MattM Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Great article on round back pulling. http://www.t-nation.com/training/strong-case-for-the-rounded-back-deadlift Eric: Have you tried overloading the high end of your pulls? I am currently working on bringing up my lockout (because I tend to round or hitch to finish the lift), I could also suggest bringing up your hip strength, maybe by doing heavy glute bridges or generally more glute work. Another approach is to put around 90% or 95% of your deadlift on the bar on high pins, and pulling a single then lowering the pins until you notice yourself rounding. Lighten the load and work from that ROM until your are able to pull without rounding after doing your normal deadlift workout. Just a suggestion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 22, 2015 Author Share Posted February 22, 2015 Great article on round back pulling.http://www.t-nation.com/training/strong-case-for-the-rounded-back-deadliftEric: Have you tried overloading the high end of your pulls? I am currently working on bringing up my lockout (because I tend to round or hitch to finish the lift), I could also suggest bringing up your hip strength, maybe by doing heavy glute bridges or generally more glute work. Another approach is to put around 90% or 95% of your deadlift on the bar on high pins, and pulling a single then lowering the pins until you notice yourself rounding. Lighten the load and work from that ROM until your are able to pull without rounding after doing your normal deadlift workout. Just a suggestion!Matt, I have trained heavy lockouts in the distant past, using heavy enough weights that callouses tearing became the limiting factor. But the real reason I quit them was the realization that I seemed unable to mimic the actual mechanics of a full deadlift lockout. When I use my normal rounded back form I get stuck just above the knees. This seems pretty standard for guys using a rounded form. At this sticking point I think lower back is the limiting factor for me.You and Rick have been nice enough to give me a lot of thoughtful advice, which I really appreciate. It makes me question all my dogmas and really think things through. So, I hate to come across as stubborn and thick headed (even though I am), but currently the small improvement I've made in back extension and all the PVC pipe rolling has me feeling better than I have in ten years. Knock on wood. Assistance exercises hitting muscle groups already hit hard by the core lifts have really never boosted my core lifts. Maybe it's a personal problem! I dunno. Lol. Really, both you guys are giving me great advice for flattening out my back and making it work. But right now after a lot of thought and some research I'm happy with my form. Key to making it work for me is avoiding max efforts and performing the bulk of my workload with a flatter back than I would use for contests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 22, 2015 Author Share Posted February 22, 2015 Squat 356x6x3 Bench 253x6x2 212x13 Curl Bar 121x5x3 Sit Up 35x10x3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoggoth Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I'm a nobody when it comes to this stuff but how about train the hell out of your back. 4-5 days a week hitting either rows or some sort of pull-up. If you like your form why not make it as strong as possible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Great article on round back pulling.http://www.t-nation.com/training/strong-case-for-the-rounded-back-deadliftEric: Have you tried overloading the high end of your pulls? I am currently working on bringing up my lockout (because I tend to round or hitch to finish the lift), I could also suggest bringing up your hip strength, maybe by doing heavy glute bridges or generally more glute work. Another approach is to put around 90% or 95% of your deadlift on the bar on high pins, and pulling a single then lowering the pins until you notice yourself rounding. Lighten the load and work from that ROM until your are able to pull without rounding after doing your normal deadlift workout. Just a suggestion!Matt, I have trained heavy lockouts in the distant past, using heavy enough weights that callouses tearing became the limiting factor. But the real reason I quit them was the realization that I seemed unable to mimic the actual mechanics of a full deadlift lockout. When I use my normal rounded back form I get stuck just above the knees. This seems pretty standard for guys using a rounded form. At this sticking point I think lower back is the limiting factor for me.You and Rick have been nice enough to give me a lot of thoughtful advice, which I really appreciate. It makes me question all my dogmas and really think things through. So, I hate to come across as stubborn and thick headed (even though I am), but currently the small improvement I've made in back extension and all the PVC pipe rolling has me feeling better than I have in ten years. Knock on wood. Assistance exercises hitting muscle groups already hit hard by the core lifts have really never boosted my core lifts. Maybe it's a personal problem! I dunno. Lol. Really, both you guys are giving me great advice for flattening out my back and making it work. But right now after a lot of thought and some research I'm happy with my form. Key to making it work for me is avoiding max efforts and performing the bulk of my workload with a flatter back than I would use for contests. I don't know about that article. I disagree mostly as I have seen first hand the destruction that takes place in round back lifters. Sure, you can get away with it to a point, but once you push it too far, its not if its when. The spine is not designed to be bowed over with heavy weight pinching it at an angle. Hell, a neutral spine position isn't all that great for it. It only takes 1 disc to slip and your lifting career could be over forever. I must have freakishly strong spinal erectors and hips as I have no issue keeping a neutral spine and if I round, it feels uncomfortable and risky The only people I insist change their form are the people I am training. Everyone else is their own man. I don't like to see injuries, but we all know the risks. I saw a 600+ pound squatter break his back with 135...you just don't know. I also know a Div 2 wrestler who blew out a disc reaching across his kitchen table to pick up a gallon of milk. If you are comfortable with your form that is all that matters. Its your body bro, no one else's. The same can be said about my knees. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canthar Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Just to add in more thoughts. I am not a fan of round back lifting for the DL. At very high levels you see some lifters with a rounded upper back at lockout but not a round lower back. For me this does never become a consideration unless the lifter in competitive and we are talking 800+ lbs. I know that sounds extreme but the potential risks are huge and not worth it. Your DL itself as said above is really about what you're willing to do. There is an early hip rise, which changes the timing of the rest of the lift. Glute work will full hip extension also. Deads can take a toll the higher the weights go the more you typically need to work at sub max loads to maintain recovery. Assuming a non juiced lifter. Keep up the good work. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikael Siversson Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) Disc injuries come with little or no warning. There are no nerves within the disc warning you about impeding disaster, hence all these accounts of lifters slipping a disc while reaching across a table etc. Their discs were just about to penetrate the weakened fibrous sheet but the lifter has no idea because there was no pain. They would have blown the disc no matter what but it just happened to be when they picked up something very light etc. The damage was already done but they could not feel it because of said lack of nerves within the disc. This was all explained to me by someone who works with disc injuries. Edited February 22, 2015 by Mikael Siversson 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 24, 2015 Author Share Posted February 24, 2015 Thank you, guys. Mikael, very informative, but not so encouraging for someone relying on bio feedback! Two days ago: Front Barbell Raises -worked up to 61x8x2 Neck Curls 50x20x2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Mikael is right - my last blown disk (I have seven - along with having broken one vertebra - none of them lifting) came pulling out a rose bush - not lifting. I had been training stones pretty hard for a possible Scotland trip and my back was feeling very strong - right up till I blew up. Several months of life changing pain, everything I could read about and try for therapy until I got a handle on what my rehab needed to be to progress back to health. Slow and steady is my advice - I'll leave the technique stuff to Rick - who is quite good at it - he worked with my DL a few years back and changed the way I lifted to a better style. It took me a while to regain my lift numbers but now I'm pleased that I did it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 24, 2015 Author Share Posted February 24, 2015 http://robertsontrainingsystems.com/blog/round-back-deadlifts/ Mainly for personal reference, but another good link on deadlift form. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Eric I had no idea you were using bio feedback in your training. Never heard of too many powerlifters using it. I am going to lay out my basic ideas on deadlifting and leave it at that. -find a form that allows you to maximize weight and minimize injury and /or pain. -do assistance exercises for your back, hamstrings, hips, and quads. -Always push, then pull. -Avoid using a belt until you absolutely need one. Deadlifting without a belt will strengthen your abs. -maintain a neutral spine position -do tons of trap work -deadlift every 10 or so days to allow for recovery. On the other days, do something that assists in bringing up your deadlift. Could be leg work, lats, traps, lower back, hips, abs, whatever. That's about it in a nut shell. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 Sounds like a solid game plan overall, Rick. What do you mean by pushing before you pull? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 26, 2015 Author Share Posted February 26, 2015 Tried dead lifting, but felt burned out. Underhand Barbell Row 207x5x3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Walker Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Sounds like a solid game plan overall, Rick. What do you mean by pushing before you pull? The deadlift is a 2 part movement. It is initiated by a push, meaning you drive your feet into the platform as hard as you can and use your legs to get the bar off the ground and about to knee position. Once the bar crosses the knees, it becomes a pull as you extend your hips forward violently to lockout. Starting by pulling right off the bat dumps the weight forward and causes the lifter to hunch... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted February 26, 2015 Author Share Posted February 26, 2015 Gotcha, Rick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted March 1, 2015 Author Share Posted March 1, 2015 Squat 380x4x3 287x6 (beltless) Bench 269x2 263x4x2 16" Grip Bench 186x9 Curl Bar 127x5 106x13 Sit Up 35x10 35x12 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted March 3, 2015 Author Share Posted March 3, 2015 Bench 227x8x4 (minimal rest) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Eric - you've probably said it somewhere but I'm lazy so I'll ask instead of going searching. What weight are you training at and what class do you plan to compete at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 Eric - you've probably said it somewhere but I'm lazy so I'll ask instead of going searching. What weight are you training at and what class do you plan to compete at? Well, I'm currently gaining weight. Right now I'm at the 205 class, but if I can keep my body fat in check (I already have more than I like) I'd like to gain a little more weight and compete in the 231 class. I ordered a Concept 2 model D rower yesterday, in black. It should be here tomorrow. So maybe that will keep me fit, despite a too high BMI. My wife is recovering from knee surgery and suggested I go ahead and get one for the both of us. It wasn't a hard decision. I can't wait! She's not much into exercise, besides hooping and a little walking, so I'm really hoping she makes friends with the machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted March 4, 2015 Author Share Posted March 4, 2015 Deadlift 486x3 486x1 457x1 426x3 436x3x2 356x8 (beltless) Shrug 447x10x3 Rows 191x10x2 135x5 (holding reps at top for 3 sec.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted March 5, 2015 Share Posted March 5, 2015 How do you like the beltless work on the DLs? Have you noticed your core strength improve from it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted March 6, 2015 Author Share Posted March 6, 2015 How do you like the beltless work on the DLs? Have you noticed your core strength improve from it? Matt, I never have noticed any core strength improvement from beltless work over the years. Coincidentally, I read an article yesterday morning on the subject that referenced a study showing only a small improvement in oblique strength going beltless. Sounds plausible. I include them mainly for variety. Have you noticed any benefits? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoggoth Posted March 6, 2015 Share Posted March 6, 2015 Interesting topic. I never pull with a belt. Pinches too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 Interesting topic. I never pull with a belt. Pinches too much.Every once in a great while I get a nasty pinch bruise.Squat -felt a little lifeless today from pushing too hard on the rower 367x5 385x3 401x2 341x3 (beltless) 277x8 (beltless) Military Press -right pec bugging me again, so skipped bench 138x8 143x5 148x4 153x3 117x11 Sit Up 35x12 35x7(used no momentum) Curl Bar 116x8x3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted March 10, 2015 Author Share Posted March 10, 2015 Military Press (still resting pec) 117x13 127x10 143x6 148x5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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