Herman Goerner's One Hand Record

[Bill Piche]

Just got IronGrip...

In it states that David broke Herman's world record one-hand lift with his recent 335kg.

I guess I wasn't sure what the exact poundage was for Herman?

[Tou]

Maybe I'm wrong but I think Goerner's lift was a full deadlift. It was a regular olympic bar and the range of motion was the same as a full deadlift. David Horne did a partial deadlift with 335 kg.

Don't get me wrong, I think that David Horne is the best grip master we have seen in many years, the best since Goerner according to many. Let's face it : 335 kg one hand lift, 143 pounds one hand pinch and 50 pounds plate curl. Add a #3 closure to this list and you know you have affair to a master.

[David Horne]

I've posted this info before, but I'll quickly give you the details.

Goerners lifts.

One hand deadlift using an olympic barbell 330k (727 1/2lb) performed on 8 October, 1920 in Leipzig.

One hand lift of a sandstone block 332.9k (734lb) performed on July 20, 1920.

I believe he could have done more, but this was the best poundage performed on this lift. I can only try to better what has been done. As for the One hand deadlift using an olympic bar. Well, I think you need the back strength of a 800lb+ deadlifter, as well as a great grip. I haven't got that kind of back strength, so this record is definitely safe from me.

Hope this helps, David

[Bill Piche]

So the claim for world record over Herman is based purely on poundage hoisted?  Regardless of how it was done?

[David Horne]

Bill,

His sandstone block lift would have been a short range lift, presumably with a 1" handle of some sort. Actually I did not use a hook grip, but what the ####-who cares! You already know what I wrote about regarding the one hand lift. Nuff said.

David

[Bill Piche]

Well, for those who don't get the magazine here is what was stated:

David Horne claimed the world record on the one hand lift with 335kg, beating Herman Goerner's longstanding record.

Yes, nuff said.

[David Horne]

No, in a previous article devoted totally to the one hand lift. Vol.1 #2. page 18/19.

David

[Paul A Marsland]

As a personel witness to David actually performing this lift I can state that it was a good lift wether it be a partial or full deadlift is of no real relavance. Without wishing to sound disrespectful is there a picture of Herman performing his Deaddlift from the floor or is it a similar lift to which David performed??. Also David has forgot to mention that A; he had a still slightly injured thumb, B A sore lower back, and C, the lift was performed half way through a tough grip competition in blistering heat. Although he was sitting in the shade the lucky buggar!!! I think credit is due were it's due and IT'S DUE!!!!!

Nuff said.

Paul

[Guest scotte]

Bill

Please dont take offence at what I am about to say, its not personal, just an observation.

It seems to me that unless someone uses a calabrated bar, weights or gripper, you are not fully satisfied that they have achieved anything.  From your postes on peoples COC #3 achievements you have less than complimentary.  You nealy always ask for accurate calabrated poundages and loosley congratualte their achievents.

David is a profesional historian.  Historians, by deffinitian reserch written documentation of history.  They can only present proof of achievents if they were recorded at the time in antiquity.  If the histrocal record shows that Goerners lifted:-

One hand deadlift using an olympic barbell 330k (727 1/2lb) performed on 8 October, 1920 in Leipzig and

One hand lift of a sandstone block 332.9k (734lb) performed on July 20, 1920 then we MUST accept this as the official record.  The sandstone block must have been a partial lift.  We know the mass of the block, and David lifted more than 332.9 on the day.  Argument settled, David Horne has beaten Gourners record.

But wait a minute.  What is a partial lift? Exactly how far off the floor would he have lifted from, what was the exact hip angle, the exact handle size, was it a thumbless, hook or normal grip, are we sure it exactly weighed 332.9kg, was Davids weights exactly 335Kg.

If you want to make grip lifting into an OFFICIAL guiness book of records type, olympic calabrated accurate event, then you have to scrap all records and start from afresh in aseptic, clinical conditions.

Bill you have taken the spirit of lifting and tainted it with a fundamentalism, an extreamism and closed mindedness which takes the letter of 'record weights' to an unrealistic singularity.

If you want to go along that sort of route then fine, but dont discredit peoples achievements in the meantime!

Say you were to target a record (a 400lb middle finger lift for the sake of argument) and someone says 'but are we sure it was 400lb?  How do we know it wasnt 399lb'  How the #### would that make you feel?

As Ive stated at the start, I am not 'attacking' anyone personaly.  I want to open everyones eyes and make you think for a minute.  Its easy to comment on a persons achievement.  Achieveing somthing is a LOT HARDER!

[Guest StrongerthanArne]

I agree with both parties actually. In the recent Löddeköpinge Grip Challenge all weights used were carefully weighed using the most accurate method available to us (no, we did not use a bathroom scale), which was an accurate scale calibrated using Eleiko's competition plates. So, when for example 120 kg was loaded on the bar that ment that the bar weighed at least 120.0 kg. I think that calibration of weights used in a comp. is a good thing that can be done with relatively little difficulty. On the other hand discredit peoples achievments just because they did not have access to calibrated equipment is nothing that I would endorse.

[Roark]

We should be cautious how much we accept

about Goerner. Remember he claimed that

after one and a half years in a WW II Polish

war camp, he was able at age 56 to C&J 320,

and to place 850 lbs on his shoulder [not shoulders]

and walk around with it.

Maybe this is true, but there are several claims

about his strength that need to be studied. And

the point about no photo of his record deadlift is

a valid point even though the absence of evidence

is not of itself, evidence, it is a cause of wonder.

Meanwhile, David Horne did what he did, and

although there is a romance about the history of

lifting, we should not discount current strength men

from being able to match or surpass some of the

former feats, especially those that were not well

documented.

Mueller wrote his book on Goerner much from

memory, not notes, or documentation.

[Bill Piche]

"It seems to me that unless someone uses a calabrated bar, weights or gripper, you are not fully satisfied that they have achieved anything.  From your postes on peoples COC #3 achievements you have less than complimentary.  You nealy always ask for accurate calabrated poundages and loosley congratualte their achievents. "

No, you are wrong on this. Point me one post where someone closed a 3 and I was less than complimentary. The posts are all here. Use the search engine.  Or anything else for that matter. Before you start judging me you should have your facts straight.

Discredit?  There was NO discrediting.  Where did I discredit it? A record was claimed, period.  All I was doing was asking IF it truly was believed to be a world record BEATING the record people attest to for Herman.  That's it.  Actually, I agree with Roark.

You are trying to extrapolate this and describe how "I" think and you are way off.  Way off.

No one said anything about calibration or ANYTHING like that.

[Bill Piche]

One more thing...GUESS who did the sub-titles on this board for some of the people? Check out David's. I am the one who came up with that subtitle and put it there a LONG time ago. So, that should tell you what my opinion is of David and his achievements.

[Guest 77-1005097254]

I felt I had to give credit to Joe Kinney and his amazing crushing strength.

I now feel, David Horne deserves equal credit for what I witnessed in person on July 31.

If Joe's closing of the no4 was descibed by me as like a hydraulic press, then I wish you had seen David's pinch lifts.

His one hand pinch of 65kg! exploded of the ground with incredible power. I could not believe what I had just witnessed, but I had. 70kg even moved!!

And that was only the start. I was standing no more than 6ft away, and with a clear view saw David's awsome lift off 335kg. It WAS good.

The rest of the lifts David did that day speak for themselves.

David is the" King Of Total Hand Strength."

[OldGuy]

If Horne's onehanded deadlift is to be compared to Goerner's , it must be be done with the same equipment . Using a hand and thigh type rig is the easiest way to raise a heavy weight from the floor . If a record for a onehanded deadlift is to be claimed using that setup , then someone else could claim a new record for the deadlift using two hands in the hand and thigh lift saying it doesn't matter how you lift it a lift is a lift . I find it difficult to accept records that are done in ones own backyard using ones own rules and not under the governing of a recognized weightlifting federation .

[David Horne]

It's only to be compared with his one hand LIFT, not the one hand DEADLIFT.

Crikey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest scotte]

What the #### has happened to you guys?!

Are you in the sport for the money, fame and greed that has pervaded other sports?  

Everyone who was at the contest in July can testify that David Horne lifted more weight one handed in such a fashion than has been documented before or since!  PERIOD

The aparatus mimiked a lift that could have been done by Gourner.  There is no way (other than building a time machine) to accuratly verify the exact weight of the sandstone block so we must assume it did weigh 332.9kg.   If it was less, then David did even better than we give him credit, but we will never know for sure.  

Do we want to go the way of powerlifting and set up 100 different federations?  For god sake stop being so bloody narrow minded and pedantic!

[OldGuy]

Your lift was the easiest way to raise a lot of weight from the floor using one hand . You can only claim a record if Goerner used the same equipment . As it is you must compare the lift only to those done on the same equipment . It could well be a record for a one handed hand and thigh lift . Who knows ?

[Guest scotte]

Bill

The danger of writing on this bb is that people can infer different interpritations of what you intended.  From your relentless crusade to get people to clarify the exact 'weight' squeezed and not just claim an arbitrary COC label, I wrongly infered your underlying intensions.  Sorry if I offended you.

(Edited by scotte at 2:02 pm on Sep. 26, 2001)

[Paul A Marsland]

Old Guy? Why do you find hard to accept records claimed in someones back yard own using their own equipment and not under a govering body??David had 14 independant witnessess who all say the same thing. IT WAS A GOOD ONE HAND LIFT OF 335 KILOS!!!!!

They all used the same equipment to compete on sowhat's the problem? I don't see one. Believe me having met David he is a genuinely nice guy,but is a stickler for the rules as I personally found out when I questioned a lift. David did his best to make sure that any official rules were adhered to as best as possible. I am not on some sort of personal crusade here for David but I think your being a tad disrepectful.

How much can "you" lift with one hand? do "you" use your "own" equipment? do "you" train in your garage?/backyard, do "you" have any witnessness  who can verify "your" lifts? do "you" follow any govering rules when you lift?? and on and on we go.

Unless we can bring Herman back to life and compare like for like this is a pointless debate.

Enough said

Paul

[OldGuy]

Mr Marsland , do you not think that lifts should only be compared for record purposes using identical equipment ?

[Guest scotte]

Old guy

Im sorry but i totaly disagree and am unsure what you are trying to say.  If you look at any world record, you do not need to use the same equipment.  If the world record C&J was set in Mosco 1978 and beaten in the USA 2001 you cant say 'sorry mate, its not a record 'cos you used york plates and a different bar'.  Use your COMMON SENSE.

If Gourner lifted a block weight he did so with either a hook grip or a normal one.  He could not have done a 'hand and thigh' due to the shape of the block.  David has studied the accounts and emulated the lift as accuratly as he can.  Period.  So whats the point you are trying to make?

Bill, the inferance I obtained at the start of the thread was that you questioned the validity of Davids clame to have broken Gourners 1HL record.  If it was not, I again apologise.  It does, however, highlight the need for clarity when we post as to aviod confusion.

Now i may be wrong, but i get the feeling that some people dislike achievent and thats why David is suddenly getting a lot of flak.

[OldGuy]

Horne used a onehanded hand and thigh lift. It can only be compared to other onehanded hand and thigh  lifts . If Goerner used a sandstone block or an olympic bar to do his onehanded lifts , then the same equipment must be used to beat his records .

[David Horne]

Where do we start! In the article I wrote about the "ONE HAND LIFT" (hopefully old guy can read this) as I did not state one hand deadlift, or a one hand hand & thigh. Anyway, I mentioned Hackenschmidt's, Eugene Caouette's, John Gallacher's, Richard Sorin's and the apparatus used at the Celcon sponsored championship. The apparatus for all these lifts vary, but most are a significantly shorter range lift, and use a 1-1 1/4" handle. The apparatus we used was similar.

Well what the ####.

By the way, Goerner used a hook grip for his according to Mueller, and we didn't.

Bye all, David

[Guest baldy]

Before I do my gripwork I look at those pictures of the British Grip comp for inspiration.  David Horne's pinch lift and Michael Daly's plate curl speak for themselves.  Very few people can duplicate either of those feats of strength.  Roosevelt said, it is easy to sit back and talk about "how the strongman stumbled, or the doer of deeds could have done better..." but as for me, "congrats on breaking the world record"