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0.5 minimum for WR lifts, discussion


Mikael Siversson
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Here's the best reason for the rule I can provide: even calibrated powerlifting or olympic plates, which you pay a high premium for, are not guaranteed to be exact weights. Ivanko, for example, states their calibrated plates are within 10 grams of face value. If we allowed records to be broken by very small amounts there is a good chance you would have guys breaking world records with a weight that's actually slightly less than the world record. We can all agree this would be bad. The IPF and USAPL have minimum weights for breaking world and national records. Also, if grip was to one day require calibrated kilo plates, as do other international strength sports, it's important to note the smallest incremental jump is 0.5 kilos, as made available by a pair of 0.25 kilo plates

Now this is an interesting thought and makes the strongest case for .5kg but it doesn't address the problem we'll get into with a list and a WR.

1. WR is 125kg

2. Lifter A pulls 125.4

3. He didn't break the WR, however are you really going to rank him #2 when he has a higher total than the current #1?

4. Are you going to say his lift is "invalid" because he didn't go up the full .5kg and mark that as a miss for the contest and not include it in the rankings?

I don't see any way to fix this other than have the list present at all contests and have the lifter call for .5kg above whatever spot they're targeting. We can't continue to allow sub-.5kg jumps on 2-50 but then decide the #1 spot needs a .5kg bump. If we do, we'll eventually get into a WR that is not ranked #1 as well as the fun question of how you score someone that day during the contest that does an "invalid" lift because he didn't break the record by .5 but was otherwise legal.

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Here's the best reason for the rule I can provide: even calibrated powerlifting or olympic plates, which you pay a high premium for, are not guaranteed to be exact weights. Ivanko, for example, states their calibrated plates are within 10 grams of face value. If we allowed records to be broken by very small amounts there is a good chance you would have guys breaking world records with a weight that's actually slightly less than the world record. We can all agree this would be bad. The IPF and USAPL have minimum weights for breaking world and national records. Also, if grip was to one day require calibrated kilo plates, as do other international strength sports, it's important to note the smallest incremental jump is 0.5 kilos, as made available by a pair of 0.25 kilo plates

Now this is an interesting thought and makes the strongest case for .5kg but it doesn't address the problem we'll get into with a list and a WR.

1. WR is 125kg

2. Lifter A pulls 125.4

3. He didn't break the WR, however are you really going to rank him #2 when he has a higher total than the current #1?

4. Are you going to say his lift is "invalid" because he didn't go up the full .5kg and mark that as a miss for the contest and not include it in the rankings?

I don't see any way to fix this other than have the list present at all contests and have the lifter call for .5kg above whatever spot they're targeting. We can't continue to allow sub-.5kg jumps on 2-50 but then decide the #1 spot needs a .5kg bump. If we do, we'll eventually get into a WR that is not ranked #1 as well as the fun question of how you score someone that day during the contest that does an "invalid" lift because he didn't break the record by .5 but was otherwise legal.

Josh I have always had the Top 50 list present at every Gripmas - and with Jedd there - it has gotten a lot of use. If you know the record - then follow the rules and load the bar correctly - there should be no problems. The list has often been used for someone to advance their placement on the list as well - how can you run a contest without this and think you did it well? As the sport becomes more professionally managed I don't see why this should happen.

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Only thing that is for sure is that a "can of worms" has been opened.

I can see this turning into a hair splitting contest or having to purchase scales that

weigh to a millionth of an ounce.

A heavier lift is a heavier lift no matter how one slices it BUT it ultimately depends upon

how accurate one wants to be with the weight under consideration.

It appears that the decision to made is to what degree of accuracy will be used. Not the

smallest increment used.

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No, I don't think this will be that big of a problem. Rules have been established for this in other organizations, and they will be easy to follow. I will back the recommendations of the Grip Collective and hope everyone else does.

It does not mean I will not ask questions, some topic here are things that should be addressed.

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I think the rule is good but I also think that we need to have a plan B when (not if because it will happen sooner or later) an organiser makes a mistake. I think it is best if the lift is simply disqualified as it broke a specific rule. A bit like permitting a fifth lift in a contest.

Edited by Mikael Siversson
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I think the rule is good but I also think that we need to have a plan B when (not if because it will happen sooner or later) an organiser makes a mistake. I think it is best if the lift is simply disqualified as it broke a specific rule. A bit like permitting a fifth lift in a contest.

Lifting <0.5 over the WR wouldn't be breaking a rule...? I don't get all the talk about invalidating the lift entirely.

Per Climber's comment about having the list handy, I've never been to a contest where people weren't looking things up. I've made lists in advance for myself so that I could target certain weights "just in case."

Aaron's comment about stacking tolerance makes a lot of sense too. I also liked his clarification that the list would be ranked by weight, but separate WR notation might not be on the #1 lift......because someone screwed up and the promoter (who would certainly be very aware) let it happen.

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I did not fail at anything, son of England. The title of the thread was done by Cannon as he lifted this discussion out of another thread.

Is that 0.5kg or 0.5lb as Mikael fails to make it certain in his post?

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Matt caught what appears to be a misunderstanding with some: there would be no disqualification of a lift that happened to be, for example, 0.4 kilos above the world record. I can imagine cases where a lifter would intentionally choose to lift less than half a kilo above the record. Perhaps the particular plates at the contest happen to fall .4 kilos above the record and the lifter feels capable of making a lift with that weight, but feels he's not strong enough to make a lift with the next incremental jump.

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I still see a problem here.

1) What degree of accuracy will be used to determine the accuracy of the weights used?

Note: No one see this as a problem YET but wait till a contest (or after one) when a WR

is under consideration or when the competitor ask for the accuracy value used in said contest.

Then what?

2) If an accuracy value cannot be agreed upon then what brand of plates will promoters

have to go out and buy that are pre-calibrated?

Note:

What I mean here is if a degree of accuracy cannot be agreed upon then what companies

plates are going to be used that guarantees within a certain accuracy such as Ivanko or Eleiko?

3) If agreed upon named plates can't be used or an agreed upon accuracy value can't be determined

then how can a competitor know that the weight being lifted (specially if a WR is attempted) is actually

correct or at least within certain values?

It seems inescapable that a pre-determined value will have to be in place.

So it narrows down to 2 choices:

a) An agreed upon accuracy for scales being used for promoters to weigh their plates, bar, collars, etc....

b) An agreed upon plate brand that already has a given accuracy value. In other words, the tolerances will

be agreed upon claimed by said company.

A prime example would be Eric's latest Euro set-up. He has chosen Ivanko which assumes he's happy with their tolerances. But what if he decided to use his standard plates of various brands? See what I mean? Then it comes

down to accuracy values again. Now the question would be what scales were used. Were the scales certified as

accurate when plates, collars, etc were weighed? Within how many ounces? grams? etc.

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Joe,

We have gone over this a million times. If you use the search function you may find some of these discussions.

It think promoters should, over time, work towards the replacement of weighed ('calibrated') plates with certified plates. At the West Australian Grip Championship we only used certified competition plates (Eleiko and Ivanko).

The tolerance Joe, is exactly the same for all brands approved by the IPF (10 grams or 0.0025%).

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Joe,

We have gone over this a million times. If you use the search function you may find some of these discussions.

It think promoters should, over time, work towards the replacement of weighed ('calibrated') plates with certified plates. At the West Australian Grip Championship we only used certified competition plates (Eleiko and Ivanko).

The tolerance Joe, is exactly the same for all brands approved by the IPF (10 grams or 0.0025%).

Sounds like to me then that the next question is what plates (approved by IPF) will be used?

If there's going to be a minimum allowance, that minimum has to be an agreed upon accuracy value. Whatever

that value may be (10 grams, 3 oz., etc...).

Lastly, if this has been gone over a million times, why are we going over NOW for the one

millionth and one time? LOL!

Do you like beating a dead horse Mikael?

Maybe we should come up with a rule on how many times one can bring up a subject?

Seems you are indirectly telling me to not give input. If so, SORRY because that's one of many things these type

forums are about. To share and express ideas. You can express yourself and so can I.

Agreed?

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To answer your first question: If we decide to require only certified plates when we can of course use any brand or combination of brands approved by the IPF, any suggestion to allow one brand only of certified plates is....well let's call it silly.

I must admit that I don't see much of a problem at this stage Joe. Some promoters are now moving towards the use of certified plates which is good and almost all promoters these days use either certified or weighed plates (weighed on a certified or calibrated scale) which is also good.

Promoters are trying hard to meet these relatively new requirements (with zero financial support) so let's not imply that we are sloppy about this.

Edited by Mikael Siversson
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Mikael, I'm not implying sloppiness. You are putting words in my mouth.

I'm making aware problems I see with what's being proposed. That's all!

Scales? Great! I can give some recommendations that are accurate to 10 grams or less. ;)

Financial support? Who brought this into the subject? I thought the discussion was concerning

minimum weight allowances for WR's? Red Herring? Shame on you Mikael. :angry2:

So now that we agree on the need for an accuracy value. Now the question is up to those promoting

contests to determine which route they'll go. Ivanko/Elieko plates? Certified scales down to 10 grams?

Are we in agreement here Mikael?

Stay on topic please. :)

Financial support should be another topic. I have some input on that topic as well. Will you join in? :)

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The scale people use for weighing their plates is most commonly certified post office scales but you can basically use any non-certified scale with a resolution down to one gram (or 10 grams for heavier stuff) as long as you can point calibrate it with certified plates or proper calibration weights. If people buy a certified scale (they are not cheap, as in > $1,000) there is no guarantee that they would continue to have it professionally calibrated (which needs to be done once a year, following IPF rules). Most post offices would probably refuse to weigh an Axle for example.

It is of course irrelevant which certified brand we use as they all qualify for a certain standard (are you working for Ivanko? :huh: ).

Be my guest trying to enforce any calibration proceedure. It tried it a few years ago with interesting results. I think anal was the nicest of all descriptive terms applied to me.

Edited by Mikael Siversson
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A few points...

Anyone who is holding a grip contest should be aware of this and should not allow a competitor to do this. If they are running a comp which has an established World Record, then they should be ready to push that competitor to lift the minimum above the record.

You've got to put a minimum requirement in there somewhere. Otherwise someone could lift an ounce more than the previous record. What kind of a record would that be? There has to be a line drawn.

I don't see the point of having two lists. What it essentially amounts to is an unoffical lift because they didn't meet requirements.

There are expectations for World Record performances in many sports. Some have been cited above. My understanding is that with sprinting events in Track and Field, records can be disqualified if there is too much wind. Again, not a completely parallel example to our discussion, but neither is the arm wrestling example, since we are not saying the lift has to be done at any particular level of competition, but I do understand the point that confusion can be generated due to how things played out. I see it all going back to the promoter having the responsibility to make sure the competitors' attempts meet the requirements.

I'd agree with about everything but the bolded statements. So if you want to put a minimum in and you don't want two lists what happens to somebody that lifts 1 ounce more than your WR? Are you saying that lift doesn't count at all and they get a goose egg for that attempt while those that are pulling less weight potentially move up the pinch list? And to answer the question, it would be an ounce heavier than the WR and thus stronger. If we don't think we can accurately measure that then what is the point of going out to the hundreths on the calibration process?

Someone brought up weighing stuff after a record. That is a bad idea in my opinion. I learned that when I broke the 1" Vertical Bar record in 2005. We weeighed everything afterwards and it was short of the number we thought it was.

I guess we just disagree on this one, Josh.

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There has been a couple of time when the 2HP has been broken by such a small amount that I certainly raised an eyebrow. I think 0.5k is ok although percentage-wise it is a rather big jump in for example the 1HP compared to a 400k deadlift.

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A reminder that I believe they provided for the lighter lifts (like GripTopz) with a 0.25 min. Maybe also because there is no "even loading" with the vertical stacking.

This just seems straight-forward and simple to manage to me.

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  • 1 month later...

Jedd,

I hate being right in this case but it did not take long for someone to prove my point. Matti's 47.09k 1HP in the 105k class is less than 0.5k above Adam's 46.87k WR. So, who is the WR holder?

If the promoter allows that to happen it will be on them. This information is all going to be readily available to the masses. We've already begun dispursing it on the major grip sport forum, on david's site, and it will be available at gripsport.org. There will be no viable excuse for not knowing this.

Edited by Mikael Siversson
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I will record it as the #1 lift but not as a WR then.

I understand but what will you do if it happens? Will you disqualify the lift? I guess that would be the only option as you can't have a situation where a valid lift is higher than the WR.

I don't see it as a problem. You very well could have a legitimate lift be greater than the world record. The lift simply wasn't performed according to world record standards, and therefore, though it would count towards the total points in the contest in question, it would not be a world record. This happens in powerlifting from time to time. One common reason being when a lift is not judged by international judges. I remember when there were quite a few American records greater than the official world records.

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  • 1 year later...

We clearly need to establish firm rules about this.

Elizabeth broke her own 1HP WR for females by 20 grams!

My suggestion hereby put forward to the IGC is to vote for a minimum percentage for WRs that will apply across all lifts. If we use 0.5k for example it might result in very few new records set in eg the 1HP but many in eg the Axle. How about 0.5% or 0.25%?

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Reading through the thread it certainly sounds like the IGC have decided on 0.5k but yet DH (a IGC member) now implies that there is no such rule?

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The reason the 0.5/0.25k rule is not in the IGC rule book is because it got voted out by us in Feb 2012.

The rules in the rule book are the current rules.

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