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Feedback About Flask Event At Southern Squeeze


John McCarter

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Jared, thanks for that.

On #1, so it's cleaned down to the metal after each lift or something? John was happy about how it holds chalk so then that's not the "same" surface as any other device anymore. Or did I miss what you meant..? It seems to be the same as the Euro in this respect, but may season quicker than steel.

Oh I see the confusion there, allow me to clear it up some, yes chalk does stick to it so the surface is not 100% the same in that regards but since its aluminium the device will not ever get deep pits with time.

Here is a photo of my Euro plates which are very old which I got from Mike here, and it lives in a pretty damp Northwest basement. You can see the extremely deep pits in the steel, I can lock my thumbs into those like nothing else. I guess thats good if you want to pull the largest numbers possible but at the same time my numbers on this thing don't compare to anyone else's I feel like. I have done a 85lb 1HP with this but I'm no where near the on a pinch block or flask. The only difference is the surface and my Euro is like swiss cheese.

Edit: It's kinda hard to tell in the photo but the pits in are pretty deep. It feels like im pinching 36grit sandpaper, and eats my thumbs and webbing up.

50oNiEN.jpg

Serious pitting going on there. Holy cow

Edited by KapMan
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With Matt's blessing, I will post what I wrote to Chris Rice on here about the differences in the flask and why I made it:

I made the device for a number of reasons, the primary ones being:

  • Competition speed and efficiency
  • Reduced weight for smaller/female competitors
  • Consistency between devices
  • Price

When I came to Nationals in 2015, it was my first event and I had Maria and 3 of my friends come up and cheer me on while I competed. They though it was cool, but a common thread in the discussions that I had with them afterward was how slow and complicated the whole Two-Hand Pinch event was. They said the time between competitors while the spacers were changed and even the weights being added and removed was so long that they got bored and would not want to compete in or watch an event with that device. I defended the device saying it was fairer because of the adjustable nature of it, but they countered, saying that none of the other devices were adjustable so why should this one be different. I thought about this and after some time I agreed. I was still going to use the Euro, when I decided to host my own competition, but then I began to think about how intimidating it was to my friends and started thinking about the IronMind Blockbuster instead, because it is so simple. However, I didn't like how thick it was and how it wasn't very similar to pinching plates, so I figured I could just make something new. So when I designed the flask, I wanted it to be something that I could prepare for each competitor in seconds. I pull the pin, lift the flask, put on a plate, put the flask back down, and put the pin back in. Less than 10 seconds. Done.

The second thing that provoked me to improve upon the euro was attending the National Capital Grip Championship in DC hosted by Tom Scibelli. He put on a very good contest and his home gym is excellent, but the event was 1-Hand Pinch and neither Maria, nor Tom's boys could lift the empty Euro pinch device. I am a strong advocate of strength training for women and children and that applies doubly to grip training. I know of many many strong women climbers and I want to bring men and women climbers both into the grip community because I think that both communities stand to learn a lot from one another, but that becomes complicated when the most popular device cannot even be lifted except by women with very strong pinch grips. I designed the flask with the bare minimum metal necessary to provide a gripping surface with a supporting structure. As a result, it weighs less than 2lbs empty. Combined with one of my loading pins, it is less than 6lbs. So it is possible to load it with very small amounts of weight, opening the door to many more people who might want to compete or simply train on a pinch block with a cylindrical edge like a weight plate.

After touching various carbon steel devices, with varying amounts of rust and varying coatings, I opted for the consistency of 6061 aluminum. The aluminum will not corrode and pit like steel. It forms an ultra thin, protective layer of aluminum oxide on the outside that is smooth and prevents further corrosion. With steel, the friction on the device is subject to many factors, like age, amount of use, humidity, proximity to salt, use of oxidizing compounds (brine solution or acid), etc. With the flask, unless someone uses a tool to score the surface, every device will be exactly the same texture, regardless of where it is or how old it is. The only difference between my old flask and a brand new flask in China is how much chalk is on each one, which can easily be remedied with a brush.

The last thing that prompted the creation of something different is price. After factoring in the device itself, the pipe, the two sets of collars, and shipping, I was over $300 in on a Euro. For someone like me with a decent job and an obsession with grip stuff, that wasn't a huge deal, but your average person either a) doesn't care to spend that much money on a workout tool, or b) doesn't have that much money to spend on a workout tool. I wanted to make the device cheap enough that pretty much anyone could afford one, so I concentrated on streamlining my process so that I could keep it under $100. I also wanted to make it so that it was compatible with any kind of loading pin so most people can save $20 on that as well.

Also, Shawn is correct, the device cannot be tilted as easily, since the weight hangs below it. Furthermore, since it does not have a pipe through the middle, you cannot torque it against your calf to increase grip pressure. It is simply closer to mimicking the physics of pinching two 45's together, which is what I imagine the Euro to simulate.

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Gil - feel free to share my comments back to you. I didn't see this thread before PMing Gil about the Flask or I would have put it up on here.

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Here is the full text after Chris added his comments. Apparently we both should have been novelists.

Chris,

I’m copying this into Word so I can insert answers and thoughts better.

I made the device for a number of reasons, the primary ones being:

  • Competition speed and efficiency – the biggest issue with the Euro
  • Reduced weight for smaller/female competitors – it’s a shame that we haven’t attracted more females and kids – but as long as Grip Sport is associated with 400# axle dead lifts (or any of the big number lifts) – we are not going to get the lighter men – women – or kids involved). But this is what does attract the larger stronger men to the sport. It’s a quandary I have given a lot of thought to over the years. It may require two separate contests to make it work. I have considered it.
  • Consistency between devices – it hasn’t been much of an outward issue but it has been a little behind the scenes – morso back when the device was new.
  • Price

When I came to Nationals in 2015, it was my first event and I had Maria and 3 of my friends come up and cheer me on while I competed. They though it was cool, but a common thread in the discussions that I had with them afterward was how slow and complicated the whole Two-Hand Pinch event was. They said the time between competitors while the spacers were changed and even the weights being added and removed was so long that they got bored and would not want to compete in or watch an event with that device. I defended the device saying it was fairer because of the adjustable nature of it, but they countered, saying that none of the other devices were adjustable so why should this one be different. I thought about this and after some time I agreed. I was still going to use the Euro, when I decided to host my own competition, but then I began to think about how intimidating it was to my friends and started thinking about the IronMind Blockbuster instead, because it is so simple (but seriously flawed by its finish). However, I didn't like how thick it was and how it wasn't very similar to pinching plates, so I figured I could just make something new. So when I designed the flask, I wanted it to be something that I could prepare for each competitor in seconds. I pull the pin, lift the flask, put on a plate, put the flask back down, and put the pin back in. Less than 10 seconds. Done.

The amount of talk that has gone into the whole hand size issue over time is insane – especially for Axle. The popularity of the Euro event – in spite of its complexity is what everyone perceives is it’s “fairness” factor for everyone of any hand size. I think there will be considerable resistance at this point in the NAGS community to a fixed width. That said I can see the aluminum surface plates as a very popular alternative to the steel – for several reasons as stated by you. I have addressed the ladies weight problem in the past with a PVC bar and smaller collars with success (with 2 hands) – but it still might not be enough for kids or a one hand event.

The second thing that provoked me to improve upon the euro was attending the National Capital Grip Championship in DC hosted by Tom Scibelli. He put on a very good contest and his home gym is excellent, but the event was 1-Hand Pinch and neither Maria, nor Tom's boys could lift the empty Euro pinch device. I am a strong advocate of strength training for women and children and that applies doubly to grip training. I know of many many strong women climbers and I want to bring men and women climbers both into the grip community because I think that both communities stand to learn a lot from one another, but that becomes complicated when the most popular device cannot even be lifted except by women with very strong pinch grips. As a climber myself I too have tried to get some of my climbing friends interested but the whole idea of huge men lifting huge weights always turns them off – I think a lightweight only comp may be necessary to reach this group. I designed the flask with the bare minimum metal necessary to provide a gripping surface with a supporting structure. As a result, it weighs less than 2lbs empty. Combined with one of my loading pins, it is less than 6lbs. At this weight as a starting point there is certainly some wiggle room available for adding an adjustable aspect to the Flask before reaching any kind of weight that would be a problem for women or kids. So it is possible to load it with very small amounts of weight, opening the door to many more people who might want to compete or simply train on a pinch block with a cylindrical edge like a weight plate.

I have already had my thinking cap on as to how to adapt your design to an adjustable apparatus when I first saw it – it shouldn’t be all that hard really and would add very little to the empty weight. I wouldn’t build one or do it of course as it’s your idea but you might consider ways to set that up – I think it would be accepted much easier that way. One could of course build one for each width but that’s kind of ridiculous :). The other question as to acceptance is going to be how records compare between the two apparatus. We need to get it in the hands of some very experienced 2 HP guys and see what they can lift on it. I love the idea of a loading pin – you could even run two pins – one being loaded as the other is lifted etc. The event could be extremely quick with something along these lines. If the adjustments could be made with just a snap in (on on) system – changes could be almost instantaneous.

After touching various carbon steel devices, with varying amounts of rust and varying coatings, I opted for the consistency of 6061 aluminum. The aluminum will not corrode and pit like steel. It forms an ultra thin, protective layer of aluminum oxide on the outside that is smooth and prevents further corrosion. With steel, the friction on the device is subject to many factors, like age, amount of use, humidity, proximity to salt, use of oxidizing compounds (brine solution or acid), etc. With the flask, unless someone uses a tool to score the surface, every device will be exactly the same texture, regardless of where it is or how old it is. The only difference between my old flask and a brand new flask in China is how much chalk is on each one, which can easily be remedied with a brush.

Even with the differences in the “feel” of the plates the weights being lifted by the various experienced competitors seems to not change by any appreciative amount from set up to set up. But the question always remains between different comps especially.

The last thing that prompted the creation of something different is price. After factoring in the device itself, the pipe, the two sets of collars, and shipping, I was over $300 in on a Euro. For someone like me with a decent job and an obsession with grip stuff, that wasn't a huge deal, but your average person either a) doesn't care to spend that much money on a workout tool, or b) doesn't have that much money to spend on a workout tool. I wanted to make the device cheap enough that pretty much anyone could afford one, so I concentrated on streamlining my process so that I could keep it under $100. I also wanted to make it so that it was compatible with any kind of loading pin so most people can save $20 on that as well.

Sorry this is so long winded, but I know you are a craftsman yourself and I wanted you to know my whole thought process. I don't want to make David or Jedd's devices obsolete, I think they are great training tools, but as a person wanting to bring more people to gripsport and make promoting events easier and faster, I felt that this was something valuable that I could contribute. I hope that you try one some day and like it, as you are one of the people I respect most in this sport as an athlete and as an inventor. Thank you!

I love this kind of discussion and could do it all day – I have an open mind on change but normally change has to be incremental in lifting sports – no one wants to lose their old records/results due to a radical change in apparatus or methods. Please consider ways to make it quickly adjustable – I think that will go a long long way towards its acceptance. And if I can be of any help please just ask – I love new projects – gives an old retiree something to do :)

-Gil

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I haven't used the flask before but I have competed in many grip contests with the euro. While I believe that the euro is great for being fair and gives everyone an opportunity to hit their pinch sweet spot, I'm completely sick of competing in contests that use it. Sometimes a contest with 10 guys can take almost 2 hours to get through that one event. It drains the fun out of a grip contest and let's face it, no one is making a living competing in grip, so if it's not fun why do it. Between that, rising bar and too many warmup attempts, grip contests just aren't as fun for me as they used to be. Reading the reports and watching the video, the flask sounds great. I have been using the Ironmind Blockbuster Pinch lately and yes the finish leaves something to be desired and the width is not my optimal one, I would rather have a pinch event with that, the flask or a Saxon bar then the euro.

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Something that Chris mentioned above was a pretty good idea, the ATB comes in three or four different diameters that you can use, if you did the same for the flask And made three or four of the most popular euro widths I think that would answer the adjustability part. Maybe even competitors could bring their own flasks to competitions to use?

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Something that Chris mentioned above was a pretty good idea, the ATB comes in three or four different diameters that you can use, if you did the same for the flask And made three or four of the most popular euro widths I think that would answer the adjustability part. Maybe even competitors could bring their own flasks to competitions to use?

I like this idea. There are only a couple common widths for the Euro. This would be a good compromise.

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What is it about the edges that they don't tear thumbs? Given that in both cases (Flask and Euro) it is metal versus skin, I can't imagine that it's anything about the properties of aluminum as compared to steel. More likely, the edge on the Flask is just rounder in nature and I'm not clear why a similar edge could not be put on Euro plates.

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Could some one please tell what the... this flask thing is? I'm on GB all the time and it completely escaped me apparently. Pictures?

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Thanks gentlemen!

It's clear to me now. Looks great! Would be very easy to take with me to the gym. This is the main reason why I still haven't finished my europinch set up.

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My Euro is quite rounded - I never get "cut" - if I go too wide I can get tears where the skin gets stretched during a heavy miss - but this can happen even on the very rounded Climber Pinches made with rectangular tube with a huge radius. The "possible" curve depends on the thickness of the plate used on the outside. An eighth inch plate cannot be made as rounded as a one half inch as an example - it's not possible. Many feel that a relatively sharp edge actually can contribute to a bigger lift by providing "bite". I haven't found it personally but have talked to those who have.

A question - what is the curve like - a 35# plate etc as an example - similar to the euro ???

Edited by climber511
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I haven't used the flask before but I have competed in many grip contests with the euro. While I believe that the euro is great for being fair and gives everyone an opportunity to hit their pinch sweet spot, I'm completely sick of competing in contests that use it. Sometimes a contest with 10 guys can take almost 2 hours to get through that one event. It drains the fun out of a grip contest and let's face it, no one is making a living competing in grip, so if it's not fun why do it. Between that, rising bar and too many warmup attempts, grip contests just aren't as fun for me as they used to be. Reading the reports and watching the video, the flask sounds great. I have been using the Ironmind Blockbuster Pinch lately and yes the finish leaves something to be desired and the width is not my optimal one, I would rather have a pinch event with that, the flask or a Saxon bar then the euro.

Jeff I'm in the same boat as much as I like the euro I'm getting to the point that I can't give up 12 hours for a contest anymore.

Edited by Andrew P
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A question - what is the curve like - a 35# plate etc as an example - similar to the euro ???

I believe its the same as a 45lb plate.

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Having only been to one competition with the Euro, I did feel like it was a slow event

also, it sucks to not be able to compair yourself with everyone's lifts while the event is still unfolding. You might have the most amount of weight in your size only to be beaten an hour later when the other sizes get to lift.

That said, the idea that you get to pick your own width does seem like a fair equalizer...

Here is another idea,

But what if everyone has to do a narrow pinch and a wide pinch (of set sizes) and then the totals for both get added together. To allow you to work your strengths, say you get 6 attempts total which you can use however you want (ie 2 at narrow and 4 at wide vs 3and3 or 5 narrow and 1 wide).

What are the most common sizes done anyway?

But in looking at The Flask again, I will have a bunch of re-reading to do at work. I love when a thread gets real active.

Always insightful.

sorry to ask a question that might have already been answered, but:

How/Why did you pick the width for The Flask anyway?

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A question - what is the curve like - a 35# plate etc as an example - similar to the euro ???

I believe its the same as a 45lb plate.

This is correct. It's a 16.5 radius, but can be set for 15-3/4" to 18-3/4" pick height using the four pin holes.

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Having only been to one competition with the Euro, I did feel like it was a slow event

also, it sucks to not be able to compair yourself with everyone's lifts while the event is still unfolding. You might have the most amount of weight in your size only to be beaten an hour later when the other sizes get to lift.

That said, the idea that you get to pick your own width does seem like a fair equalizer...

Here is another idea,

But what if everyone has to do a narrow pinch and a wide pinch (of set sizes) and then the totals for both get added together. To allow you to work your strengths, say you get 6 attempts total which you can use however you want (ie 2 at narrow and 4 at wide vs 3and3 or 5 narrow and 1 wide).

What are the most common sizes done anyway?

But in looking at The Flask again, I will have a bunch of re-reading to do at work. I love when a thread gets real active.

Always insightful.

sorry to ask a question that might have already been answered, but:

How/Why did you pick the width for The Flask anyway?

I chose the width by factoring in the thickness of two common 45 plates and the common preferred euro widths. I feel the device is to train for picking up 2 45s, so I wanted it to feel the same.

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I haven't used the flask before but I have competed in many grip contests with the euro. While I believe that the euro is great for being fair and gives everyone an opportunity to hit their pinch sweet spot, I'm completely sick of competing in contests that use it. Sometimes a contest with 10 guys can take almost 2 hours to get through that one event. It drains the fun out of a grip contest and let's face it, no one is making a living competing in grip, so if it's not fun why do it. Between that, rising bar and too many warmup attempts, grip contests just aren't as fun for me as they used to be. Reading the reports and watching the video, the flask sounds great. I have been using the Ironmind Blockbuster Pinch lately and yes the finish leaves something to be desired and the width is not my optimal one, I would rather have a pinch event with that, the flask or a Saxon bar then the euro.

Jeff I'm in the same boat as much as I like the euro I'm getting to the point that I can't give up 12 hours for a contest anymore.

This was big for me too when I was planning the Southern Squeeze. Nobody, especially newer people, wants to spend all day at a competition. At the Squeeze we started around 10am and around noon we were done with grippers and the flask including instructions/rules for both events. It was super fast and easy and we only needed one judge and one scorekeeper per platform.

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I think some might be remembering contests of times gone by. Adam Glass ran a heavily attended grip decathlon, which included Euro, in a matter of hours. How long did 2HP take at Nats?

Anyway, I think I have a better grasp (heh) on the benefits of the flask. Thanks for the discussion y'alls.

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We had 17 competitors at Gripmas this year. Started at a few minutes after 10AM and were eating just after 4PM. Only had one platform but did have a separate warm up apparatus. Four events - ISG - Euro Pinch - IM Axle - 4 Minute Medley. Everyone was pitching in and that helped so very much - plus I had great help. If I had a bigger building - there are some things I could have done to make it much quicker.

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For me, it's not just how well it can hold chalk. What I encountered was a device that felt exactly like the Euro pinch that I had been using. If I wasn't wore out I did want to see how much I could do 2 hand since my 1hp was nearly the same on both devices.

The trouble I've had with the euro in training is having to adjust it to fit what I was going after; that is why I left the device put together most of the time. Putting mine together took 45 minutes to get everything set right, and that has always been an issue. This is one of the major reasons I enjoy the Flask, super quick time changes can be done without wasting time/energy/effort.

I do think both are wonderful devices to train and compete on. The Flask should never replace what has been done on the Euro (1h or 2h). Should there be sizes to accommodate different widths people are use to? Maybe but that will depend upon Gil and if he wants to do that.

I was beyond impressed with the Flask that for me personally, I cannot go back to working the Euro and had no reason to actually owning one. Will I regret that move? Nope.

The biggest thing I noted is that with the Flask, if you go to any type of gym, you could take it and train your pinch with no problem whereas the euro is why to bulky to do that.

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