Road To Coc#4 - Time To Get This Done!

[Florian Kellersmann]

Paul, in the ironmind Forum you can discuss with Joe Kinney himself. I don't see any reason why he should have been cheating. I think he is a typical Underground guy who Trains for himself in the first matter - not to boost his ego on Internet Forums or something like that...

Hope you have success with your Training!

[Paul Savage]

Paul, in the ironmind Forum you can discuss with Joe Kinney himself. I don't see any reason why he should have been cheating. I think he is a typical Underground guy who Trains for himself in the first matter - not to boost his ego on Internet Forums or something like that...

Hope you have success with your Training!

Thanks. I don't think you have to be posting on internet forums to boost ego but i understand the character of joe is of such, that does not make it make sense though. I am a poker player, if something doesnt make sense its almost always not the case. I just dont see him being so dramatically stronger than even holle, especially with training methods he used. As said, my opinion is that if that was a #4 it was with very wide spread and very high mount and not a normal #4.

[Jared Goguen]

Not sure about Joe's #4 close but his squat numbers sent up red flags for me.

[JoshW]

I have often questioned this myself. I wish there was a clear video showing the end of the handles clearly before and after.

[mobsterone]

Paul, you make a comment about doubting Joe followed by suggesting you weren't aware of his closing other grippers. Become aware. Then those that look to you for your thoughts will know you have an idea of what you're on about. I've paid little or no attention to the arguments here on the GB but I managed to persuade Joe to reply to questions on the IM forum. Joe is like you and I. We've both handled a few 4's in our time.

[slazbob]

Not sure about Joe's #4 close but his squat numbers sent up red flags for me.

I think that got out of hand...he was using the safety squat bar, and had handles that helped him as well; he held on to those to help his legs keep going.

Joe is a really nice guy! Go and talk to him over there. Even if you don't believe him, he's the best guy to talk grip with- knows his sh@t!

Paul-

Sorry to be hijacking your thread.

[Paul Savage]

Paul, you make a comment about doubting Joe followed by suggesting you weren't aware of his closing other grippers. Become aware. Then those that look to you for your thoughts will know you have an idea of what you're on about. I've paid little or no attention to the arguments here on the GB but I managed to persuade Joe to reply to questions on the IM forum. Joe is like you and I. We've both handled a few 4's in our time.

Thanks, am reading it.

[Cannon]

He would have had to be able to do #4 tns for 10+ reps so why wait years after you first close it to certify when all you needed to do was close it? Makes no sense.

People do make interesting choices when it comes to certification . This is the exact logic for all those wondering why you don't just nail down a 3.5 cert.

[Paul Savage]

Today plate pinch for first time in long while. Seeing how narrow some plates are i will list widths with plates from now on.

One hand plate pinch

- 5 x 5kg x 5 lifts each hand last held for time (101mm)

- Three 15kg with one finger/thumb assist x 1 / 1 (104mm)

- two 15kg lift and hold for tine each hand (71mm)

Thick handle grippers

low mounted ans freezing cold HG400 in garage as could not get to my other..

- tns x 8 right 3 left

- 20mm block x 8 right 4 left

- 10mm block x 10 right 6 left

- 5mm block x 6 right 4 left

bar hang for time (freely spinning olympic bar)

- fat gripz extreme x 2 sets

- fat gripz x 2 sets

- normal x 2 sets

Extensors

- 2 sets reps each hand

Hopefully monday i can finally get a bit of a day off and can try sort out light in garage to film training.

[Paul Savage]

He would have had to be able to do #4 tns for 10+ reps so why wait years after you first close it to certify when all you needed to do was close it? Makes no sense.

People do make interesting choices when it comes to certification . This is the exact logic for all those wondering why you don't just nail down a 3.5 cert.

I don't really think that's the same thing though as the #4 is all there is to accomplish, you can't go any higher so why would you not certify would be my thoughts. I will continue to read steves thread and maybe even ask joe some questions myself.

[Paul Savage]

Ok so i have read the thread on kinney. Basically he says he got to the point where he was 'killing all #4's' right hand but left was behind this, not sure how far. He also says he had no luck lifting the inch so the throw and catch story was bs. Bit of a weird thing was that he said he was useless at pinch grip but did a ton of thumb training. He said he could do #3 full rom to almost closed from the off and #2 very easy. All his training was basically centred around negatives with heavy poundages and beyond the range stuff / said he got lot of wrist and thumb pain, struggled around lots of injuries. Have tried negatives a number of times personally and i have never seen any benefit from negatives to the actual positive but i definately feel like if he did start near to a full rom #3 close he could get to #4 with his methods just due to drive, plus the injuries make sense. What still does not make sense is the close in video. Will pm him and see if i can find out a few things.

[slazbob]

By the way i don't think kinney really closed #4 or anything either. I tried #3 gripper close like kinney did #4 after getting new #4 ccs to 2mm from closed and it was not easy to do. He would have had to be able to do #4 tns for 10+ reps so why wait years after you first close it to certify when all you needed to do was close it? Makes no sense. Also his poudages dont add up from when i tried his training / his training methods just dont work.

Don't forget, he was closing the no.4 in November/ December of '96. Then it took a while before they got the pictures the way they wanted in January '97.

Then it was a bit before he made the video. So he had time to master the no.4 and smash it.

It wasn't years of waiting.

[Paul Savage]

2 months plus a bit to go from closing to slow closing then grinding the hell out of the handles?? Best progress of anybody by a long long way if so, and after already going from less than a #3? Makes zero sense. When i get round to pming him hopefully can clarify some things.

[Alawadhi]

Paul, you make sense. The strongest man on the planet nowadays with roids too can't do what Kinney did so you have all the right to question him.

Also, don't worry about others saying you can't do this nor that. I remember you since viper time. You also closed a #4 which Steve (another #4 closer and thick bar daddy) couldn't when you first met him if memory serves me right. Just keep on training hard and remember not to be arrogant and think you are the best. Many are very good too and some are better than you I believe . I believe with training you can and will cert on the #4 one day. But same as what everyone said, try to cert on other like the #3 and #3.5. One day God forbids you might injure yourself real hard as did Sum Gabrial. But that's just my opinion and I know you don't want anything besides a #4. So train hard for that day.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Alawadhi

[slazbob]

Paul, you make sense. The strongest man on the planet nowadays with roids too can't do what Kinney did so you have all the right to question him.

.

Do the above^ train the way Joe did? I'm sure it's not even close.

[Paul Savage]

Paul, you make sense. The strongest man on the planet nowadays with roids too can't do what Kinney did so you have all the right to question him.

Also, don't worry about others saying you can't do this nor that. I remember you since viper time. You also closed a #4 which Steve (another #4 closer and thick bar daddy) couldn't when you first met him if memory serves me right. Just keep on training hard and remember not to be arrogant and think you are the best. Many are very good too and some are better than you I believe . I believe with training you can and will cert on the #4 one day. But same as what everyone said, try to cert on other like the #3 and #3.5. One day God forbids you might injure yourself real hard as did Sum Gabrial. But that's just my opinion and I know you don't want anything besides a #4. So train hard for that day.

Am not arrogant in any way if you knew me in person you would know this. It doesnt make me awesome person if i can close #4 or not, just means i have strong hands. Being good person is being there for loved ones when needed etc

I can only go off what i see and have read nathan ccs old #4 but closest have seen ccs new #4 from others is 1/4 inch and i have done many closer attempts. If others have done ccs new #4 already then i congradulate them and i hope they certify.

No i could not close #4 when i first met steve, not sure where that story came about.

[Paul Savage]

Paul, you make sense. The strongest man on the planet nowadays with roids too can't do what Kinney did so you have all the right to question him.

.

Do the above^ train the way Joe did? I'm sure it's not even close.

The above train there hands very very hard and lift insane weights day in day out. I have tried joe's methods a number of times and lost strength, i know several others have tried them without a great deal of success. I don't think a routine based on negatives will do much of anything but make you good at negatives. This is also a great way to snap a tendon off. I don't feel it's a worth while method. Edited December 7, 2014 by Paul Savage

[slazbob]

Paul, you make sense. The strongest man on the planet nowadays with roids too can't do what Kinney did so you have all the right to question him.

.

Do the above^ train the way Joe did? I'm sure it's not even close.

The above train there hands very very hard and lift insane weights day in day out. I have tried joe's methods a number of times and lost strength, i know several others have tried them without a great deal of success. I don't think a routine based on negatives will do much of anything but make you good at negatives. This is also a great way to snap a tendon off. I don't feel it's a worth while method.

You think they train grippers like Joe did? Now you're just reaching.

Again, don't compare your results to Joe's. If his ideas didn't help you, you probably didn't do it right. Did you use a Monster Gripper, for your results test? I'd say no...being your palms seem to bruise easily.

[Paul Savage]

Paul, you make sense. The strongest man on the planet nowadays with roids too can't do what Kinney did so you have all the right to question him.

.

Do the above^ train the way Joe did? I'm sure it's not even close.

The above train there hands very very hard and lift insane weights day in day out. I have tried joe's methods a number of times and lost strength, i know several others have tried them without a great deal of success. I don't think a routine based on negatives will do much of anything but make you good at negatives. This is also a great way to snap a tendon off. I don't feel it's a worth while method.

You think they train grippers like Joe did? Now you're just reaching.

Again, don't compare your results to Joe's. If his ideas didn't help you, you probably didn't do it right. Did you use a Monster Gripper, for your results test? I'd say no...being your palms seem to bruise easily.

Look at all the guys that have had success since, maybe there is someone but i don't know a single one that bases there training around negatives. Does this not tell you something?

They don't base there typical training around grippers no, but i know mark henry has trained to do #4, so has mike burke and so has rich williams. Burke was at least a 1/4 inch away and got hurt trying it and rich said in his own words '#4, no chance'. These are probably the freakiest grip guys that ever lived, two over 400lb, the other over 350lb. Joe was what, 170lb? 180lb? All these men clean and press the inch dumbbell, joe couldnt even lift it at all yet can grind the handles on a #4?? To me it makes too little sense.

[slazbob]

Paul, you make sense. The strongest man on the planet nowadays with roids too can't do what Kinney did so you have all the right to question him.

.

Do the above^ train the way Joe did? I'm sure it's not even close.

The above train there hands very very hard and lift insane weights day in day out. I have tried joe's methods a number of times and lost strength, i know several others have tried them without a great deal of success. I don't think a routine based on negatives will do much of anything but make you good at negatives. This is also a great way to snap a tendon off. I don't feel it's a worth while method.

You think they train grippers like Joe did? Now you're just reaching.

Again, don't compare your results to Joe's. If his ideas didn't help you, you probably didn't do it right. Did you use a Monster Gripper, for your results test? I'd say no...being your palms seem to bruise easily.

Look at all the guys that have had success since, maybe there is someone but i don't know a single one that bases there training around negatives. Does this not tell you something?

.

It tells me that Joe was successful, because of those negs. The no.4 is the goal, right? No one has caught him yet....

So if you don't do it his way, don't you think it's unfair to say it doesn't work?

How long did you try his methods, Paul? There is a trend in grip that wasn't as prominent back when Joe was at this- being good at everything!

I think that helped him with this.

[Paul Savage]

Paul, you make sense. The strongest man on the planet nowadays with roids too can't do what Kinney did so you have all the right to question him.

.

Do the above^ train the way Joe did? I'm sure it's not even close.

The above train there hands very very hard and lift insane weights day in day out. I have tried joe's methods a number of times and lost strength, i know several others have tried them without a great deal of success. I don't think a routine based on negatives will do much of anything but make you good at negatives. This is also a great way to snap a tendon off. I don't feel it's a worth while method.

You think they train grippers like Joe did? Now you're just reaching.

Again, don't compare your results to Joe's. If his ideas didn't help you, you probably didn't do it right. Did you use a Monster Gripper, for your results test? I'd say no...being your palms seem to bruise easily.

Look at all the guys that have had success since, maybe there is someone but i don't know a single one that bases there training around negatives. Does this not tell you something?

.

It tells me that Joe was successful, because of those negs. The no.4 is the goal, right? No one has caught him yet....

So if you don't do it his way, don't you think it's unfair to say it doesn't work?

How long did you try his methods, Paul? There is a trend in grip that wasn't as prominent back when Joe was at this- being good at everything!

I think that helped him with this.

I can't remember exact time frames but a while. You don't seem to understand that's it's basically impossible to ccs a #4 without having a very high level of all around grip strength. Look at the guys on the #3.5 list, how many of them are just good at grippers? It does not work that way in that you just train grippers and get good at grippers, you have to do a lot of things to ccs high level grippers. Otherwise i would not bother to do pinch, thickbar, extensors etc Joe trained his thumbs to the point where, in his own words, he could use his thumb strength to grind the heck out of the handles of a #4, and yet was rubbish at pinch grip and had no luck with the inch dumbbell. I'm no genius but that's not possible in my book, not even close. Everybody on even the #3.5 list can lift inch dumbbell, someone that can near no set close then grind the handles of #4 could ccs #3.5 for 20 reps.

[slazbob]

Paul, you make sense. The strongest man on the planet nowadays with roids too can't do what Kinney did so you have all the right to question him.

.

Do the above^ train the way Joe did? I'm sure it's not even close.

The above train there hands very very hard and lift insane weights day in day out. I have tried joe's methods a number of times and lost strength, i know several others have tried them without a great deal of success. I don't think a routine based on negatives will do much of anything but make you good at negatives. This is also a great way to snap a tendon off. I don't feel it's a worth while method.

You think they train grippers like Joe did? Now you're just reaching.

Again, don't compare your results to Joe's. If his ideas didn't help you, you probably didn't do it right. Did you use a Monster Gripper, for your results test? I'd say no...being your palms seem to bruise easily.

Look at all the guys that have had success since, maybe there is someone but i don't know a single one that bases there training around negatives. Does this not tell you something?

.

It tells me that Joe was successful, because of those negs. The no.4 is the goal, right? No one has caught him yet....

So if you don't do it his way, don't you think it's unfair to say it doesn't work?

How long did you try his methods, Paul? There is a trend in grip that wasn't as prominent back when Joe was at this- being good at everything!

I think that helped him with this.

I can't remember exact time frames but a while. You don't seem to understand that's it's basically impossible to ccs a #4 without having a very high level of all around grip strength. Look at the guys on the #3.5 list, how many of them are just good at grippers? It does not work that way in that you just train grippers and get good at grippers, you have to do a lot of things to ccs high level grippers. Otherwise i would not bother to do pinch, thickbar, extensors etc .

None of them are on the no.4 list, Paul.

[Paul Savage]

Paul, you make sense. The strongest man on the planet nowadays with roids too can't do what Kinney did so you have all the right to question him.

.

Do the above^ train the way Joe did? I'm sure it's not even close.

The above train there hands very very hard and lift insane weights day in day out. I have tried joe's methods a number of times and lost strength, i know several others have tried them without a great deal of success. I don't think a routine based on negatives will do much of anything but make you good at negatives. This is also a great way to snap a tendon off. I don't feel it's a worth while method.

You think they train grippers like Joe did? Now you're just reaching.

Again, don't compare your results to Joe's. If his ideas didn't help you, you probably didn't do it right. Did you use a Monster Gripper, for your results test? I'd say no...being your palms seem to bruise easily.

Look at all the guys that have had success since, maybe there is someone but i don't know a single one that bases there training around negatives. Does this not tell you something?

.

It tells me that Joe was successful, because of those negs. The no.4 is the goal, right? No one has caught him yet....

So if you don't do it his way, don't you think it's unfair to say it doesn't work?

How long did you try his methods, Paul? There is a trend in grip that wasn't as prominent back when Joe was at this- being good at everything!

I think that helped him with this.

I can't remember exact time frames but a while. You don't seem to understand that's it's basically impossible to ccs a #4 without having a very high level of all around grip strength. Look at the guys on the #3.5 list, how many of them are just good at grippers? It does not work that way in that you just train grippers and get good at grippers, you have to do a lot of things to ccs high level grippers. Otherwise i would not bother to do pinch, thickbar, extensors etc .

None of them are on the no.4 list, Paul.

The #4 is harder than the #3.5, much harder, and what joe did, if a real normal #4, is much, much, MUCH harder than certing #4. However he couldn't do something all of the #3.5 certed guys can do. How can that make sense?

Edited December 7, 2014 by Paul Savage

[slazbob]

Well what I'm saying is...gripper training isn't going to make you strong for the inch. So Joe couldn't lift it...but could close the no.4

Those guys you mentioned: Rivera has said that he used heavy negs on the grip machine, from what I can remember.

Vogt mentioned a 240lb lift on the RT, but never heard of any other training from him.

And the other guys are well-rounded: being strong at everything will certainly help your grip, but when you are trying to close that gap on the no.4, you have to put all your focus right there.

Not be putting in no-progress gripper workouts, because you fried your hands training the inch or axle, etc.

I think the thick bar training is very helpful for the sweep of the close....you know-where you said Joe struggled with? But the last bit, needs gripper focus.

And don't forget Joe's Monster Gripper....where all that horsepower came from.

[Hubgeezer]

Where did anyone read that Joe Kinney never lifted the Inch?