Roussin

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Thanks for putting this together. It brings to mind the age old question of "what is the best way to divide competitors"? By weight? Hand size? A combination of the two? Something else?

The King Kong results, as well as the results from most grip sport contests, seem to indicate that there may not be much of a need for weight classes beyond a certain point (for now). Part of this may simply be due to the fact that grip sport is still relatively new and has not yet attracted many of the biggest, strongest men. If guys like Mike Burke, Mark Felix, Brian Shaw, Rich Williams, etc. started competing in sanctioned grip sport contests, I really believe we'd see a greater correlation between body weight and the majority of events.

This said, I prefer to keep the weight classes as they are, as I believe they are encouraging greater participation.

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@Bryan Hunsaker Thank you for doing this analysis. It is something that I thought about as well after noticing that the top 3 finishers this year were middleweights.

If not weight, then what is the factor that determines success in this sport? Hand size? Forearm circumference? It would be nice if we had the data, even if it was self reported. 

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2 hours ago, Bryan Hunsaker said:

Eric, let me preface with the fact that you, Andrew and many others did a ton of work, and I'm sure everyone is grateful for that!  Thank you for all you guys do!  And congrats to the top finishers!

I don't  mean to detract from the above acknowledgements (nor am I trying to be divisive), but I think this correlation analysis is interesting and worth studying.  For everyone's benefit, if two things are positively correlated, when one goes up, so does the other.  If they are negatively correlated, when one goes up, the other goes down. It is that simple.  As food for thought, please take a second to look at the below correlations:

This is the top 25 competitors, and their placings in each event, correlated with their weight (hopefully no typographical errors on my part):

Place Competitor     Weight            Euro    Crusher           Hub         Vbar
1 Gil Goodman 93   6 4 9 3
2 Jouni Mahonen 93   4 13 2 8
3 Kody Burns 93   1 8 18 2
4 Jake Sahlaney 120   2 16 10 1
5 Leles Vadim 105   11 7 3 10
6 John Stepien 120 + 9 9 23 4
7 Eric Roussin 93   8 2 30 12
8 Phil Horwood 120   25 3 28 6
9 Kupinsky Igor 120 + 24 1 33 5
10 Pupchenko Ivan 105   16 12 12 32
11 Kulikov Sergey 120   32 11 20 10
12 Niko Junnilainen 83   37 28 4 13
13 Paul Knight 105   23 25 14 20
14 Liu Liu 105   17 31 20 27
15 Jedd Johnson 120   3 9 11 72
16 Rob Blair 120 + 10 22 38 26
17 Tim Fox 120 + 18 19 44 15
18 Riccardo Magni 120   26 21 22 29
19 Pasi Mehtala 120 + 7 14 1 85
20 Juha Lehtimaki 120   27 29 5 49
21 Bryan Hunsaker 120 + 29 6 71 7
22 Frank Snyder 120 + 30 23 40 20
23 Dan Fleming 83   15 24 57 19
24 Don Smitley 93   13 32 45 25
25 Fenne Muhonen 83   21 45 26 28
  Correlations of weights to lifts 0.139299 -0.32192 0.0662 0.217639

If any results reflected influence of bodyweight on lifts, it would show up here.

The correlation range is -1 to 1, where a "1" would mean two things are perfectly correlated.  What this shows us is that there are very loose correlations between a weight increase, and a result obtained.  The most positively correlated lift is the VBAR, and as shear weights are the highest there, that makes sense, to a degree.  But even still, it is not a strong correlation at 0.21.

Further, the Crusher results tend to show that an increase in bodyweight does not improve results in that discipline.  And this is the strongest overall correlation result, though it is negative.

The Hub results are near 0, as I'd expect, meaning there's really no effect. 

The Euro results are also marginal, at best.

Here's another interesting item:

Weight   1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Total Top 5s
83         1 1      2
93   1 3 1 2        7
105       1          1
120   2 1 2   1      6
120 + 1     1 2      4

It wasn't possible for every weight class to tally a number in every category.  But 93kg outperformed every other group, in terms of top 5 finishes.  Does this mean it is best to be in that weight class if you want to be good at grip? No.  Does it further illustrate the non-correlative nature of bodyweight and ability to grip?  Yes.

What we can deduce is that the really light lifters (74kg and below) have a difficult time keeping up with the other weight classes, as nobody finished in the top 25 in the 74kg class, or below.  What this likely implies, is that at a certain weight threshold, grip strength approximates peaking, showing diminishing marginal returns as weight continues to increase (or no increase in certain disciplines).  This, though, is specific to KKGC events of 2016.  There are likely other areas of "grip" where different results would present themselves.

Based on the above, I think as a community, "Grip Sport" needs to take a strong look at how it is utilizing bodyweight as a divisional metric, because it isn't correlated above a certain threshold. 

@Jedd Johnson@Squeezus@riccardomagni@Eric Roussin

 

Strong points. 

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@Eric Roussin @Squeezus I honestly don't have an answer for class distinction.  I have a lot to learn in this arena, but did want to point out what I had noticed on the correlations.  Hand size is likely a variable on the Crusher, but could arguably hurt you on the Hub (I'm awful at the hub because I have long, thin fingers - in my opinion, only).  Weight is a limiting factor with anything double-overhand, only if people don't also do standard lifts like deadlift/squat.  Even there, though, I know too many guys that pull crazy weights and only weigh around 200 lbs, thus indicating that weight, alone, isn't a barrier, as much as time/experience with an implement/discipline.  Perhaps the better question is "how do you single-out grip from traditional lifting?" 

Really, a lot of factors play into someone's ability to lift anything.  If weight classes breed competition and participation, great.  I don't think it is reasonable, though, to analyze the Crusher on a bodyweight basis when the world-record is around 100ish KG.  Or take grippers, where a lot of people distinguish themselves: You get someone like Evan who can close a #3, but is maybe half my weight.  I can close a #3, too, but how does my quad size, shoulder size, etc help me in any way?  It is a case of severely diminishing marginal returns, especially as implement weights increase.

What is likely is that people in the heavier weight classes tend to have developed greater "lifting" strength, probably have bigger forearms, and may have bigger hands (in some instances) and those factors, combined, create an overall more effective grip competitor. That said, it is clear that people around 90kg and up, don't have any disadvantages, at least in the case of the disciplines of KKGC, this year.

Regarding the Strongmen you mention, I think that anyone can be good at disciplines where you employ more connective tissue strength, if they put the time in.  If actual muscle size is considered, though, Strongmen will win out.  I like to think as a natural athlete, I have as good a shot as anyone in Grip.  But if the monsters you mention (who aren't natural - surprise) step across the line, they'll likely win at large implements, but may very well struggle at the nuanced lifts that they're not adept at.  My friend Van competed with us in Salt Lake.  He held the world log press record for the better part of a decade, and at 45 still deadlifts 900+ lbs.  His results were all over the place, with a good Crusher and Hub, decent Euro, and terrible VBAR.  Go figure.

Do I have a concrete answer?  No.  I wish I did.  But I do feel we need to be careful about the application of weight distinctions. 

Thank you guys for your thoughts and feedback!

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I would like to see those top 25 guys in a hand size class to see how the results would shake out.

I'm not sure about the way to measure or if everyone would submit accurate measurements, but it would be interesting... 

Bryan brings up several really good points.

Clearly bodyweight is not the same advantage in grip the way it is in powerlifting. 

@bryanhunsaker

 

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Concluding there is little correlation between bodyweight and grip strength based on a single competition is a bit pseudo-scientific. Especially given that this competition attracts quite a few that have never competed before. It is more relevant to use a much larger data base (i.e. the NAGS lists).

Excluding the 59 and 66k classes (because of low numbers of competitors at this stage) we have the following spread in two of the 'big three' (in kilograms 1st-10th). As you can see the WR holder in eg the 83k class in the 2HP as at the same level as the #10 ranked in the 105k class. The correlation is strong up to about 105k (combining the two). I suspect really big and strong people fancy other sports. Chad would smash many records in the 120k+ if he returns to grip sport for example and would make the strongest 93k class guys look rather human.

Euro 2HP

74k - 90.8 (1st) and 77.35 (10th)

83k - 100.48 (1st) and 88.17 (10th)

93k - 124.65 (1st) and 92.40 (10th)

105k - 122.91 (1st) and 100.37 (10th)

120k - 118.52 (1st) and 98.21 (10th)

120+ - 116.20 (1st) and 100.05 (10th)

 

Axle

74 - 155.65 (1st) and 107.50 (10th)

83 - 170.66 (1st) and 137.65 (10th)

93 - 191.65 (1st) and 156.16 (10th)

105 - 212.65 (1st) and 165.00 (10th)

120k - 215.65 (1st) and 169.28 (10th)

120k+ - 200.00 (1st) and 164.65 (10th)

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The best way to 'neutralise' the hand strength of large well-trained competitors is to include fiddly lifts (hub and half-penny lifts etc.). 

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1 hour ago, Mikael Siversson said:

Concluding there is little correlation between bodyweight and grip strength based on a single competition is a bit pseudo-scientific. Especially given that this competition attracts quite a few that have never competed before. It is more relevant to use a much larger data base (i.e. the NAGS lists).

Excluding the 59 and 66k classes (because of low numbers of competitors at this stage) we have the following spread in two of the 'big three' (in kilograms 1st-10th). As you can see the WR holder in eg the 83k class in the 2HP as at the same level as the #10 ranked in the 105k class. The correlation is strong up to about 105k (combining the two). I suspect really big and strong people fancy other sports. Chad would smash many records in the 120k+ if he returns to grip sport for example and would make the strongest 93k class guys look rather human.

Euro 2HP

74k - 90.8 (1st) and 77.35 (10th)

83k - 100.48 (1st) and 88.17 (10th)

93k - 124.65 (1st) and 92.40 (10th)

105k - 122.91 (1st) and 100.37 (10th)

120k - 118.52 (1st) and 98.21 (10th)

120+ - 116.20 (1st) and 100.05 (10th)

 

Axle

74 - 155.65 (1st) and 107.50 (10th)

83 - 170.66 (1st) and 137.65 (10th)

93 - 191.65 (1st) and 156.16 (10th)

105 - 212.65 (1st) and 165.00 (10th)

120k - 215.65 (1st) and 169.28 (10th)

120k+ - 200.00 (1st) and 164.65 (10th)

Keep smoking what you smoking if you think anyone is going to return and make Gil Goodman or Kody Burns look human. Live in the present

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Chad has indeed indicated a return and I believe he is aiming for a 300lb 2HP. He probably got bored from winning just about every grip comp he entered. You can actually disagree while still keeping it somewhat civil.

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On 11/3/2016 at 9:45 AM, Jedd Johnson said:

I want to say congrats to Gil for his win, and well done to so many others.  Some great numbers got put up.

Saturday wasn't my day, obviously, and I couldn't have pulled the comp off without the help of many of the competitors who loaded weights and did other tasks for me on account of my back.  Specifically, thanks to my Dad for ran the camera, Brent Barbe who came and loaded for me, and didn't even compete, and also to @Lucasraymond who kept score and judged the 2" Vbar.  We didn't even think Luke was going to make it down, since he had a previously scheduled trip, but it got cancelled.

Great job and thanks to @Eric Roussin and @Andrew P for promoting the comp, and thanks to anyone behind the scenes I don't know about.

Many great performances in Wysalusing.  John Stepien proved he is a force breaking the old FBBC record (before getting leap-frogged by @JakeNS - awesome numbers dude!

I had a few local guys and semi-local dudes come for their first contest.  Rick Rehfeldt is an absolute monster in the gym and I thought he did awesome for his first ever contest.

Having Brent, @Mike Rinderle and Frank Snyder @Magnus all in the gym was like a time travel back to 2009.  And it was great to have @Paul Knight back to my house, first time since 2008.

Congrats to my good friends @Tank Andrade and his now fiancee, @Amber Edwards, on their engagement, to kick the comp off with an ear to ear smile.  Youngster, Ace Cowboy Anthony Andrade did touble-duty, both competing and playing with my daughter throughout the day and into the night as well.  I wish I had that kind of energy.

There's more people to recognize, which I plan to do with a video.  Thanks and congrats to you all.

Another great meet Jedd,a lot of animals... thanks, hope your back heals soon, I know injures suck.

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