Dog Leg Side?

[iamsean11]

I’m interested. What is your utube channel?

Okay I will try and make a video on Sunday or Monday.

http://www.youtube.com/user/seanp1129?feature=watch

[iamsean11]

Well, I tried it out, and I didn't notice a difference. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't make a difference to some people. For example, I do most lifting barefoot, and I notice a difference, but I know others who have tried it and to them it made no difference. It seems negligible.

This is a fun one to analyze. When you do dead lifts barefoot, you are decreasing the gravitational potential energy, and ultimately making the lift slightly easier.

[David_wigren]

Wade is spot on. Physics actually predict that there should be a difference. Only way it wouldn't matter was if your hand applied the force straight on each handle until it closes. Unfortunately that is not true since you are bound to cause rotational torque on the handles themselves, and since the handles don't rotate that force will act on the coil, grinding the bottom of the coil into itself, and thereby making it harder.

I've tried to explain this a few times over at IM, but it seems like they only managed to take the first course of high school physics, but never managed to get to the second course of physics It's quite frustrating.

However one could argue that the difference is so minimal that it's pointless to bother about the dogleg. I can buy that argument. But to say that it's a myth or that there is absolutely no difference is just uneducated.

David, I am studying theoretical physics and applying for a phd program in physics, so I think I know what I am talking about. Not comparing all grippers, but if you isolate a single gripper, close it both ways, there will be no difference because the same forces will all be applied in both orientations, and this is made manifested by the fact that the gripper closes and contacts each others handle in the EXACT SAME SPOT every time.

This is a very elementary Newtonian physics principle, so don't make it sound like something it is not.

Sean

Read my and Wade's comment again. If you look at the gripper handle in your palm as you close the gripper, what side of the handle will be mostly covered by the surface of the palm? What does that lead to? Rotational force, and since the handle does not rotate, the force must be distributed into the coil, causing it to grind into itself. This grinding force will add a friction constant into the mix, and that constant will depend on which side you hold the gripper. And while the handle positioning does not change depending on which way you hold the gripper, the position of the coil will be slightly different and that will be enough to make a difference, admittingly a very small one.

I'm sure you know your physics very well, certainly better than a biologist as myself(biologists being recognized as the village idiots of the scientific community). But I don't think that gripper mechanics would be something theoretical physicists spend alot of time thinking about. I mean no disrespect, but with these types of problems I'd sooner trust an engineer.

[Mephistopholes]

THESIS! THESIS! THESIS!

[David_wigren]

For shits and giggles I tried to "prove" the dogleg theory by TNS closing a trainer and then measuring how far the coil spreads out with a digital caliper. If my and Wade's hypothesis would be correct regarding the spring twisting into itself causing higher friction in the coil and thus a slghtly harder close.

Unfortunately for me I did not measure any substantial difference. I did record a difference, but it was to small, well withing the differcne of me just measuring it wrong. After all trying to measure the coils width with a caliper while TNS closing it with the other hand gets a little shaky after 30-40 closes. But like I said, no significant difference.

However I did measure a significant difference comparing if you close it with your right or left hand. Don't remember my numbers, but during the left hand closes the coil was almost consistently 1mm wider than during the right hand closes. More or less proving that the gripper is harder to close for your left hand than for your right. But I think most of us already knew that, just interesting to be able to see it for yourself. You don't have to take my word for it, the coil difference is big enough for you to be able to see with your eyes. Just grab a gripper, close it with the right hand and take a mental picture of the coil, and then close it with the left and look at the coil, incredible difference.

One detail I measured with a few grippers, and that is that the coil itself seems to be placed on average about 0,5mm closer to the dogleg side. That could possibly effect at what angles the handles will have in your hand while it's closed. Maybe that's what it's about? The difference is not about any additional force on the spring, but rather that it just closes slightly different, and that some people because of individual hand anatomy will prefer one side over the other. And surely if the handles closes differently, if you keep holding all grippers with the same handle, then surely that will develop your technique and your motor skills to hold the gripper in that same handle, in effect making that side feel easier.

I don't really know, but that could explain it.

Edited August 17, 2012 by David_wigren

[Wade Gillingham]

For shits and giggles I tried to "prove" the dogleg theory by TNS closing a trainer and then measuring how far the coil spreads out with a digital caliper. If my and Wade's hypothesis would be correct regarding the spring twisting into itself causing higher friction in the coil and thus a slghtly harder close.

Unfortunately for me I did not measure any substantial difference. I did record a difference, but it was to small, well withing the differcne of me just measuring it wrong. After all trying to measure the coils width with a caliper while TNS closing it with the other hand gets a little shaky after 30-40 closes. But like I said, no significant difference.

However I did measure a significant difference comparing if you close it with your right or left hand. Don't remember my numbers, but during the left hand closes the coil was almost consistently 1mm wider than during the right hand closes. More or less proving that the gripper is harder to close for your left hand than for your right. But I think most of us already knew that, just interesting to be able to see it for yourself. You don't have to take my word for it, the coil difference is big enough for you to be able to see with your eyes. Just grab a gripper, close it with the right hand and take a mental picture of the coil, and then close it with the left and look at the coil, incredible difference.

One detail I measured with a few grippers, and that is that the coil itself seems to be placed on average about 0,5mm closer to the dogleg side. That could possibly effect at what angles the handles will have in your hand while it's closed. Maybe that's what it's about? The difference is not about any additional force on the spring, but rather that it just closes slightly different, and that some people because of individual hand anatomy will prefer one side over the other. And surely if the handles closes differently, if you keep holding all grippers with the same handle, then surely that will develop your technique and your motor skills to hold the gripper in that same handle, in effect making that side feel easier.

I don't really know, but that could explain it.

David - measuring the coil spread difference on a right or left close of a "right hand gripper" is something I have done and had been keeping in my back pocket for the next time I step into one of these threads and get jumped by someone or until I decide to write a book but I guess that's off now! If you take a "left hand gripper" and do the same test you will get the same results but for the opposite hand. The entire exercise lends proof to my theory of "secondary forces" that are not easily measured by RGC for example and are part of why a gripper that rates lower can feel harder. There are a lot of dynamics going on with closing a torsion spring gripper. This isn't a spring in a lab being closed in it's natural range of motion. Take an easy gripper RB70, Guide, Beginner, or Level 1, and play around with compressing the spring but not across the coil so the handles touch - just deflect it enough degrees that it would touch. You will see that 1) you are forcing the legs of the spring to deflect in an unatural way to get the handles together; 2) the amount of deflection depends on the width of the coil which is also dependent on the diameter of the wire; 3) the coils don't open up to a significant degree until you pull the handles together.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Wade Gillingham

[brujeria]

I keep dogleg on fingerside when working out my left hand. Feels stronger that way. Dont know if anyone else have noticed?

[Scott Styles]

You guys are cracking me up. Try the gripper both ways. Either you'll feel a difference or you won't. There's your personalized answer.

[Mephistopholes]

You guys are cracking me up. Try the gripper both ways. Either you'll feel a difference or you won't. There's your personalized answer.

That's what I'm saying dude. Haha

[climber511]

I went through a period of time quite a while back while playing with the RGC of measuring a gripper and then doing it again the other way (I've run a few grippers through mine now). More often than I expected there was a measurable difference (small but there) depending which handle was in the RGC. The best I can figure is that even handles that appear to be equally set are often not and nothing to do with the dog or other leg being held as it was seeming random as to which way. It might make more sense to close a gripper in a vise or something and look for uneven sets (by even the smallest of amounts).

[iamsean11]

For shits and giggles I tried to "prove" the dogleg theory by TNS closing a trainer and then measuring how far the coil spreads out with a digital caliper. If my and Wade's hypothesis would be correct regarding the spring twisting into itself causing higher friction in the coil and thus a slghtly harder close.

Unfortunately for me I did not measure any substantial difference. I did record a difference, but it was to small, well withing the differcne of me just measuring it wrong. After all trying to measure the coils width with a caliper while TNS closing it with the other hand gets a little shaky after 30-40 closes. But like I said, no significant difference.

However I did measure a significant difference comparing if you close it with your right or left hand. Don't remember my numbers, but during the left hand closes the coil was almost consistently 1mm wider than during the right hand closes. More or less proving that the gripper is harder to close for your left hand than for your right. But I think most of us already knew that, just interesting to be able to see it for yourself. You don't have to take my word for it, the coil difference is big enough for you to be able to see with your eyes. Just grab a gripper, close it with the right hand and take a mental picture of the coil, and then close it with the left and look at the coil, incredible difference.

One detail I measured with a few grippers, and that is that the coil itself seems to be placed on average about 0,5mm closer to the dogleg side. That could possibly effect at what angles the handles will have in your hand while it's closed. Maybe that's what it's about? The difference is not about any additional force on the spring, but rather that it just closes slightly different, and that some people because of individual hand anatomy will prefer one side over the other. And surely if the handles closes differently, if you keep holding all grippers with the same handle, then surely that will develop your technique and your motor skills to hold the gripper in that same handle, in effect making that side feel easier.

I don't really know, but that could explain it.

David, some of what you are saying will be covered in my video. I have been putting a list together of points to cover, including all the variables, etc..

I am hoping to have it done on Sunday, or Monday at the latest.

Sean

[Electron]

Looking forward to the video.

[Wade Gillingham]

You guys are cracking me up. Try the gripper both ways. Either you'll feel a difference or you won't. There's your personalized answer.

This thread has gone beyond a dogleg difference discussion. I don't think me or David feel there is a difference in a quality gripper but I will stand behind my original point in some grippers there is indeed a difference and it has to do with how far out the handle is skewed which happens to be on the dogleg side due to how the spring is wound. You can see this very clearly on most larger BB grippers and even more on cheap made in china grippers. He's pointing out something else with the coil spread on top and bind on the bottom on a right or left hand close and I'm just reinforcing what he's saying. Most people that have spent any time on torsion spring grippers vs. extension spring grippers quickly realize that they are just as strong or stronger with their left hand on an extension spring apparatus (vulcan for example) as their right hand even though their left hand lags behind their right on torsion spring grippers. There's a reason for that and it's not just in your head. Trust me, I've spent many hours analyzing how to build a quality gripper and it's not as simple as slapping on a couple handles to a hardware store spring and rating grippers isn't as simple as RGC. All that said I don't bog down my training on any of this but I've been around long enough to know what I'm talking about.

[macaz]

WORD!

[macaz]

Sean, I am looking forward to your experiments. To be true to the scientific method keep this in mind… Try hard to prove your theory WRONG! Don’t try to prove it right. If you can’t prove it wrong then the theory is sound. If you know what I mean.

[iamsean11]

if you isolate a single gripper, close it both ways, there will be no difference because the same forces will all be applied in both orientations, and this is made manifested by the fact that the gripper closes and contacts each others handle in the EXACT SAME SPOT every time.

This is a very elementary Newtonian physics principle, so don't make it sound like something it is not.

Sean

i just took a CoC sport, set to parallel (so i could parrot the exact same movement on another attempt) closed the gripper, held it shut, and marked accross from one handle to the other with a fine point sharpie, making a solid line between the two handles.

i then chalked the handles of the gripper only (not my palms) so i could use the residue chalk from the gripper in my hand as referance to put the gripper back where i started originally.

i did several closes using the same set (parallel) and utilizing the same spot in my palm, in hopes that i could verify what you have stated above.

unfortunately, the handles did NOT shut in the "exact" same spot ANYytime (in referance to the perfect line i marked between each handle on the first close).

i did each set and close with as much uniformity as possible, and could not close the gripper in the exact same spot as the original line. not even once.

btw, it was close, but no cigar.

i did this same set and close with both, dogleg in palm, and dogleg in fingers. the marks were also, noticeably farther apart when switching between the two.

(which would verify more torsion on bottom of the spring when changing dogleg facing side)

and just out of more curiousity, i did this in my left hand and noticed that the marks were closer to 6-7mm off.. (VERY cool)

this could, almost officially, verify that closing a gripper lefty is in fact harder/has slightly more resistance, than closing the exact same gripper right handed.

so in response to your comment above, you are absolutely wrong. it will NOT close in the exact same spot, ESPECIALLY when switching from dogleg-to-palm, to vice versa.

and i dont mean to take jabs, but on the (waving the education card) thing, i work as an auto tech. and im CONSTANTLY fixing what "highly educated" engineers cant get right the first time.

and on another side note, what all grippers have YOU closed?

yea. im trollin'.

Hey Tommy, I am glad you did this experiment! It is actually part of what I was planning to demonstrate. I am no where near your level, but I recently closed my elite, and have closed a number of #3s quite consistently. I used to have a profile on here with updated grip stuff, but I am becoming less interested in the forum because it is a time-suck, and I am focusing more on my arm wrestling.

One question, Tommy. What was the hardest gripper you closed the first time you picked one up?

Sean

[iamsean11]

if you isolate a single gripper, close it both ways, there will be no difference because the same forces will all be applied in both orientations, and this is made manifested by the fact that the gripper closes and contacts each others handle in the EXACT SAME SPOT every time.

This is a very elementary Newtonian physics principle, so don't make it sound like something it is not.

Sean

i just took a CoC sport, set to parallel (so i could parrot the exact same movement on another attempt) closed the gripper, held it shut, and marked accross from one handle to the other with a fine point sharpie, making a solid line between the two handles.

i then chalked the handles of the gripper only (not my palms) so i could use the residue chalk from the gripper in my hand as referance to put the gripper back where i started originally.

i did several closes using the same set (parallel) and utilizing the same spot in my palm, in hopes that i could verify what you have stated above.

unfortunately, the handles did NOT shut in the "exact" same spot ANYytime (in referance to the perfect line i marked between each handle on the first close).

i did each set and close with as much uniformity as possible, and could not close the gripper in the exact same spot as the original line. not even once.

btw, it was close, but no cigar.

i did this same set and close with both, dogleg in palm, and dogleg in fingers. the marks were also, noticeably farther apart when switching between the two.

(which would verify more torsion on bottom of the spring when changing dogleg facing side)

and just out of more curiousity, i did this in my left hand and noticed that the marks were closer to 6-7mm off.. (VERY cool)

this could, almost officially, verify that closing a gripper lefty is in fact harder/has slightly more resistance, than closing the exact same gripper right handed.

so in response to your comment above, you are absolutely wrong. it will NOT close in the exact same spot, ESPECIALLY when switching from dogleg-to-palm, to vice versa.

and i dont mean to take jabs, but on the (waving the education card) thing, i work as an auto tech. and im CONSTANTLY fixing what "highly educated" engineers cant get right the first time.

and on another side note, what all grippers have YOU closed?

yea. im trollin'.

Hey Tommy, I am glad you did this experiment! It is actually part of what I was planning to demonstrate. I am no where near your level, but I recently closed my elite, and have closed a number of #3s quite consistently. I used to have a profile on here with updated grip stuff, but I am becoming less interested in the forum because it is a time-suck, and I am focusing more on my arm wrestling.

One question, Tommy. What was the hardest gripper you closed the first time you picked one up?

Sean

i closed a #2, (first try) with a no set, last Nov. you could verify with Ironmind the first purchase i ever made from them last Nov. the order was a #2, and a #2.5.

i couldnt quite close the 2.5 right away, but did shortly after. also, one month later (after closing a #2 for the first time, i closed a #3 from parallel) at PK's house.

all grip feats ive done thus far, have been with minimal, to no training... (im lazy and dont care to obsess with training of any kind)

all that aside tho, i didnt have a clue about the dogleg stuff until recently, and never noticed a real difference until i took the time to look into it.

badass that your an armwrestler. do you pull in Texas?

That's awesome that you closed a #3 after a month. That definitely has to be in the top fastest progressions. I had a life goal of closing the elite, and i really focused on grippers with Joel (jchap) this summer, and it happened way sooner than I could have ever imagined. I am learning to take video because I suck at it, so hopefully I can get some closes on video before university resumes.

I started arm wrestling in February, and I live in Boston most of the year for school, so unfortunately, I have never made it to Texas. I would love to come down there though, because it seems like Texas has a ton of tournaments.

[iamsean11]

Sean, I am looking forward to your experiments. To be true to the scientific method keep this in mind… Try hard to prove your theory WRONG! Don’t try to prove it right. If you can’t prove it wrong then the theory is sound. If you know what I mean.

Yes, I will definitely try to get the real data, whether I am right or wrong, because it would be cool having the data and stats posted on here for the day it pops up again.

I think I will have to make multiple segments, because my list of topics is adding up...

[iamsean11]

Hey guys, I am sorry for not posting the video on time. I started it but will have to finish it another time. I am feeling a bit down because my girlfriend and I are probably splitting up and I don't think I will be on here for a while, as I need to get some shit figured out.

See ya guys.

Sean

[Chez]

Hey guys, I am sorry for not posting the video on time. I started it but will have to finish it another time. I am feeling a bit down because my girlfriend and I are probably splitting up and I don't think I will be on here for a while, as I need to get some shit figured out.

See ya guys.

Sean

I'm sorry to hear about this Sean. I wish you all the best in your training and personal life. If you ever want to vent about life, or talk training you can always call me.

[VintageWeightsPGH]

This was very helpful. I’ve been wondering the same about the dog leg side. Myth or fact. @Cannon made a great point about routine with basketball reference. 

[stranger]

@Jedd Johnson found the thread we were talking about the other day. 

[Jedd Johnson]

I know for a fact I read on this forum back in like 2003, 2004 that an engineer figured out the Dogleg in the palm would make it slightly easier to choose the Gripper. I was under the impression this was in the KTA Ebook, but no longer have it. 

[Cannon]

9 hours ago, VintageWeightsPGH said:

This was very helpful. I’ve been wondering the same about the dog leg side. Myth or fact. @Cannon made a great point about routine with basketball reference. 

It is a myth in my opinion. The origin is from a very small study that PDA published. And it took on a life of its own and was massively taken out of context. Most people who believe the dog leg matters I don’t think could quote what PDA said. They stated explicitly that it has no bearing on the final difficulty. 

I have a big write-up about this that I was going to make into a blog post but haven’t yet. If you email me at info@cannonpowerworks.com I can send you the details with references to the original PDA article. 

[dubyagrip]

I just assumed it was the intended way to hold them based on my googling when starting out and how GHP handles are machined.

Cool info.