tmmicklabs Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 This is the longest damn thread i've ever seen. Good going Bill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseedot Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Joe, I didn't intend to insinuate that a steroid user uses in anticipation of such a mishap. What I'm trying to get at here is the general notion of potential. Is a person who uses steroids fulfilling more of their potential than if s/he were to remain a non-steroid user? BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAMMERHEAD Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Yes. -HH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Sports announcers who use the term, "He always gives 110%", are insulting the player they describe. There can be no 110%- unless it is based on 1000%, and if that's the case, the athlete is hardly trying. Your natural potential can only reach 100%. Steroid use can increase matters, but steroids are not increasing your natural potential (the testosterone naturally provided in you does that) they are a step beyond nature when added artificially. This is a problem with young, impatient trainees- some do not bother with fulfilling their natural potention BEFORE taking drugs, so the line is clouded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSW Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 I myself have repped 505 for 8 reps trying to emulate one of my Iron game heroes Doug Hepburn.But whats that compared to the amounts that their doing today with their artificial help. Awesome lift Chris ! That must be one of the all time greatest drug and gear-free benches. I can see why you feel 500lb. is not that impressive. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Black Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 This is a problem with young, impatient trainees- some do not bother with fulfilling their natural potention BEFORE taking drugs, so the line is clouded. You hit the nail on the head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bseedot Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 As I thought, the answer lies in how one defines 'potential'. Darn semantics! BC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Yes, indeed: how many potential definitions are there for potential Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisJames Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 RSW, Thanks but i do feel that 500 is impressive very impressive. The Mac, Ithink it was the 1994 comp .Mark Henry was so big that he completely covered the coke machine.It was like it just appeared out of thin air when he walked out of the way of it.Serious BIG dude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisJames Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 Gazza, You ARE strong already Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted April 23, 2003 Share Posted April 23, 2003 While we are on the subject of Potential. I was even told that some people have 'more receptor sites'( a more effective and unique physiology)or some thing to that effect....which allow even more effecient gains from utilizing anabolic steroids. So yet another type of genetics! (or potential) i.e.some athletes will respond better to steroids than others!!?? yet another form of potential as it was explained??paraphrazing..athlete A.might utilize same dose as athlete B. Both weigh 200lbs. The athlete with the more efficient receptor sites(or if I'm useing the wrong terminology the guy who has the more 'unique'ability)gains 10% on the same cycle that causes the other athlete to gain 15%. Whatever..it's all cheating but those that have been around drug users-hard core gyms- have probably seen one athlete get big/huge/strong/ripped and another-also useing-has less obvious gains??? What a mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 Chris, Thanks for the reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Harlan Jacobs Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 It's everyone choice if they want to train with drugs or without. If you get beat by someone that is useing, train harder ! An excuse is like a crutch. It's for the week and the lame ! All you guys that are crying need to reach down and see if you have any. How come myself , Bob Lipinski,David H,Wade,Richard S or Mobster are not complaining about this. Why, If you loose, you loose. It don't matter how or why.And the only way to win is to train harder. Some people know this and some want everything fair. I hate to break the news to you, But life's not fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 Harlan Sorry mate,i dont agree with you If that was the case then,no one would need to juice up.also were do you think the weight lifting and power lifting records etc would be without the juice and gear.I would say more like a 600lbs bench. Heck most of the oldtime records would still stand,to me it is also an insult to the oldtimers. Just look at the SHIT that has been caused over Thomas Inch and his D/bell,dont you think that the ledgit oldtimers who have had there records beaten by cheats deserve some respect,i do Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 Harlan, How about if you get beaten by people who cheat in non drug ways? Let's take the emphasis off drugs and put it where it belongs- onto cheating. Let's say any of these could occur: -you get no rest between attempts but must immediately make your next effort until you are finished. (but you opponents can take their leisure) -after your opponent finishes with the bar, he is kind enough to grease it for your deadlifts. -unknown to you, the judge owes money to your opponent- money which will be forgiven for some 'adjusted' judging Or, all of the above. Finally, your posts have given me the sense, during these past few months, that you would stand up for yourself. If you knew the above examples were happening to you, would your response be the same as if your opponent were on drugs and you were not? There is nothing wrong with 'crying' out for an even playing field, because the true cry babies are the cheats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Cenidoza Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 It's everyone choice if they want to train with drugs or without. If you get beat by someone that is useing, train harder ! An excuse is like a crutch. It's for the week and the lame ! All you guys that are crying need to reach down and see if you have any. How come myself , Bob Lipinski,David H,Wade,Richard S or Mobster are not complaining about this. Why, If you loose, you loose. It don't matter how or why.And the only way to win is to train harder. Some people know this and some want everything fair. I hate to break the news to you, But life's not fair. To me, any kind of performance enhancing drug or supplement is a crutch. It's helping you do something you normally couldn't, just like a crutch. Could be for your mental or your physical weakness, or both. I don't think the people discussing this topic are complaining about losing, more so expressing their opinions, part of which this forum is for. As for the people not particpating, that is their choice. I chose not to comment until I read your remarks, but I think there are some things you should understand. It's not about losing, it's not about winning, it's about how you win or lose. That's what's being discussed... To answer the original question, yes, the feat would be tarnished. In all honesty, I would give it no more credit than any other performance enhanced feat. -Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mac Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 In my opinion, the examples Joe has mentioned are definitely cheating (by the other competitor) - they have an advantage you dfo not, and have gained that advantage by other means than becoming better than the lift.. I have no problem with that. I would also say that taking performance -enhancing drugs and competing in a "drug-free" competition would be classified as cheating also. However, in open competition - and as far as I know, going back to the original question, Ironmind have never required a drugs test - I see no problem with competing against users if I am drug-free. My eyes are open - I should know what I am getting myself into - if I want to compete against drug-free athlete I would choose to compete in a drug free meet - many here have done that at Powerlifting already. If I am in an open meet, I have no cause to moan about what other lifters have done to get to their level. It would be (to me) like moaning about losing a deadlift to Andy Bolton due to the fact he was a lot stronger than I am currently. I am ambivilent about equipment because I feel they enhance what your body is capable of doing and are external aids. Again I have no problem with this as long as everyone is aware that the equipment is bing used - the playing field is level. I do not see performance enhancers the same way - it is still your body performing the feats, even if you are now operating at a higher level than you would naturally. Yes, for many people, steroids ARE a crutch - they help you attain goals you could not otherwise attain. If I am deadlifting 900lbs, and 100lbs of that is attributable to roids, am I less noble than the 800lb deadlifter I would be anyway? Not in my opinion. As for being an insult to the oldtimers (notice I left out the "e"??), well, I did not realize that when we started lifting we had to sign pledges to uphold their honour - it does not work like that. Yes, I suppose that if you are Chris James training to beat Doug Hepburn lifts you should use the same type of standards (drug-free status - if Hepburn was drug-free - no equipment, etc) but otherwise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 Chris, The same mentality that will allow the use of drugs, precludes the honest admission of that fact: In other words, in a world of perfect ethics, you simply ask me if I am using, and you KNOW my answer is honest. Life is not fair as Harlan said. So competing in drug-free meets and believing everyone is in fact drug free because they say they are...we know better than that. This situation is not reversible given the players in place. So, as you both mention, you plays the games you takes your chances. But it remains to me, to be, sad, and reveals an inner mechanism which cries for victory no matter what guise it must use, because the real crying comes when such a competitor has to face his inner truth. Just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Cenidoza Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 Chris, in re: to your deadlifting example, the problem arises when you try to estimate what you could have done if you were natural. There is NO way of knowing unless you are lifetime drug free. Maybe the juice put 50lbs on your deadlift, maybe it put 500, you will never know. Question: Does a drug user have to train as hard as a natural to be as strong as the natural (all things else being equal)? No. To me, this is a disservice to all those who bust their asses in the gym! I'm not saying the user doesn't work hard, but they don't HAVE to work AS hard as the naturals. I choose to work hard and fulfill my own, natural, potential. Others can do as they please, if they're looking for recognition for their [supplemented] accomplishments, they won't be getting it from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 I will say that the more people defend and justify drug use, the more I tend to supect them of having used, or currently using them. To say that they are good for strength and size gains but do not improve grip, is like saying I use them them, but I am not cheating in the case of grip because they do nothing for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Wood Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 Mobster, this is nothing more than an inquiry and forgive me if this has been addressed elsewhere but how do you know that using steroids did not help your grip? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RSW Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 but how do you know that using steroids did not help your grip? Logic dictates that it would not dramatically enhance ones grip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 What is that logic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supersqueeze Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 An ambivalent and apathetic majority will always be ruled by a zealous minority. I'm apathetic about steroid use. Some of you seem rather pationately opposed to all forms of performance enhancement. Until you decide to REALLY ACT nothing will change. Lip service on the internet won't do it. Outlandish behavior (such as Tom of Iowa suggests and Kim Wood DOES) may be the way to start. Mike M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Steve Posted April 24, 2003 Share Posted April 24, 2003 It breaks my heart to see people juicing. There have been many time in my life where I had the chance to and choose not to. I am glad because after seeing what they did it made me proud of my decision. In college my room mate did a cycle of d ball. To get ready for the annual college bodybuilding show. Well to make a long story short at the top of the cycle he got mad at me out of the blue. It was about something stupid. He had me somewhat cornered in the room. He pick up a concrete block from under a speaker and held it over his head and was planning to hit me with it. I was stand in awe of this friend acting out like this. I started laughing out of disbelief ( No it was fear because I know I could smoke his butt at anytime). This dude was raging out of control. At some point in that Neanderthal moment he had a brain fart which changed his mind about not hitting me with the block but instead slamming it into the floor about an inch. He soon after got off and returned to normal. By the way I beat his butt in the show nice pay back." Don't make me anger! You want like me when am anger!" Bruce Banner I use to lift with a man in Durham, NC. This person was the was 6' 6'' 420# of pure steel. To see 800# drapped over his back as the bar was screaming trying not to break and yes he had broken a bar, doing reps with it. This man passed away sometime after. They did an autopsy and found years of drug abuse. This sold me for life on not doing juice and I was a 500# benchpresser for reps on juice I could have gotten 600#if not more. 30% of the lifters in my gymjice. Needles in trash cans and two dudes going into the bathroom together and there is only one pot to pee in. Somethings are just plan as day. Why do I say this? Well one of this individuals as a pinch grip that is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.