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Oldest Man To Close The #4 Coc.


moonraker182

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Wannagrip

Wannagrip, or anyone else who can answer, I had a question that may have been answered but I can't recall/locate: Before that I'll say that despite some of my posts apparently coming across as pro Ironmind (which you could say I am...Im pro any company that I thinks delivers a good product/service including GB, GHP etc too), I believe the MM certification process is the best in terms of 1- guys using the same gripper and 2- many small increments is always nice to help climb up the ladder. It may have draw backs as the sport grows and grows, as the demand for a cert gripper may lead to long waits. But this doesn't appear to become a major problem anytime here soon.

Anyway, my main question is- what will be done in the case of a lost, or damaged MM cert gripper (Im almost surprised this hasn't happened yet with all the shipping over the years) I thought I recall something about identical grippers made as backups- but I could be thinking of another issue... (and even identical spec grippers could of course vary)

There were exact copies made at the exact same time. Literally back to back hand made by Warren. We would likely put an asterisk with an explanation and move on. I don't remember exactly but I even think Heath did some testing way back then to see with feel as well.

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Check out the axle dead lift challenge!

Me, Paul, Mobster. There's 3. - Aaron

Josh Dale and Steve McGranahan also come to mind. I wanted to say Woodall as well, but I checked the contest I was thinking about and that was a BBSE he closed. I concede that "quite a few" is ambi

It's really not that tangled: a parallel set does not define a fixed ROM across grippers.

You're right, it's not that tangled.

A parallel set does define a fixed ROM across grippers if those grippers are made to the same specs.

I don't think you want to argue that IM #4s differ significantly so that a parallel set gives you a different ROM with different #4s. Or do you?

Some popcorn?

Sure. :) I'll bring the beer.

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Randall Strossen

Bob -

Absolutely would enjoy it and most guys here might not know that Bill pays Josh and me to bicker because it boosts the traffic over here. :grin:

I knew it!!! :grin: I'm still waiting for the announcement that you and Josh are fighting in a cage match. The cage will of course be made out of Apollon's Axles stood vertically, side-by-side, looped together with Super Squats Hip Belts.

The commission we get from Bill is going to fund the pizza and beer for everyone, but that's supposed to be a secret so don't tell anyone, ok?

It's really not that tangled: a parallel set does not define a fixed ROM across grippers.

You're right, it's not that tangled.

A parallel set does define a fixed ROM across grippers if those grippers are made to the same specs.

I don't think you want to argue that IM #4s differ significantly so that a parallel set gives you a different ROM with different #4s. Or do you?

Some popcorn?

Sure. :) I'll bring the beer.

Thanks much—I think we've got a plan!

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Randall Strossen

I don't know if I've already said this, but regardless of the current age record for closing the CoC No. 4, I think it's going to get broken as soon as the top tier of current grip guys get just a notch stronger and then quite a bit older.

In other words, I think one of the guys who's flirting with being the next person to certify on the Captains of Crush No. 4 gripper might well come back to do it again in his 40s or 50s.

Unlike any other form of strength I know about, grip doesn't seem to drop off quickly above 40, 50 or even beyond.

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climber511

I don't know if I've already said this, but regardless of the current age record for closing the CoC No. 4, I think it's going to get broken as soon as the top tier of current grip guys get just a notch stronger and then quite a bit older.

In other words, I think one of the guys who's flirting with being the next person to certify on the Captains of Crush No. 4 gripper might well come back to do it again in his 40s or 50s.

Unlike any other form of strength I know about, grip doesn't seem to drop off quickly above 40, 50 or even beyond.

Randall and or anybody else - why do you think grip strength hangs on (or can even be increased) so much better as we age? I know personally that it does but don't understand why it should really? I mean those muscles and tendons are just as old as the rest of this old body - why do they act differently? And at least in my case it's not like I didn't train them when younger and I am getting some kind of "newbie" gains on previously untrained muscles.

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barbe705

Randall and or anybody else - why do you think grip strength hangs on (or can even be increased) so much better as we age? I know personally that it does but don't understand why it should really? I mean those muscles and tendons are just as old as the rest of this old body - why do they act differently? And at least in my case it's not like I didn't train them when younger and I am getting some kind of "newbie" gains on previously untrained muscles.

on a related note. any idea hwy the strength in grip seems to hang around longer than other forms? If I take a break from grip training the losses are substantially less than if I take a break from weight training.

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Grip strength may involve tendon strength to a higher degree than other weight training exercises. And if muscle mass is quite affected by hormone levels (testosterone etc.), this may not be the case with tendons - or at least to a lesser extent?

As I think of it, another explanation may be better muscle retention in the forearms as you age: i often see muscular forearms on people >60, even if they seem to have lost a lot of muscle mass in the other body parts...

Pure speculation, and certainly utter BS, but that's the only reasons i can think of atm :p

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Randall and or anybody else - why do you think grip strength hangs on (or can even be increased) so much better as we age? I know personally that it does but don't understand why it should really? I mean those muscles and tendons are just as old as the rest of this old body - why do they act differently? And at least in my case it's not like I didn't train them when younger and I am getting some kind of "newbie" gains on previously untrained muscles.

I think one of the reasons grip strength hangs on (and maybe improves) as we age better than other forms of strength is that the muscle mass involved in just grip is so small.

I don't know if this is a legitimate way of looking at things, but in my mind I've always thought of exercise as involving two types of work: the mechanical work that you're doing (e.g. cycling, running, lifting heavy things) and the metabolic/physiological work (e.g. making energy sources available to the muscles, bringing oxygen, repairing microscopic damage, replenishing energy stores, building more muscle, etc.). The mechanical work happens only while you're exercising; the metabolic/physiological happens while you're exercising and for a good time after. As we get older, it's our ability to perform the metabolic/physiological work that suffers. That's why I imagine that recovery times slowly increase, and you can't do as many sessions per week (or per day) as you used to do when you were younger (if you trained with any kind of intensity when you were younger). And when you get to the point where you can't train hard enough or frequently enough to maintain whatever level of performance in whatever exercise we're talking about, you slowly lose it.

If you take a look at this article, it seems pretty clear that we can maintain muscle mass into our 60s and 70s as long as we're training.

But

When we're younger, we can handle the metabolic cost required to train hard enough to maintain pretty much everything. When we're older, we can't train with the same intensity and/or volume, so we can either lose a little bit of everything, or lose a lot in the areas that don't actively maintain (like the arms in the triathletes studied).

So if training the muscles involved in grip have a much lower metabolic cost than training larger muscle groups, it's easier to do the work needed to maintain or improve grip strength. I don't think it has anything to do with tendon strength -- if anything, our tendons tend to get stronger and tougher as we age because of years of microscopic stresses/damage with years of laying down new connective tissue to repair it. Veal anyone?

on a related note. any idea hwy the strength in grip seems to hang around longer than other forms? If I take a break from grip training the losses are substantially less than if I take a break from weight training.

I think the answer to this is also related to Chris' question. We use our hands every day, often in ways that are similar to how we train grip. And even if that everyday use isn't exactly like grip training, it's still a lot closer than some of the movements we do for other kinds of strength. So even when we aren't doing grip specific training, we are still using our muscles and "training" them every day. And if you've developed a slightly improved level of grip strength from your training, you are also more likely to be doing things at a slightly higher intensity in the everyday use of your hands.

If you can close a #2, the next time you are tightening a stubborn screw there's a good chance that you will be squeezing the handle a bit harder than when you could only close a #1. If you're cutting wire, there's a good chance you're giving a harder squeeze. Maybe when you're carrying your tool box, it takes you longer before you feel the need to switch hands. Or maybe you're just more likely to try carrying something with one hand instead of two. Once you've got a certain level of strength, it's easier to maintain it. And you've got lots of opportunities with just everyday living to do something to maintain it.

Compare grip training to a move like the bench press -- in the course of a normal day, how often are you generating enough force with your pecs and triceps to maintain the strength you need for your 1RM bench? I'm guessing never. Sure, we might squat a bunch, but the intensity of a bodyweight squat to pick up a dropped quarter is nowhere near close to what an intermediate (or higher) level squatter would do in training.

But I'm betting it's more likely that we have everyday opportunities to inadvertently/unintentionally use our grip strength at a reasonably high intensity. My father-in-law may not have the leg strength to go very far without his walker, but you should see the death grip he has on the walker when he's going.

Of course, I'm just making this up as I go along :)

Edited by bdckr
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Aaron Jacobs

You guys talk about tendon strength and muscles regarding grip strength but forget that neural factors play a role, too. Why do you think top tier Olympic weightlifters are in their prime in their 20's? Why can't these guys keep their strength with the quick lifts into their 40's and beyond? It has nothing to do with muscle mass, which remains fairly constant from the 20's until one is around 50.

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Aaron, I think you may have a good point when you say that neural factors play a big role.

Regarding tendon strength, why do you think it shouldn't play a role?

As for muscle mass - and from what i've read many times - it does decline with age, starting at ~40. And the decline speeds up at ~50.

Of course this is only true for men that rely on their own production of hormones to build muscles...

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Randall Strossen

Wannagrip, or anyone else who can answer, I had a question that may have been answered but I can't recall/locate: Before that I'll say that despite some of my posts apparently coming across as pro Ironmind (which you could say I am...Im pro any company that I thinks delivers a good product/service including GB, GHP etc too), I believe the MM certification process is the best in terms of 1- guys using the same gripper and 2- many small increments is always nice to help climb up the ladder. It may have draw backs as the sport grows and grows, as the demand for a cert gripper may lead to long waits. But this doesn't appear to become a major problem anytime here soon.

Anyway, my main question is- what will be done in the case of a lost, or damaged MM cert gripper (Im almost surprised this hasn't happened yet with all the shipping over the years) I thought I recall something about identical grippers made as backups- but I could be thinking of another issue... (and even identical spec grippers could of course vary)

There were exact copies made at the exact same time. Literally back to back hand made by Warren. We would likely put an asterisk with an explanation and move on. I don't remember exactly but I even think Heath did some testing way back then to see with feel as well.

Not to stir up a hornet's nest :) but I was biting my tongue not to say this: if one could make a single gripper to spec, in principle one could make an infinite number of grippers to the same specs, and without my raising this point, you can see that an example of this process has been presented by Bill, who you would normally expect to say the MM grippers were wholly unique and could never be replicated or substituted.

So, now you see why I would say that the idea of requiring the use of a specific gripper might not be necessary to maintain uniformity for certification and even has reasons weighing against it. My argument remains that if you can close any CoC No. 3 you grab from our inventory, you will be able to close all of them because that's how uniform they are.

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Randall Strossen

Randall and or anybody else - why do you think grip strength hangs on (or can even be increased) so much better as we age? I know personally that it does but don't understand why it should really? I mean those muscles and tendons are just as old as the rest of this old body - why do they act differently? And at least in my case it's not like I didn't train them when younger and I am getting some kind of "newbie" gains on previously untrained muscles.

I think one of the reasons grip strength hangs on (and maybe improves) as we age better than other forms of strength is that the muscle mass involved in just grip is so small.

I don't know if this is a legitimate way of looking at things, but in my mind I've always thought of exercise as involving two types of work: the mechanical work that you're doing (e.g. cycling, running, lifting heavy things) and the metabolic/physiological work (e.g. making energy sources available to the muscles, bringing oxygen, repairing microscopic damage, replenishing energy stores, building more muscle, etc.). The mechanical work happens only while you're exercising; the metabolic/physiological happens while you're exercising and for a good time after. As we get older, it's our ability to perform the metabolic/physiological work that suffers. That's why I imagine that recovery times slowly increase, and you can't do as many sessions per week (or per day) as you used to do when you were younger (if you trained with any kind of intensity when you were younger). And when you get to the point where you can't train hard enough or frequently enough to maintain whatever level of performance in whatever exercise we're talking about, you slowly lose it.

If you take a look at this article, it seems pretty clear that we can maintain muscle mass into our 60s and 70s as long as we're training.

But

When we're younger, we can handle the metabolic cost required to train hard enough to maintain pretty much everything. When we're older, we can't train with the same intensity and/or volume, so we can either lose a little bit of everything, or lose a lot in the areas that don't actively maintain (like the arms in the triathletes studied).

So if training the muscles involved in grip have a much lower metabolic cost than training larger muscle groups, it's easier to do the work needed to maintain or improve grip strength. I don't think it has anything to do with tendon strength -- if anything, our tendons tend to get stronger and tougher as we age because of years of microscopic stresses/damage with years of laying down new connective tissue to repair it. Veal anyone?

on a related note. any idea hwy the strength in grip seems to hang around longer than other forms? If I take a break from grip training the losses are substantially less than if I take a break from weight training.

I think the answer to this is also related to Chris' question. We use our hands every day, often in ways that are similar to how we train grip. And even if that everyday use isn't exactly like grip training, it's still a lot closer than some of the movements we do for other kinds of strength. So even when we aren't doing grip specific training, we are still using our muscles and "training" them every day. And if you've developed a slightly improved level of grip strength from your training, you are also more likely to be doing things at a slightly higher intensity in the everyday use of your hands.

If you can close a #2, the next time you are tightening a stubborn screw there's a good chance that you will be squeezing the handle a bit harder than when you could only close a #1. If you're cutting wire, there's a good chance you're giving a harder squeeze. Maybe when you're carrying your tool box, it takes you longer before you feel the need to switch hands. Or maybe you're just more likely to try carrying something with one hand instead of two. Once you've got a certain level of strength, it's easier to maintain it. And you've got lots of opportunities with just everyday living to do something to maintain it.

Compare grip training to a move like the bench press -- in the course of a normal day, how often are you generating enough force with your pecs and triceps to maintain the strength you need for your 1RM bench? I'm guessing never. Sure, we might squat a bunch, but the intensity of a bodyweight squat to pick up a dropped quarter is nowhere near close to what an intermediate (or higher) level squatter would do in training.

But I'm betting it's more likely that we have everyday opportunities to inadvertently/unintentionally use our grip strength at a reasonably high intensity. My father-in-law may not have the leg strength to go very far without his walker, but you should see the death grip he has on the walker when he's going.

Of course, I'm just making this up as I go along :)

I think the small muscle mass involved might be the key, too—those studies about maintaining muscle as age advances are the type of thing I read for motivation, but I know the truth: at 40 you can kind of still fake it, at 50 you realize you're fighting the decline and at 60 you wonder why you still have so many 25-kg plates!

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In regard to the loss and gain of tendon and ligament strength being slower; I think that it is due to tendons and ligaments being different than large muscle groups. By a simple physiological inquiry one would find they are totally different from muscles, and should be regarded as such in the application of strength building. You can't pack tons of new muscle cells onto a ligament or tendon. We're talking about building and losing strength in a tissue that is composed of different material, and therefore must have different physical, and behavioral characteristics. It's like saying a sailing rope is the sail itself. By their taking much longer to build and lose, and having a much smaller maximum strength ceiling, they show that they are different than muscle. Hence the 70 year old men still crushing apples with arms that have significantly less muscle mass than that of an average man of middle age, but connective tissues that are much stronger. This makes me want to research more. :D

Edited by Idiedintothe
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