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Electron

Noob Race To C.o.c. 2.5!

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hellswindstaff

My BW floats between 175lbs-185lbs and I'm just greasing the groove for the 1AC... 5-10 singles per day. My 1RM is between 1ft to 1.5ft down the towel with the assisting arm.

Regarding the negatives, Are you training to lower yourself or raise yourself with one arm?

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Electron

My bodyweight is 135, so I can keep myself in the up position easily, probably in the middle and near-low positions too.

For the negatives, I don't see it as a way to train the descent. I do think that people capable of a 1APU are also good at controlling said descent though.

I think fighting gravity as much as possible will make me stronger going up as well.

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hellswindstaff

Do what you want but, Ive read it numerous times over that eccentric only motions do not help with concentric motions and only teach you to slow down.

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Electron

Thanks for the advice, we'll see how it goes.

What are your thoughts on gripper negatives? I think many gripsters have come a long way thanks to them

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hellswindstaff

"Mike Bridges experimented with eccentric bench pressing. He told me that the only result he got from eccentrics was a pec injury."

"Vince Anello also experimented with eccentric work, doing eccentric deadlifts with as much as 880. When he returned to conventional deadlifts, to his dismay his deadlift had decreased. Vince told me that anything will make your deadlift go up--except eccentrics."

-Optimal Eccentrics by Louie Simmons

I have personally done slow eccentrics on a gravitron machine in hopes of getting me closer to a one arm chin, when I returned 6 weeks later, not only did my biceps and shoulders feel worn down, but the weight assisting me showed know improvement. So I thought to myself... "okay I'm just under-recovered" and came back around a few weeks later after a short lay-off... still no improvement, I was still at the exact same assistance months from beginning so the only PR that I gained was a PR for lost time.

I'm not saying that eccentrics are a waste or should they should be circumvented at all costs, but I am saying that for maximal strength, eccentric only training is a waste. Stretch reflex, thus elasticity, is stored in the soft tissue making one faster via the speed of the concentric and eccentric movements... think about this, if you are doing a slow eccentric, something which beats up soft tissue, and that movement isn't followed by a movement requiring elasticity then wouldn't that create rigid soft tissue through scar tissue build up? In turn, causing you to slow down.

I am far from the strongest person on the board... but I am definitely well read. I have been fanatically studying strength, in all forms, for about 3 years now.

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bubba29
"Mike Bridges experimented with eccentric bench pressing. He told me that the only result he got from eccentrics was a pec injury." "Vince Anello also experimented with eccentric work, doing eccentric deadlifts with as much as 880. When he returned to conventional deadlifts, to his dismay his deadlift had decreased. Vince told me that anything will make your deadlift go up--except eccentrics." -Optimal Eccentrics by Louie Simmons I have personally done slow eccentrics on a gravitron machine in hopes of getting me closer to a one arm chin, when I returned 6 weeks later, not only did my biceps and shoulders feel worn down, but the weight assisting me showed know improvement. So I thought to myself... "okay I'm just under-recovered" and came back around a few weeks later after a short lay-off... still no improvement, I was still at the exact same assistance months from beginning so the only PR that I gained was a PR for lost time. I'm not saying that eccentrics are a waste or should they should be circumvented at all costs, but I am saying that for maximal strength, eccentric only training is a waste. Stretch reflex, thus elasticity, is stored in the soft tissue making one faster via the speed of the concentric and eccentric movements... think about this, if you are doing a slow eccentric, something which beats up soft tissue, and that movement isn't followed by a movement requiring elasticity then wouldn't that create rigid soft tissue through scar tissue build up? In turn, causing you to slow down. I am far from the strongest person on the board... but I am definitely well read. I have been fanatically studying strength, in all forms, for about 3 years now.

working negative deadlifts is about the stupidest thing i have ever heard

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hellswindstaff

Aside from injury to the low back... what physiologically makes it the stupiest thing ever? Then why do people use them on grippers? Finally, What is the difference?

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bubba29
Aside from injury to the low back... what physiologically makes it the stupiest thing ever? Then why do people use them on grippers? Finally, What is the difference?

stupid for injury risk. i would say the difference is the compromising position the body is in when at the top of the deadlift. putting close to or above max weight in your hands and fighting it on the way down would be very bad on the back imo. doing heavy negatives on grippers does not seem to put the hand into a position where it would be dangerous.

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hellswindstaff

Assuming form isn't compromised, the eccentric is the same movement pattern as the concentric only in the reverse... there is no difference except tissue is lengthen under tension. So again, what is the difference?

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bubba29
Assuming form isn't compromised, the eccentric is the same movement pattern as the concentric only in the reverse... there is no difference except tissue is lengthen under tension. So again, what is the difference?

time under tension and heavy weight will cause form to be compromised. how would you do a heavy negative deadlift without scraping it down your legs? a bar brushing up the legs with the upward movement is different that it rubbing down the legs in a negative. the way to avoid this would be to get the weight out over the feet. this would be a very bad position for the back. i will let you do the negative deadlifts. please report back on your progress. personally i think it's a very bad idea

Edited by bubba29

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hellswindstaff

I think that you're missing the point of my post. I'm almost positive that you didn't read past the second sentence.

Edited by hellswindstaff

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Electron

You and I have the love of reading in common. But as a layman to strength data, I couldn't make much sense when I read the original source you quoted. lol

I'm going to have to try the negatives for 1APU too, maybe then I'll understand what you already seem to.

One thing I got from the article though, is that if I combine the lowering movement with a heavy pull up straight after, it may be to some benefit.

Maybe I'll experiment with a few kinds of different reps.

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hellswindstaff

Alright man... let me know how it when after you've done them.

I feel like we are at roughly the same strength level with the one arm pull up... but you are farther along with the actual movement because of our weight difference.

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Electron

I feel like you may be a little stronger overall, and I'm stronger in relation to bodyweight.

What I really wish for is for us both to be able to do 1APUs before the end of the year, maybe even before summer!

Edited by TentacleGrip

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hellswindstaff

I have about 2.5-3 months before I reach the bottom of the towel... I'm hoping that I'll be able to do one then... but I dont know... we'll have to see.

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hellswindstaff

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Electron

I just tried out the second assisted method that guy mentioned, I can do a rep while bracing against my deltoid.

What's the purpose of the spinning movement while going up?

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hellswindstaff

About the spinning movement, it's hard to hear so you would need to turn up the volume but he says "So you dont hurt your shoulder socket." I guess it's more biomechanically stable for the shoulder.

Maybe the next step from pushing on the deltoid could be grabbing and pulling from just below the armpit? I dunno, I'm not that far along yet.

Maybe you could blend the finger assistance and arm assistance by instead of pushing with the palm of your arm, use fingers and using fewer and fewer fingers as you progress. When you're down to two fingers pushing against your deltoid there is no way that there could be that much assistance unless you have some straight ignorant fingertip strength. I dunno just throwing out ideas.

Oh also... are you using the valsalva maneuver?

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hellswindstaff

Btw... hit a 10lbs PR on my Secret Weapon yesterday. 80lbs set to parallel... its a GSS model so I've heard that the leverage ratio is 1.5x-2.0x resistance of the weight on the machine... not 100% sure about that though.

Today picked up my 2.5 Cold Turkey and got it to roughly .25 in from handles touching with my non-closing hand's thumb helping to hold the dog leg in place.

That's a 1/4in improvement from last week

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hellswindstaff

Went for a second single with the right hand... closed it with slight assistance from the opposing hand. Assistance was done by holding the dog leg in place and on the actual close itself... but my perceived assistance with the close was not that much.

Went for the left hand... still about an inch off. I PRed yesterday on the Secret Weapon with both hands at 80lbs so I'm assuming that it's flawed technique on the left. I will post a video maybe next week.

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hellswindstaff

Note: The second attempt with my left hand was unassisted/

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Electron

About the spinning movement, it's hard to hear so you would need to turn up the volume but he says "So you dont hurt your shoulder socket." I guess it's more biomechanically stable for the shoulder.

Maybe the next step from pushing on the deltoid could be grabbing and pulling from just below the armpit? I dunno, I'm not that far along yet.

Maybe you could blend the finger assistance and arm assistance by instead of pushing with the palm of your arm, use fingers and using fewer and fewer fingers as you progress. When you're down to two fingers pushing against your deltoid there is no way that there could be that much assistance unless you have some straight ignorant fingertip strength. I dunno just throwing out ideas.

Oh also... are you using the valsalva maneuver?

What's a valsalva maneuver and what is it for?

I just tried using 2 fingers to push my shoulder down, and I went a little bit higher than half way.

I'm also thinking about hanging a rope or chain down from the bar and using it like the towel, but letting it hang lower so it can help less and less as my hand goes down.

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Electron

Btw... hit a 10lbs PR on my Secret Weapon yesterday. 80lbs set to parallel... its a GSS model so I've heard that the leverage ratio is 1.5x-2.0x resistance of the weight on the machine... not 100% sure about that though.

Today picked up my 2.5 Cold Turkey and got it to roughly .25 in from handles touching with my non-closing hand's thumb helping to hold the dog leg in place.

That's a 1/4in improvement from last week

The Secret Weapon was made for doing heavy negatives, but should I assume that you use it like a normal gripper+assist?

That's great progress on the 2.5, the last bit is going to be hard. Good luck on the close, brother.

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hellswindstaff

Valsava maneuver has many names and variations; valsava maneuver, pressurized breathing, the packing breath, power breathing... but basically it is pressurizing your breath when stomach breathing... if you pressurize while chest breathing then you the pressure will go to your head which is dangerous. Pavel wrote about it in Power to the People and gave a good method for teaching it, but he called it power breathing and said that it can boost your power by up to 20%. There are a couple of other things that you should know before just sending the breath downwards, but that's the basics... PM me and I'll explain it.

If you're only half way with two fingers why not try three or four? That's pretty good man... You are super close to getting this thing, I'm positive that you'll get it before the end of summer if not before the end of spring.

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hellswindstaff

The Secret Weapon was originally designed for severe negatives but I'm just using it for the concentric portion of the close at a parallel close. Eventually Ill be at the point that if I can set it then I can close it.

I'm debating whether I should just drop all other grip movements and just work towards the 2.5 while rotating exercises every 1-3 weeks.

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