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Joe Kinney's Claims


mightyjoe

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Joe, with all due respect, do you think if Kinney's claims are false he will tell you that??? Of course not.

On the other hand, if it were true, no one would believe him without some kind of proof anyway(video, credible witnesses? ), so, in my humble opinion, I think you already know deep in your heart if his claims are true or not.

People exaggerate, no big deal.

I respect Kinney for his legendary #4 close, but at the same time I can decide for myself if his claims are true or not.

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Are you saying you believe claims of this nature without proof? Give ME a break.

There is enought BS spewed with claims on the Internet and we try to do a little better here with FACTS and not FICTION. That's why the world class feat rule has been in place for years now.

There's little need for all this hesitancy in dismissing Kinney's claim. He did not do it. It's as simple as that. There is nobody--nobody--who can do 440 for 60, much less Joe Kinney. Let's move

I think 200k for 60 is possible, especially if he was short with big legs (and very gifted genetically), it would be extremely difficult though. I doubt anybody would be able to decide to rep out 200k one day and get 60 because it's light to them, it's just too long a time on your back. How i do think it's possible is if you were to train for more reps with the same weight e.g if you were a 310-330k squatter, an then decided to only ever use 200k, but increase reps 1 by 1 over time. Ive done 180 for 20 once doing this, my best squat before it was 220 for a double, i just kept adding reps from the 12 i started with till i managed it (nearly killed me). One thing is for sure, 60 reps with 200k would be brutal.

I am built to squat, i am short, weigh 300+ and my best (no belt or knee wraps) with 440 is 10 reps. Pat Mendes (also weighs 300) - the lad who did the 350kg raw squat, said he did some rep outs with 440lbs a while back and did 12 reps. Bare in mind this was when he was not as strong as he is now and was a back off set after a heavy triple. One of the guys i train with (very short and stocky, 280#) nearly passed out doing 407x16. Point is no one is doing 440x60.

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The Natural

I think 200k for 60 is possible, especially if he was short with big legs (and very gifted genetically), it would be extremely difficult though. I doubt anybody would be able to decide to rep out 200k one day and get 60 because it's light to them, it's just too long a time on your back. How i do think it's possible is if you were to train for more reps with the same weight e.g if you were a 310-330k squatter, an then decided to only ever use 200k, but increase reps 1 by 1 over time. Ive done 180 for 20 once doing this, my best squat before it was 220 for a double, i just kept adding reps from the 12 i started with till i managed it (nearly killed me). One thing is for sure, 60 reps with 200k would be brutal.

I am built to squat, i am short, weigh 300+ and my best (no belt or knee wraps) with 440 is 10 reps. Pat Mendes (also weighs 300) - the lad who did the 350kg raw squat, said he did some rep outs with 440lbs a while back and did 12 reps. Bare in mind this was when he was not as strong as he is now and was a back off set after a heavy triple. One of the guys i train with (very short and stocky, 280#) nearly passed out doing 407x16. Point is no one is doing 440x60.

There's little need for all this hesitancy in dismissing Kinney's claim. He did not do it. It's as simple as that. There is nobody--nobody--who can do 440 for 60, much less Joe Kinney. Let's move on to some other topic, where reasonable disagreement is possible. The only question is how much backpedaling and equivocation he's willing to engage in to get him out of the hole that he's dug for himself.

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climber511

Videoing everything one does and posting it for others to watch is a very recent phenomenon - people have worked out for a long time without it - and many still do - actually I think many more don't video than do. If Joe Kinney had posted this on the Gripboard himself - then I might feel he "owes" you some type of proof. But he didn't and I don't think he owes us anything. Now he may "owe" something to those people who purchased the DVD, I don't know, that might be a different issue.

I remember when I first came on the GB and told the things I had done - and offered no video proof - heck, I still can't and don't post videos. Those things I claimed were hardly world class in any way but due to my age - I heard comments (PMs, Email etc) that I was a liar etc. This is the reason I went to my first grip contest (GGC). And I imagine people probably still say it behind my back - who knows - and I no longer care. My brother in law just took a wrench I bent to his work place and a guy called BS - do I owe him anything - is it necessary that I send him a video, get in my car and go bend another for him? I think the whole issue deserves some thought and a clearer explanation is all before calling foul.

I guess I feel if you don't claim it here - you don't owe an explanation here.

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Jeff Parker

I don't see what the big deal is. You either believe him or not. One of the reasons that he wouldn't come on a board like this is because he can't say he did 110lbs on a HOMEMADE TTK without people needing exact dimensions so they can figure out the "real" closing force and then GUESS if they think he would be able to do this or not. Give the guy a break.

There is enought BS spewed with claims on the Internet and we try to do a little better here with FACTS and not FICTION. That's why the world class feat rule has been in place for years now.

I agree if he came on here and made his claims. He has a video that you have to CHOOSE to buy that makes these claims. If you don't believe him, don't watch the video. He's not going around to different internet forums making these claims and trying to shove his greatness down everyones throat.

Joe, personally I don't believe that he squatted 440x60, but it does not bother me that he would claim it. I take all claims with a grain of salt and don't expect them all to be true.

When I was in high school the joke was if some guy told another guy how much he benched, subtract 20% to get his real number. If he told a girl how much he benched subtract 30%.

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The Natural

I guess I feel if you don't claim it here - you don't owe an explanation here.

I have some friends who work in physics, and they get at least one e-mail every year from someone who claims he has built a perpetual motion machine. They don't demand proof, they just laugh a little and delete the e-mail. That's what needs to happen here. I admire everyone's intellectual diligence in thinking over the matter, but I'd rather see us apply that energy to something with at least the veneer of credibility.

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Guest Bullitt

I have not seen the DVD or video in question, but apparently, from this discussion, the 440 x 60 iss not shown on it? If not, why not?

But to squat about 2.5 times bodyweight for 60 reps, should certainly be preserved on video, along, of course, with an official weighing of the implement used.

I was hoping you would see this thread Joe. I agree. Honestly, 440 X 60 at 40+ years old is a much bigger feat in my opinion than doing what he did with the #4. Why would you not film that??? I just can't see it happening. And while I believe he did what he did with the #4, claims like this can be used to cast doubt on everything that has been claimed for him.

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One thing I think is interesting about the TTK claim is that his thumb pad does seem to be insanely dense. He must have done something. The form he uses to close a gripper has the palm-side handle on his thumb pad only. And it just sits there. His thumb pad does not give way for the #4 handle at all. I can't support a #1 like that--it sinks in some. I agree that understanding the ratios for his machine is necessary to understand the 110# claim.

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Paul Savage

I think 200k for 60 is possible, especially if he was short with big legs (and very gifted genetically), it would be extremely difficult though. I doubt anybody would be able to decide to rep out 200k one day and get 60 because it's light to them, it's just too long a time on your back. How i do think it's possible is if you were to train for more reps with the same weight e.g if you were a 310-330k squatter, an then decided to only ever use 200k, but increase reps 1 by 1 over time. Ive done 180 for 20 once doing this, my best squat before it was 220 for a double, i just kept adding reps from the 12 i started with till i managed it (nearly killed me). One thing is for sure, 60 reps with 200k would be brutal.

I am built to squat, i am short, weigh 300+ and my best (no belt or knee wraps) with 440 is 10 reps. Pat Mendes (also weighs 300) - the lad who did the 350kg raw squat, said he did some rep outs with 440lbs a while back and did 12 reps. Bare in mind this was when he was not as strong as he is now and was a back off set after a heavy triple. One of the guys i train with (very short and stocky, 280#) nearly passed out doing 407x16. Point is no one is doing 440x60.

Probably not been done no, but who would want to try? it's unlikely and very difficult, but think about it, in many years time when your squatting a lot more than you do now, 200k wont feel like 200k does now. Add in a long term (im talking years) plan of gradually increasing reps an i think it's possible. Also i do recall of a bodybuilder in one of gym cutlers dvd's saying hes done 405lb for 50 reps / i dont see why he would lie (in jay to z). For 180lb guy like kinney i dont see it happening, or anything close.

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rico300zx

Move over kinney

Rico

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naturalstrength

There's little need for all this hesitancy in dismissing Kinney's claim. He did not do it. It's as simple as that.

I must(I can't believe I amhappy.gif ) agree with Rex! This is futile!!! If I claimed on a video that I not only pulled a deadlift matching Andy Boltons WR, but that I took that weight for reps, I don't think I would be talked about on a forum, let alone emailed/bothered to see if my claim was geniune. The BS would be smelt right away!!

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Wannagrip

I actually got a kick out of watching JW's reaction or maybe non-reaction with all the talk of huge amounts of testosterone by squatting and "making it at will" type of statements. Because I know John knows his stuff.

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Bill,

I noticed his response was kinda "respectful agreement" and I immagine that would be a tough interview from that perspective; especially when you're wanting to make a vid to sell.

I don't know squat about squatting (had to say that) but that monster gripper I don't believe would be anything like a Super Galaxy gripper. It's made of 7/16 spring steel but the geometry is nothing like a regular gripper. Kinney's right about deflections but that would only apply if you had a gripper without the coil, only a straight spring. He never states exactly where in the handle the 600 pound rating was measured so I don't think we can compare it to RGC numbers.

That gripper started out at a wide parallel then had to be closed to I'm sure a somewhat negative angle. The handles (even the short one) seemed to be much longer than regular gripper handles plus he wore a glove to work out on it.

Bottom line, the monster gripper was impressive but just how tough a feat would be impossible to say unless you had one.

Tim

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mightyjoe

Bill,

I noticed his response was kinda "respectful agreement" and I immagine that would be a tough interview from that perspective; especially when you're wanting to make a vid to sell.

I don't know squat about squatting (had to say that) but that monster gripper I don't believe would be anything like a Super Galaxy gripper. It's made of 7/16 spring steel but the geometry is nothing like a regular gripper. Kinney's right about deflections but that would only apply if you had a gripper without the coil, only a straight spring. He never states exactly where in the handle the 600 pound rating was measured so I don't think we can compare it to RGC numbers.

That gripper started out at a wide parallel then had to be closed to I'm sure a somewhat negative angle. The handles (even the short one) seemed to be much longer than regular gripper handles plus he wore a glove to work out on it.

Bottom line, the monster gripper was impressive but just how tough a feat would be impossible to say unless you had one.

Tim

Tim, this is one of the questions I'm asking Joe also.

You make a good point.

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Guest Bullitt

Dave Tate (Elitefts) is a big squatter. He just posted this video of 315X50 box squats. These are done rest pause with lots of reracking. If he has this much trouble with 315X50, then... Well, draw your own conclusions. :D

By the way, this is an awesome video! :mosher

Is this the type of bar that Joe used?

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Well I've seen Ken Leistner who is all of 160 pounds and over 50 years old do 405x20 quick-like on olympic squats. In the end, who cares. It's probably more healthy to find something better to do than question the claims of a guy who you never have and never will meet and who doesn't really care about the strength community much in general or who hasn't claimed official records.

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#1- his legs are very small. Now, I realize that squatting wont neccesarily give you huge legs, but squatting 440 x 60 would. We all know volume adds mass, and 60 reps in insane volume. Tom Platz did 505 for what, 23? Look at the size of the Blonde Bombers legs!

Agreed. Let's say for arguments sake that 440x60 is possible, doing that many squats at that high a weight would have to make your bodyweight climb above 180lb (unless you're 4ft tall).

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Dave Tate (Elitefts) is a big squatter. He just posted this video of 315X50 box squats. These are done rest pause with lots of reracking. If he has this much trouble with 315X50, then... Well, draw your own conclusions. :D

By the way, this is an awesome video! :mosher

Is this the type of bar that Joe used?

Yes sir Mike, that is an SSB. And Tate is a beast dude!! Guess where he used to workout at.......Westside!

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With regards to the TTK claims, I just rewatched the video and in the old portion he is sitting talking about either motivation or putting his thumb through cans. In the background he had a TTK loaded with 2 of his homemade "55lb" plates. When he hits it with his fist the weights kinda tremble. This tells me that based on his ratio (looks close to 1:1) it may be possible.

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Wannagrip

#1- his legs are very small. Now, I realize that squatting wont neccesarily give you huge legs, but squatting 440 x 60 would. We all know volume adds mass, and 60 reps in insane volume. Tom Platz did 505 for what, 23? Look at the size of the Blonde Bombers legs!

Agreed. Let's say for arguments sake that 440x60 is possible, doing that many squats at that high a weight would have to make your bodyweight climb above 180lb (unless you're 4ft tall).

This was also a paradox for me. With all this talk of "testosterone" making too, and to do this feat I would think his overall size would be bigger. A LOT bigger. :)

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burkhardmacht

I have heard about Joe Kinney tossing the InchDB from hand to hand!

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From what I have read on the GB and elsewhere the #4 Joe Kinney closed was a good regular one, no significant variation from the norm etc.Hence, he is a strong guy to close it in the manner he did. With regards to his other claims in the DVD I get the impression Joe won't give a damn whether people believe him or not since closing the #4 etc was all about challenging himself. Much is made about the testosterone issue, where he "can make it and feel it moving through his body", or whatever. Well, people cultivate chi with proven effects so why, for Joe, should this be any different. Could he be actually cultivating an energy that he attributes to testosterone? Who knows? Doubt is cast on his ability to do the squats he claims. Okay, what about the physical capabilities of say Bruce Lee? Definitely punched above his weight in fighting and lifting. Perhaps Joe is of the same physical mould and doesn't need to weigh 300lbs to achieve such things.

Bottom line Joe owes nothing to no-one since I don't see him (I could be wrong) making a load of cash out of being the first to close a #4. At the end of the day, as a grip enthusiast, I'm only concerned about his #4 close and I think that's been verified. Everything else is by the by. And yes, I have the dvd.

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The equipment Joe used and the techniques he used were very much homemade. I think that it is stupid to get hung up on trying to compare the numbers in a apples to apples comparision when the way he did the exercises in no way conforms to what you may understand is possible using standard equipment and normal techniques. You just cant compare what is possible using a normal bar and regular squat technique to a Safety bar squat using your hands for additional pulling and support. The numbers will be drastically different. Same with a Homemade TTK vs a standard one. the ratios are way different, he even says so in the video. That's almost as bad as saying a HG400 gripper is way harder than a #4 because of its rating. I might suggest not to get too hung up on the numbers presented as a result and maybe try to keep an open mind about the methods presented. I know I have seen and even done some things that most would consider impossible during my time as a competitive thrower, therefore I often have a more open mind to this kinda thing. With gradual progression and appropriate intelligent training techniques the human body can do amazing things.

- Aaron

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Lol999 and Aaron, Well said!

The human body can do crazy things. Before the 1972 olympics, Dan Gable trained for 7 hours a day, 7 days a week. A few weeks before the games, he blew is knee apart. He still competed, won the gold, and on top of that, there were no offensive points scored against him. No one has ever that before or since.

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