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The Phantom 4


Volko Krull

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Volko Krull

Hey folks,

today I sat down and calculated around with the poundages Richard Sorin received

for his grippers from PDA. By comparison of RGC calibrations, I tried to wind up with

a comparison of the Phantom 4 to the CoCs and thus to put it in line with the

numerical way of calibrating grippers with the RGC method.

To put one thing first, in the Richard Sorin interview David Horne displays on his

gripmaster website, Mr. Sorin claims PDA calibrated his old (black spring?) #3 at 527 lb.

while the Phantom 4 weighed in at 621 lb. It is important to know that PDA measured the

grippers by compressing on the centerring as opposed to compressing on the end like RGCs do.

Now if we were to refer to the gripperhell blogspot, a totally average #3 or 3.00

takes 152.15 lb. to close on an RGC. Let's just state, and this is the only point in excess of

simple math here, that the "average #3" and Sorin's were the same in strength, just to make the

equation work.

Okay now the ratio between RGC and PDA would thus be 1:3.464 or from PDA to RGC 1:0.289

Using this, 214.70 lb. for an average #4 would equal 744 ip on the PDA scale, while the

621 ip for the Phantom 4 reversely would equal 179.49 lb. on the RGC.

With this figure, we can determine that, using a ratio of 0.01949 pounds per number on the

RGC numerical scale (derived from the mean of 0.01955, 0.01951 and 0.01942:1 for each a strong,

average and weak #3.5 on the calibration scale), the Phantom 4 likely taking 179.49 lb. to close

on an RGC would clock in at exactly 3.497 on the ladder, or a solid 3.5.

Sincerely,

Volko Krull

PS: I know this is a little far fetched, but when I got done the result of 3.5 surprised me as it

seemed kinda likely. What do you think of it?

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I closed it with a mm set,parallel.It's no #3.5 its a tuff #4.Little Dave Morton closed it right after I did at GGC in 2005?Not sure on the year.

Scott Styles

All this math and thinking is holding you back!

If Sorin's #3 was 25% harder than average, his phantom 4 is a 4.37! Yoked! If it was 25% easer, the phantom 4 is a 2.625!!!

I think grippers vary too much to make an accurate comparison like this. PDA confirmed their data wasn't sufficiently accurate when they shut down their calibration program. The calibrated grippers were all over the place in actual difficulty.

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Volko Krull

Thanks for you input Scott, the 25% issue makes sense.

Would be cool to know how the Phantom really measures up though,

the Kinney 4 would also be an interesting candidate.

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Scott Styles

Richard offers numbers in this thread that indicate the phantom 4 was measured at 1.4 times the strength of a newer COC#3, which (assuming that's an average #3) puts it right in line with an average #4 on the RGC:

http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?showtopic=22854&view=findpost&p=289729

That fits with results of people like Heath trying to close it.

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MVillani1985

I've never made any real attempts on a legendary gripper, so I might just be talking about something I have no idea about, but from what I've read, the Phantom 4 has a spring size like an Elite, but it's built differently so that it's way tougher than a regular Elite, I'm guessing Super Elite or Grand Elite even.

One question: How did they get a gripper made that has a spring size like an Elite, but makes the Elite seem completely non-threatening by comparision? Does it have a really wicked spread or something?

EDIT: I just saw others say that the Phantom 4 is more of a 3.5, I originally guessed it as a standard 4 because I remember on the FAQ thread someone was told that their Elite wouldn't even be in the same ballpark as the Phantom 4. So I'm going to guess it's more like a Super Elite or Grand Elite based on what others are saying here.

Edited by MVillani1985
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Cannon

I think at this point, the most useful thing would be the opinion of someone who has closed the gripper.

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rico300zx

Richard

would you ever be willing to have your phantom calabrated with the rgc method? I know you like the aura surrounding it and we do too but inquiring minds want to know about this monster, since many of us can't relate to the pda method. Could u, would u have a trusted source from here run it through the rgc calabration?

Parris

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My understanding is the P4 has a .292 or .293 spring. I've never tried it but my guess is the extra difficulty lies in the huge spread AND chromed steel handles (read as SLICK), my understanding is the mouunt is fairly high 1/4" or so. Steel varies all over the place but if it was oiled, I'd be shocked if it went much over 180 in an RGC. If it's never been oiled then who knows Remember 180 on a well knurled gripper that will stick in your hands is a lot easier than 180 on one that squirms around. The RGC just measures closing force, it doesn't take sweep and other factors into account.

Edited by jad
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Cannon

Guys, Chad has closed this gripper. I would trust a ballpark from him over math or speculation. Maybe he can comment.

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Florian Kellersmann

Exactly, Josh. I once tried Richards #3 and it was very slick. I think the P4 has the same handles. Chad has closed it, I think.

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Gripper42004

I closed it with a mm set,parallel.It's no #3.5 its a tuff #4.Little Dave Morton closed it right after I did at GGC in 2005?Not sure on the year.

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I think at this point, the most useful thing would be the opinion of someone who has closed the gripper.

What a ridiculous idea.

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climber511

Richard has an RGC of his own - perhaps just ask him if he has calibrated it yet?

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Bob Lipinski

PDA's measuring system was less accurate than a typical homemade RGC calibration, if I remember right. Numbers were all over the place, way worse than the RGC differences.

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DannyGrip

Richard has stated that it was simliar to a #4 and so did Tommy just now.

I would take their word on the matter since they actually closed it.

I'm sure Tommy owns a #3.5 and knows the difference between a #3.5 and #4 - enough to say that the Phantom 4 Gripper was no #3.5, yet he felt was like a #4.

The Phantom 4 was made back in 1992 - a time which a #4 was unknown of and wasn't in production yet, so saying the Phantom 4 was a "Hard" #3 at the time was acceptable, since the #3 was the pinnacle of tough grippers.

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Interesting data. The only grippers available in 1991 from Ironmind were the 1,2,3. ...A much harder,larger similar looking item to the 3.. What would you have "called it"?. Remember the official #4 was not available until several years later. Of the 41 grippers PDA randomly tested for me (John Syzmanski) doing all calibrations of mine and others that day. It seemed like a well thought out digital device that held the grippers straight and tested in inch pounds the closing force to shut the gripper on the end of the handle. The Phantom was randomly checked 11 times that day and never varied but a few inch pounds. Several number #4 "of the day" were tested with lower readings. Grip stalwarts Rich and Tex the only 3.5 official certified gripmen I know say(without knowing what it was) the Phantom is tougher than the 3.5 s they have felt or closed. I did purchase a Calibration device from Chris Rice and asked him first to check that it was functioning properly. I tested a few recent #3s and they were very uniform right at the 150 mark. (We checked the weights used in the calibration as well) My old 527#3 I first certed on was in the low 160's and the Phantom around 186 as I recall but I didn't bother to retest it. The #4 we have here which just scares everyone away (even Rich and Tex was a very high number of 224) I did the testing to gain some personal knowlege no more no less. I would be glad for Chris to come by any time and re check my findings as I know him to be a fair and just man. I am very pleased with the fit finish and accuracy of grippers today they are a fine tool. The grippers I shut are real, the standard of what was available at the time and are a part of the evolution of grip history.Thanks for everyone's thoughtful insight . RS

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Cannon

Richard, thank you for posting your RGC findings. They seem very consistent with what's out there. 224 for the newer #4s is pretty common from what I have seen.

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acorn

Richard thank you for your detailed info on the history and calibration data.

- Aaron

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DannyGrip

Interesting data. The only grippers available in 1991 from Ironmind were the 1,2,3. ...A much harder,larger similar looking item to the 3.. What would you have "called it"?. Remember the official #4 was not available until several years later. Of the 41 grippers PDA randomly tested for me (John Syzmanski) doing all calibrations of mine and others that day. It seemed like a well thought out digital device that held the grippers straight and tested in inch pounds the closing force to shut the gripper on the end of the handle. The Phantom was randomly checked 11 times that day and never varied but a few inch pounds. Several number #4 "of the day" were tested with lower readings. Grip stalwarts Rich and Tex the only 3.5 official certified gripmen I know say(without knowing what it was) the Phantom is tougher than the 3.5 s they have felt or closed. I did purchase a Calibration device from Chris Rice and asked him first to check that it was functioning properly. I tested a few recent #3s and they were very uniform right at the 150 mark. (We checked the weights used in the calibration as well) My old 527#3 I first certed on was in the low 160's and the Phantom around 186 as I recall but I didn't bother to retest it. The #4 we have here which just scares everyone away (even Rich and Tex was a very high number of 224) I did the testing to gain some personal knowlege no more no less. I would be glad for Chris to come by any time and re check my findings as I know him to be a fair and just man. I am very pleased with the fit finish and accuracy of grippers today they are a fine tool. The grippers I shut are real, the standard of what was available at the time and are a part of the evolution of grip history.Thanks for everyone's thoughtful insight . RS

So based on this information - the Phantom 4 gripper is like a "Hard" #3.5 ?

An easy #4 is about 195-200 lbs?

An average #3 about 175 lbs?

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Interesting data. The only grippers available in 1991 from Ironmind were the 1,2,3. ...A much harder,larger similar looking item to the 3.. What would you have "called it"?. Remember the official #4 was not available until several years later. Of the 41 grippers PDA randomly tested for me (John Syzmanski) doing all calibrations of mine and others that day. It seemed like a well thought out digital device that held the grippers straight and tested in inch pounds the closing force to shut the gripper on the end of the handle. The Phantom was randomly checked 11 times that day and never varied but a few inch pounds. Several number #4 "of the day" were tested with lower readings. Grip stalwarts Rich and Tex the only 3.5 official certified gripmen I know say(without knowing what it was) the Phantom is tougher than the 3.5 s they have felt or closed. I did purchase a Calibration device from Chris Rice and asked him first to check that it was functioning properly. I tested a few recent #3s and they were very uniform right at the 150 mark. (We checked the weights used in the calibration as well) My old 527#3 I first certed on was in the low 160's and the Phantom around 186 as I recall but I didn't bother to retest it. The #4 we have here which just scares everyone away (even Rich and Tex was a very high number of 224) I did the testing to gain some personal knowlege no more no less. I would be glad for Chris to come by any time and re check my findings as I know him to be a fair and just man. I am very pleased with the fit finish and accuracy of grippers today they are a fine tool. The grippers I shut are real, the standard of what was available at the time and are a part of the evolution of grip history.Thanks for everyone's thoughtful insight . RS

So based on this information - the Phantom 4 gripper is like a "Hard" #3.5 ?

An easy #4 is about 195-200 lbs?

An average #3 about 175 lbs?

I hope this helps.

http://spreadsheets3.google.com/ccc?key=tUrRkYHMoRy4GziZURsjzaA&hl=en

The information is from this thread.

http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?showtopic=28300

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The Natural

As someone who has actually squeezed a Phantom 4, I will say with authority that it is about a 3.878.

pwned-facekick_medium.jpg

Edited by The Natural
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lifesnotfair

LOL @ Rex's post.

Danny: Richard in his post said that several #3's tested right around 150. According to that spreadsheet just linked, the average out of 120 #3 grippers is 152#.

I think you made a typo and you meant that the average #3.5 is about 175 lbs. According to the spreadsheet, out of 50 #3.5's the average is 177, and the highest of the 50 had a 189.6 rating. So I guess that the Phantom 4 having a 186# rating, you could say it's close to some of the hardest #3.5's out there, not just a "hard #3.5" but who knows.

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DannyGrip

As someone who has actually squeezed a Phantom 4, I will say with authority that it is about a 3.878.

Hahaha, you mean to tell me - you just closed it and you came up with the # of 3.878 ?

Why 3.878 and not 3.872 ?

I'm wondering, can you pick up a 45 lbs dumbell in the gym and just by picking it up determine if it's really 45.321 lbs ?

Unless you actually measured the Phantom 4 - I find it a bit strange that you can come up with such an assessment just by feel.

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DannyGrip

LOL @ Rex's post.

Danny: Richard in his post said that several #3's tested right around 150. According to that spreadsheet just linked, the average out of 120 #3 grippers is 152#.

I think you made a typo and you meant that the average #3.5 is about 175 lbs. According to the spreadsheet, out of 50 #3.5's the average is 177, and the highest of the 50 had a 189.6 rating. So I guess that the Phantom 4 having a 186# rating, you could say it's close to some of the hardest #3.5's out there, not just a "hard #3.5" but who knows.

Yes I made a typo, I meant the average #3.5 is 175 lbs.

Edited by DannyGrip
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