Cannon Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Here is my goal for this thread: I would like to collect some feedback from the experienced competitors who have excelled at this lift. I am particularly interested in whatever you feel you can describe about the connection between your hands and the implement. For example, where do you feel the most pressure? Are your thumbs curled or straight during the lift? Where do your fingers land? Why do you position your hands where you put them? Where do you put them? Where are the plate edges during the lift? What is it about your hand position that you feel gives the advantage over another width? I'm on a quest to better understand the mechanics of this lift and, so far, I have not been able to make sense of my experiments with different widths. Thanks for any feedback! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I could tell you but then I'd have to kill you. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 Well Chris, you've definitely given me the most complete and useful information on the subject. Also the advice that maybe a certain width doesn't "feel" the best, but more weight will come off the floor and that's the goal. That's where I'm at with 58mm. I consistently lift more weight at 58mm, but this makes no sense to me based on anything I can analyze or measure. Thumb tears all over the place even at lightish weights, etc. Is one millimeter a huge deal? Is it possible that all I need to do is find a way to get to 57mm? 53mm wasn't great, but maybe 54mm is ideal, and 55mm would be too wide..? These are some of the experiments I'm doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 Here's another example. At 48mm, the recruitment from my forearm flexors is insane. VERY taxing to the point of being uncomfortable. What I don't understand is if possibly I'm underdeveloped in those muscles and with proper attention this recruitment is desireable to lift more weight; or is that discomfort a sign that this is a bad width...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbe705 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 matt, read your blog. here's something else to think about. a lot of guys change the width they use over time. especially if you use 2x45 and then get a device. you may pinch wider at the beginning since it's closer to the width you were training on rather than "what's ideal." I don't know how long you've been using a 2hp or what you used before but, I think you picked up the plates when the rest of us did. I think that might be part of the reason my pinch didn't do what I wanted at andrews, my width has gotten smaller as I've trained on a euro but, I haven't made that adjustment in my comp width. I'm going to spend some time testing it at some point soon, I'll let you know what happens. it would be interesting though. there were a couple of guys who got euro's at about the same time. I know that when I switched to that from my plates my numbers dropped. it would be interesting to see if there was a net drop in poundage with guys who switched over in that group purchase. what I think we might see is that guys have to adjust comp widths down as they get used to the "proper" width. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbe705 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 oddly enough, having said all that about 58mm does seem to be what I should used based on the horne initial width measurement. could try knocking off a mm or so and see what happens. chris has said, and I can back up, the smallest changes will make the biggest difference. I can go from 60-65mm with almost no difference. 60-58mm big changes in the weight I pull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Well Chris, you've definitely given me the most complete and useful information on the subject. Also the advice that maybe a certain width doesn't "feel" the best, but more weight will come off the floor and that's the goal. That's where I'm at with 58mm. I consistently lift more weight at 58mm, but this makes no sense to me based on anything I can analyze or measure. Thumb tears all over the place even at lightish weights, etc. Is one millimeter a huge deal? Is it possible that all I need to do is find a way to get to 57mm? 53mm wasn't great, but maybe 54mm is ideal, and 55mm would be too wide..? These are some of the experiments I'm doing. Experimenting with widths that will not be available to you in a contest seems like a waste of valuable time. For training purposes - round over the edges of your plates - and I mean rounded and smoothed. You cannot train enough to get better if you are always torn up. And despite any amount of "science" or what seems correct - the bottom line is how much weight comes up. As Franco Columbo said - "If it works, it works - no matter what anyone says!" My two cents - round over the edges of your plates - keep experimenting - and go with what works - period. Forget the "why" and go with it for a while. What has happened to me in the past and may be happening to you is that your strengths and weaknesses are changing - and what used to be best for you is no longer so. Kind of like what Brent is saying above. Edited February 16, 2012 by climber511 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbe705 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 good point. I used an angle grinder to give my euro softer edges. did you ever smooth them up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 Good points Brent. In general my max has increased dramatically since getting a Euro, and I did get mine through that organized group order. I was at about 160# on my 2x35s and hit PRs of 168, 172, and 178# in the following months after training on the Euro. Those 2x35s are about 58mm however! So this jives with your observation that people will go wider because they're used to using plates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 Experimenting with widths that will not be available to you in a contest seems like a waste of valuable time. For training purposes - round over the edges of your plates - and I mean rounded and smoothed. You cannot train enough to get better if you are always torn up. And despite any amount of "science" or what seems correct - the bottom line is how much weight comes up. As Franco Columbo said - "If it works, it works - no matter what anyone says!" My two cents - round over the edges of your plates - keep experimenting - and go with what works - period. Forget the "why" and go with it for a while. What has happened to me in the past and may be happening to you is that your strengths and weaknesses are changing - and what used to be best for you is no longer so. Kind of like what Brent is saying above. Thank you for this, Chris. I did recently round the edges on my plates considerably more than they were. They are pretty smooth and friendly now. You make a good point about "go with it for a while". That's kind of what brought me to all this. I've spent about a year primarily training and competiting at 58mm "just because." Excellent point about choosing a width that I can have in a contest. I need to investigate the 50-56 widths more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Way back when I used 54mm - then 48 - now 50 - but when Nick visits - we use 58mm because that's his width and I do about as well as my own 50mm. I seem to be moving towards a little more width now. I have no idea why. I grabbed Andrews last attempt at 240# @ 54 and picked it a ccouple inches off the floor with no warmups or anything - heck I don't have a clue anymore either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 Way back when I used 54mm - then 48 - now 50 - but when Nick visits - we use 58mm because that's his width and I do about as well as my own 50mm. I seem to be moving towards a little more width now. I have no idea why. I grabbed Andrews last attempt at 240# @ 54 and picked it a ccouple inches off the floor with no warmups or anything - heck I don't have a clue anymore either. I noticed something like this recently too. I experimented with a crazy wide setting of 64mm. I performed almost as well as 58mm. Doesn't make sense to me. So for you guys pinching at 48-52mm, where do the plates hit your fingers during the lift? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbe705 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I know if I go too thin I feel a lot of stress through my hand. feels bad, like something is close to breaking. mostly in my fingers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 At my favored width of 50mm - I feel pressure fairly evenly all over the entire surface of my fingers and thumbs. Narrower the joints of my fingers hurt a lot and I get no help from my "palm" - wider and I don't feel the pressure as evenly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted February 16, 2012 Author Share Posted February 16, 2012 At my favored width of 50mm - I feel pressure fairly evenly all over the entire surface of my fingers and thumbs. Narrower the joints of my fingers hurt a lot and I get no help from my "palm" - wider and I don't feel the pressure as evenly. I know if I go too thin I feel a lot of stress through my hand. feels bad, like something is close to breaking. mostly in my fingers Thanks guys. This helps me confirm that the discomfort I get with the really narrow widths is just bad news, and not something I could turn into a positive if properly trained. This was one of my HUGE questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbe705 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 bump. I'll try to video my next pinch session and see what's up. I think that the bent elbow position is stronger, feels like it anyway. I don't know if my lats are strong enough to manage that tuck for as long as the pull takes. more pullups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamTGlass Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 At my favored width of 50mm - I feel pressure fairly evenly all over the entire surface of my fingers and thumbs. Narrower the joints of my fingers hurt a lot and I get no help from my "palm" - wider and I don't feel the pressure as evenly. I know if I go too thin I feel a lot of stress through my hand. feels bad, like something is close to breaking. mostly in my fingers Thanks guys. This helps me confirm that the discomfort I get with the really narrow widths is just bad news, and not something I could turn into a positive if properly trained. This was one of my HUGE questions. My best pulls have always been with zero sensation, zero awareness of anything other than the bar meeting the standard. I'm talking about the zone. IMO training for sensation on a performance based sporting event is a step backwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbe705 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 My best pulls have always been with zero sensation, zero awareness of anything other than the bar meeting the standard. I'm talking about the zone. IMO training for sensation on a performance based sporting event is a step backwards. are you saying that weight moved should be the only consideration? I think you are but, I'm not 100%. are you talking about training,comp lifts, both, neither? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
climber511 Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 My competition lifts are that way - or at least the better ones are. During the learning phase for correct width - hand position, arm, back, etc I made a conscious effort to feel what was happening during each part of the lift. Only after learning what I needed to be doing physically did I work on the mental side of the lift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamTGlass Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 My best pulls have always been with zero sensation, zero awareness of anything other than the bar meeting the standard. I'm talking about the zone. IMO training for sensation on a performance based sporting event is a step backwards. are you saying that weight moved should be the only consideration? I think you are but, I'm not 100%. are you talking about training,comp lifts, both, neither? I would say both- some people would talk about this in terms of "External Focus" and "internal focus" One is looking at how something is feeling or what is happening in the athletes head/body the other is based on objective or outcome. I can find some studies to link back if you want to read them- a University used force plates to measure squatting speed. At one station the lifters were asked "Stand up" and at the other they were given three cues all centered on sensation. Every single time in every single athlete bar speed and foot pressure were diminished by the group focused on things other than the desired outcome of standing up. When you are pinching (at competition) your objective to is to meet the standard (while not dropping it) and set it down. Things that could cross your mind are...too many to list. Brent you have done a lot of competitions in a few sports, draw from your experience. When did you do better- when you had no thoughts/ or just thoughts on objective, OR when you were thinking about what hurts/whats tired, How is the competition doing, is your body set up right, are you breathing right...on and on. I think if you reflect on it, you would recall your best performances come when you are focused on getting the job done, or not thinking/feeling anything. I bring all this up to tie back to Matt's first question- in training what is better? I believe it is better to start with the end in mind, and train the way you want to play. I also believe those who try this will find more successful pulls in their immediate future. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 I totally agree with you adam. I guess I'm talking about proper execution. As an example, you'll perform better on grippers in a contest if you take the time in training to learn a proper set. These are the questions I'm asking about 2HP. I am basically "no setting" the thing and hoping for good numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamTGlass Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I totally agree with you adam. I guess I'm talking about proper execution. As an example, you'll perform better on grippers in a contest if you take the time in training to learn a proper set. These are the questions I'm asking about 2HP. I am basically "no setting" the thing and hoping for good numbers. Oh yeah the actual mechanical position? I'll go It with you Saturday, there is something I showed you before which may have slipped your memory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shoggoth Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Mushin no shin (null) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbe705 Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 adam I understand what you're saying and agree. but, I do think there has to be an active thought process in the beginning. ie, you have to learn how to pinch before you can forget how to pinch. working out the proper mechanics and process is what we're trying to do. in othe words we're trying to figure out and then practice the perfect set up so that we don't have to think about setting up at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cannon Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 I totally agree with you adam. I guess I'm talking about proper execution. As an example, you'll perform better on grippers in a contest if you take the time in training to learn a proper set. These are the questions I'm asking about 2HP. I am basically "no setting" the thing and hoping for good numbers. Oh yeah the actual mechanical position? I'll go It with you Saturday, there is something I showed you before which may have slipped your memory. I remember that (I actually have it on video). That arm position is one of the things I've been working on. Yeah, see you Saturday. Can't wait for the Frostbite challenge! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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