How Much Does Genetics Play In Grip Strength?

[Scott Styles]

stronger than me = good genetics

weaker than me = lazy

[RiotGrip]

I appreciate your input RiotGrip!

Couple of observations based on what you stated:

1)Quote "Everyone who has closed a #4 to my knowledge has closed a #3 within 4 months or less (with a set)",

Not true. Paul Knight is an example.

2) Quote, Everyone has fast twitch muscle, the percentage of it in each muscle group is what counts, for a maximal lift through a full range of motion

True, everyone has FT, Type 2 muscle fibers. The percentage of type 2 fibers in each muscle groups is what counts is

NOT TRUE in and of itself. What does count (collectively) is the number of motor units activated, size (CSA) of Type 2 fibers, initial muscle length of fibers, joint angle, and speed of muscle action.

For example, you can have 2 athletes with the same number (percentage) of FT fibers in a given muscle group but the one with the most motor unit recruitment and larger CSA will have more strength than the other one with less of each. This doesn't even consider joint angle and muscle length ratio. In other words, maximal force depends on the relative position of the muscles insertion on the bone (this is where the tendon attaches your muscle to bone). If ones tendons are inserted futher

towards the end of a bone the more leverage they will have using that muscle group.

3) Quote, "the most important factor of your grip strength will be the percentage of fast-twitch muscle you have in your forearms."

Not true, See above. the presence of FT,T2 fibers alone doesn't equate to more strength (force applied). Other factors I mention above combined have to be considered.

Also, I'm not sharing this knowledge in order to discourage anyone from grip training. I'm sharing it as a reality

as far as genetics is concerned.

Hope this discussion continues. It's all good!

My thoughts on Paul Knight were that he certified in 2003 with the #3--without a serious training regemin, and then got more serious into into gripper work at a later date. I could be wrong on that, but the #3 was easily reached by him as far as I knew.

Also, your discussion of fast twitch muscle is getting into physiology text book territory. I understand the difference between glycolytic and oxidative fast twitch fibers, but it is probably a little advanced for this discussion.

Furthermore, the ability to recruit more motor units(than the average good lifter), does not help you as much through a full range of motion exercise like a CCS or TNS gripper close in the same way that it does in something like bending which will benefit from multiple short burst/short range of motion movements. Those who can use all or nearly all their motor units, can typically only do it in short bursts--ie bending, chain breaking, and can't sustain it through a full range of motion. Think of Dennis Rogers when discussing motor unit activation.

I'll stand my my original statement that all other things being equal the biggest factor in your grip strength potential will be the percentage of fast twitch muscle in your forearms. That is genetics, and genetics do matter.

[KBI]

I have stated the same thing many times and some people just don't like it on message boards (they say it's negative) but it holds true based on what I have seen the last 30 years. If you want to bench 400, then getting to 300 should be basically "little effort". Same with closing a 3 versus a 4. If you have the capability to close a 4, then getting to a 3 was basically a piece of cake. The same logic applies to any lift. If you want to bench 500, getting to 400 should have been a piece of cake.

And, yes, it's genetics.

That was not the case with me. At 15 I was benching around 150, & took me 4 yrs to bench over 400.. Freshmen to a Senior.

[1stCoC]

Genetics... yes, fast twitch... yes ,technique training.... yes, intense planned training... yes, hard work yes, but to a limited extent depending on other factors. The chance of a guy already in the lifting mainstream with hard work and a non cert set "could"I think work up to a close with a #3 but after nearly a quarter of a century examining and seeing men's and women's grip tested and exhibited the #3 is the "breakoff point" for the upper end of human grip strength and success in a full range close depends on other factors coming together. Yes, sub max level human attempts success come pretty fast but, by "numbers listed" few rise to the level to actually certify. I would love take a poll of how many past CoC closers could do it now or again. In any case not "easy". The 3.5 with a CC set is the rarified air and the #4 still might be the limit not attainable. I also wonder how many out there in our COC ranks no matter HOW strong shut it(#3) truly UNTRAINED the FIRST time using just pure, raw strength(and without chemical help?). Kudos to ANY that have ever truly did that.RS

[mightyjoe]

Gee guys, if you start going into analysis paralysis one can even point to differences in attachments/hand makeup (again genetics) as a factor for closing big grippers. Genetics do matter, plain and simply. As one smart trainer once stated..."You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit". BWAH!

Some people like myself like details. This is just me. If the details don't matter

I'll back off and just read others input. No problem here.

Knowing how the body works is a huge plus in anyone's training

and understanding of how and why things work or don't work.

I will say this, if you don't understand how and why something works

you're only cheating yourself and you'll spend the rest of your training life

through others trials and errors (and your own) not knowing why or why not something

works.

Have at it my grip friends!!! I wish you well!!!

Back to my laboratory. LOL!!!

[Shamshon]

Gee guys, if you start going into analysis paralysis one can even point to differences in attachments/hand makeup (again genetics) as a factor for closing big grippers. Genetics do matter, plain and simply. As one smart trainer once stated..."You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit". BWAH!

Some people like myself like details. This is just me. If the details don't matter

I'll back off and just read others input. No problem here.

Knowing how the body works is a huge plus in anyone's training

and understanding of how and why things work or don't work.

I will say this, if you don't understand how and why something works

you're only cheating yourself and you'll spend the rest of your training life

through others trials and errors (and your own) not knowing why or why not something

works.

Have at it my grip friends!!! I wish you well!!!

Back to my laboratory. LOL!!!

As far as I am concerned, I say keep the details coming. In fact, I have looked forward to reading your posts over the past few days.

[bencrush]

Gee guys, if you start going into analysis paralysis one can even point to differences in attachments/hand makeup (again genetics) as a factor for closing big grippers. Genetics do matter, plain and simply. As one smart trainer once stated..."You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit". BWAH!

Some people like myself like details. This is just me. If the details don't matter

I'll back off and just read others input. No problem here.

Knowing how the body works is a huge plus in anyone's training

and understanding of how and why things work or don't work.

I will say this, if you don't understand how and why something works

you're only cheating yourself and you'll spend the rest of your training life

through others trials and errors (and your own) not knowing why or why not something

works.

Have at it my grip friends!!! I wish you well!!!

Back to my laboratory. LOL!!!

Keep it coming Joe! I enjoy reading your feedback on this topic.

[mightyjoe]

Gee guys, if you start going into analysis paralysis one can even point to differences in attachments/hand makeup (again genetics) as a factor for closing big grippers. Genetics do matter, plain and simply. As one smart trainer once stated..."You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit". BWAH!

Some people like myself like details. This is just me. If the details don't matter

I'll back off and just read others input. No problem here.

Knowing how the body works is a huge plus in anyone's training

and understanding of how and why things work or don't work.

I will say this, if you don't understand how and why something works

you're only cheating yourself and you'll spend the rest of your training life

through others trials and errors (and your own) not knowing why or why not something

works.

Have at it my grip friends!!! I wish you well!!!

Back to my laboratory. LOL!!!

As far as I am concerned, I say keep the details coming. In fact, I have looked forward to reading your posts over the past few days.

I appreciate your comment Shamshon!

I do realize some of this gets technical (sorry RiotGrip) but I was going to layer

my information in a way that leads up to the central nervous systems (CNS) role in

all of this.

There's some really fascinating research and studies done recently concerning the role

the CNS plays in getting stronger. I will post more as time allows but keep in mind that

ALL applications of muscular force are entirely controlled by the CNS. The question then

becomes what causes the CNS to allow more motor unit recruitment (more fibers firing allows

for more force applied) without getting injured. The answers are extremely interesting to me.

One more thing before I'm off to work. A normal human's CNS only fires about 20% of the

total muscle fibers in a given area. There's numerous reasons for this but one of the most important

reasons is your survival. For example, if your CNS allowed 100% of your muscle fibers to fire in any

given area at once it would totally destroy that area and or limb because the force would be so great

that the ligaments and tendons would tear loose from their attachment points.

In a future post I will share with everyone interested how to convince your CNS that it's safe

to allow for more motor unit recruitment. The answers may surprise many here.

Take care...

Edited December 22, 2010 by Mighty Joe

[mightyjoe]

Gee guys, if you start going into analysis paralysis one can even point to differences in attachments/hand makeup (again genetics) as a factor for closing big grippers. Genetics do matter, plain and simply. As one smart trainer once stated..."You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit". BWAH!

Some people like myself like details. This is just me. If the details don't matter

I'll back off and just read others input. No problem here.

Knowing how the body works is a huge plus in anyone's training

and understanding of how and why things work or don't work.

I will say this, if you don't understand how and why something works

you're only cheating yourself and you'll spend the rest of your training life

through others trials and errors (and your own) not knowing why or why not something

works.

Have at it my grip friends!!! I wish you well!!!

Back to my laboratory. LOL!!!

Keep it coming Joe! I enjoy reading your feedback on this topic.

Thank you very much for your comment Ben!

See my reply to Shamshon above.

MORE soon my friend!!!

[RiotGrip]

Gee guys, if you start going into analysis paralysis one can even point to differences in attachments/hand makeup (again genetics) as a factor for closing big grippers. Genetics do matter, plain and simply. As one smart trainer once stated..."You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit". BWAH!

Some people like myself like details. This is just me. If the details don't matter

I'll back off and just read others input. No problem here.

Knowing how the body works is a huge plus in anyone's training

and understanding of how and why things work or don't work.

I will say this, if you don't understand how and why something works

you're only cheating yourself and you'll spend the rest of your training life

through others trials and errors (and your own) not knowing why or why not something

works.

Have at it my grip friends!!! I wish you well!!!

Back to my laboratory. LOL!!!

As far as I am concerned, I say keep the details coming. In fact, I have looked forward to reading your posts over the past few days.

I appreciate your comment Shamshon!

I do realize some of this gets technical (sorry RiotGrip) but I was going to layer

my information in a way that leads up to the central nervous systems (CNS) role in

all of this.

There's some really fascinating research and studies done recently concerning the role

the CNS plays in getting stronger. I will post more as time allows but keep in mind that

ALL applications of muscular force are entirely controlled by the CNS. The question then

becomes what causes the CNS to allow more motor unit recruitment (more fibers firing allows

for more force applied) without getting injured. The answers are extremely interesting to me.

One more thing before I'm off to work. A normal human's CNS only fires about 20% of the

total muscle fibers in a given area. There's numerous reasons for this but one of the most important

reasons is your survival. For example, if your CNS allowed 100% of your muscle fibers to fire in any

given area at once it would totally destroy that area and or limb because the force would be so great

that the ligaments and tendons would tear loose from their attachment points.

In a future post I will share with everyone interested how to convince your CNS that it's safe

to allow for more motor unit recruitment. The answers may surprise many here.

Take care...

Wow, your research sounds interesting, you obviously know more about CNS activation than I do, but it was my understanding that many of the people who could activate a higher percentage of motor units, have suffered injury because of it. Slim the Hammer Man has had ligamentous and bony injuries on his heavy lifts, the mighty atom also suffered injuries at various points in his career too...all due to letting themselves push too hard.

So the real question to you is.. How much above 20% of motor unit firing is safe in humans 30%, 40% more? Do you know or plan to know the answer? I'd also be curious of the technique to disinhibit the CNS.

A note to all reading this post: going beyond the limit of when your brain tells you to stop can be life threatening, not just to the body part you are working. All of your normal physiologic responses will go beyond normal levels such as blood pressure, intraocular pressure, and intraabdominal pressure. This can lead to complications beyond a broken bone or ligament. Please keep this in mind.

[mightyjoe]

Gee guys, if you start going into analysis paralysis one can even point to differences in attachments/hand makeup (again genetics) as a factor for closing big grippers. Genetics do matter, plain and simply. As one smart trainer once stated..."You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit". BWAH!

Some people like myself like details. This is just me. If the details don't matter

I'll back off and just read others input. No problem here.

Knowing how the body works is a huge plus in anyone's training

and understanding of how and why things work or don't work.

I will say this, if you don't understand how and why something works

you're only cheating yourself and you'll spend the rest of your training life

through others trials and errors (and your own) not knowing why or why not something

works.

Have at it my grip friends!!! I wish you well!!!

Back to my laboratory. LOL!!!

As far as I am concerned, I say keep the details coming. In fact, I have looked forward to reading your posts over the past few days.

I appreciate your comment Shamshon!

I do realize some of this gets technical (sorry RiotGrip) but I was going to layer

my information in a way that leads up to the central nervous systems (CNS) role in

all of this.

There's some really fascinating research and studies done recently concerning the role

the CNS plays in getting stronger. I will post more as time allows but keep in mind that

ALL applications of muscular force are entirely controlled by the CNS. The question then

becomes what causes the CNS to allow more motor unit recruitment (more fibers firing allows

for more force applied) without getting injured. The answers are extremely interesting to me.

One more thing before I'm off to work. A normal human's CNS only fires about 20% of the

total muscle fibers in a given area. There's numerous reasons for this but one of the most important

reasons is your survival. For example, if your CNS allowed 100% of your muscle fibers to fire in any

given area at once it would totally destroy that area and or limb because the force would be so great

that the ligaments and tendons would tear loose from their attachment points.

In a future post I will share with everyone interested how to convince your CNS that it's safe

to allow for more motor unit recruitment. The answers may surprise many here.

Take care...

Wow, your research sounds interesting, you obviously know more about CNS activation than I do, but it was my understanding that many of the people who could activate a higher percentage of motor units, have suffered injury because of it. Slim the Hammer Man has had ligamentous and bony injuries on his heavy lifts, the mighty atom also suffered injuries at various points in his career too...all due to letting themselves push too hard.

So the real question to you is.. How much above 20% of motor unit firing is safe in humans 30%, 40% more? Do you know or plan to know the answer? I'd also be curious of the technique to disinhibit the CNS.

A note to all reading this post: going beyond the limit of when your brain tells you to stop can be life threatening, not just to the body part you are working. All of your normal physiologic responses will go beyond normal levels such as blood pressure, intraocular pressure, and intraabdominal pressure. This can lead to complications beyond a broken bone or ligament. Please keep this in mind.

Thanks again for your input and really good questions Greg!

First, the last thing I want to do is cause any confusion on this subject and it appears from your

questions I may have stated something that is ambigious here.

The good news first. Your CNS will not allow under normal circumstances the activation of more motor units

to fire than is essential to ones survival (more on survival versus competiveness in a later post). It seems

I may have implied that there's a way to override your CNS to fire more motor units for greater strength output.

Not the case. Before someone jumps the gun here, please pay careful attention.

There's ways to ALLOW your CNS to conclude that it's safe to fire more motor units for greater output.

There's no way I'm aware of to FORCE your CNS to fire more motor units for greater output (strength/power).

Now, all those following this discussion with interest PLEASE read the 2 above statements several times to make sure

you understand what I'm claiming here before we go any further. There's a BIG difference.

Greg, again I appreciate your input my friend. Sounds like you've done your share of research also.

MORE soon!!!

I'm extremely busy right here before Christmas as I know others are too.

Take care...

[mightyjoe]

Gee guys, if you start going into analysis paralysis one can even point to differences in attachments/hand makeup (again genetics) as a factor for closing big grippers. Genetics do matter, plain and simply.

Quote: (As one smart trainer once stated..."You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit"). BWAH!

I wonder if this smart trainer ever read any of Confucius sayings?

"Without no data, your chatter don't matter", Confucius, 551-479 BC

Sorry! Couldn't resist.

Not directed at you Bill, just the smart trainer you mention.