Joe Kinney's Claims

[Bearcat 74]

Calvin, thanks for the link.

His is setup quite a bit deeper than mine looks like. I put mine in a powerrack tonight and I could not push it shut with my body weight of 227lbs. The thing about this gripper is the spring length is so much shorter on top of the diameter being HUGE.

[climber511]

I found this on another site and thought it might be of interest. I have this issue and just read it - its a good article and explains much.

in the Sept 97' issue of Milo on page 31 this is what Kinney said about squatting.

He squats every single day, like paying a toll, you walk by it you squat. And, it's on the way to the outhouse, pretty hard to miss.

He has one high rep day a week. 50-80 reps, not all at once, in sets of ten, all day. he'll do ten, go mow the lawn, what ever he's doing, just makes sure to get a bunch of them in once a week.

As far as depth goes "I squat till I get dirt". "I'll squat 335 for high reps and sometimes put on a pair of 25s, which around here is a pair of flywheels".

Kinney's bar is the Hatfield version, just longer. The plates stay on the bar, they're about 9" thick, 21" in diameter and way about 145 each, and he does have handles bolted to the trees.

Edited January 15, 2010 by climber511

[Benedikt Farsmann]

I found this on another site and thought it might be of interest. If anyone has this Milo - please look it up.

in the Sept 97' issue of Milo on page 31 this is what Kinney said about squatting.

He squats every single day, like paying a toll, you walk by it you squat. And, it's on the way to the outhouse, pretty hard to miss.

He has one high rep day a week. 50-80 reps, not all at once, in sets of ten, all day. he'll do ten, go mow the lawn, what ever he's doing, just makes sure to get a bunch of them in once a week.

As far as depth goes "I squat till I get dirt". "I'll squat 335 for high reps and sometimes put on a pair of 25s, which around here is a pair of flywheels".

Kinney's bar is the Hatfield version, just longer. The plates stay on the bar, they're about 9" thick, 21" in diameter and way about 145 each, and he does have handles bolted to the trees.

That's the article I was referring to! Thanks!

[Lol999]

That article then would explain the confusion about his 60 rep squatting session. I will just say, Joe doesn't seem a "sharp" operator, so really it is up to the interviewer, John Wood, to elicit detail. He owes the purchasers of the dvd that much.

[The Natural]

That article then would explain the confusion about his 60 rep squatting session. I will just say, Joe doesn't seem a "sharp" operator, so really it is up to the interviewer, John Wood, to elicit detail. He owes the purchasers of the dvd that much.

Not sure what he meant by "till I hit dirt". If he means full depth squats, that MILO article doesn't explain much at all. Kinney is not strong enough to do 440x10, so saying he did 440x10 six times in a day is for all practical purposes just as incredible as him doing 440x60.

[IROC-Z]

I just watched the video last night. Joe is pretty clear about what he did for squats. He says he worked up to doing one set of 60 reps every morning on an empty stomach. He stated that he worked up to 440 for reps, and he would use 540 for singles. The man seems very sincere, down to earth, and he certainly doesn't strike me as being the kind of person that likes to brag. I don't know exactly what his setup looked like, but after watching the video - I don't believe for a second that he's being untruthful.

It's amazing the way he just destroyed that #4!

[Guest Bullitt]

I just watched the video last night. Joe is pretty clear about what he did for squats. He says he worked up to doing one set of 60 reps every morning on an empty stomach. He stated that he worked up to 440 for reps, and he would use 540 for singles. The man seems very sincere, down to earth, and he certainly doesn't strike me as being the kind of person that likes to brag. I don't know exactly what his setup looked like, but after watching the video - I don't believe for a second that he's being untruthful.

It's amazing the way he just destroyed that #4!

He was doing a 60 rep set with 440 on an empty stomach? Maybe I'm missing something here, but this story gets wilder every time. Does JW do anything during the interview to try and get more detail or does he just let the 440 for 60 on an empty stomach comment go? Everything I have heard about Joe tells me the same thing that you say here Todd. Seems like a simple guy who wouldn't lie on purpose. But c'mon. You can't put out a DVD that claims 440X60 on an empty stomach with the last rep being easier than the first, and doing them every morning!!! without expecting everyone who has ever squatted to question the claim. Even 225 for 40 every morning on an empty stomach would be stretching credulity.

Again, I believe he closed the #4, this doesn't have anything to do with his gripper claims. Too many stories of people seeing him do crazy closes to not be believed. And there is video to back it up.

Maybe this is just somebody trying to take his words out of context to sell a DVD, but the squat claims seem ludicrous. Unless i am missing something. Is there any footage of him squatting?

[lifesnotfair]

Even 225 for 40 every morning on an empty stomach would be stretching credulity.

The way you train makes a huge difference. Most people here train doing 5 or 3 or 1 rep squats and expect that to translate to huge high rep squat numbers. This is why people even doubt a 225x40, this is laughable. In the CrossFit community there are guys at 160 bodyweight doing 225x50, but of course, they don't only train for strength! If you browse different strength forums, you'll see that there are a TON of doubters about Dr. Ken's 407# x23 squats. People say comments like "I squat 650 and can only do 407x10 and Dr. Ken surely was not squatting 650 so that is fake". In a particular forum, a guy named Kelso (I think he wrote a book on shrugs?) even chimed in and mentioned that Dr. Ken always said his 1RM was not that much higher than his 20RM. Weren't there big jokers about the 20 rep squat program, who said "yes, he can do 315x20 and his 1RM is 335" or something like that? .. Once you train in that way, you can do very high reps, as in the top possition of the squat you can "rest" for several seconds between every rep, and doing any type of calculation to figure out the 1RM is useless in my opinion.

That said, I don't believe for a second that Kinney did 440#x60 continous reps. However, a few people have mentioned that the set-up he uses could make the weight even 50% lighter because of using the arms., etc? ... if so, 220#x60 for a 180# man who trains in this specific manner (every day!) is not unbelievable at all, at least to me. Even a bit more than that is still believable. But not 440#, not for 60 reps without racking the bar. But if this setup makes it feel like 50% or even 60% (which would be 264#) then I can believe it for sure, regardless if a guy who only trains for max strength and has a 600# max says he can't do it.

[kelby]

i don't doubt joe kinney at all. i had ordred his video tape years ago. and the way he closed the four is scary. and the way he trained is crazy. almost not human. so, his mind is where its at. most of us who fall short of the #3 or #4 is in our minds. i know i am one of them. i am lazy, when it starts to hurt or the gripper seems hard. right away, it is too hard for me. (even though we tell ourselves we can do it. but, deep down inside our brains. we doubt ourselves.) joe kinney is one of those people, deep down inside his head. nothing is impossible for him.

as for the squat same thing goes. nothing is impossible. there are people who can squat 500 for 20 reps. not many, but some. what makes joe kinney a liar? he trained his ass off. he put his mind into it. 100 percent. something alot of us can't do.

i always wanted to close the #3. worked out for a bit. than quit. now i am back at it. wish i had the intensity like joe did. i would close the three in about a month or two.

bearcat did he ever squeeze the three infront of you. i seem to remember, you had mentioned it. awhile back. but, not sure.

[lifesnotfair]

Oh, and I forgot to say this: the empty stomach issue.... have any of you guys read about IF (Intermittent Fasting)? Do you think that historically men always had pre-workout nutrition? Like, the paleolithic man was hungry, had not eaten in a day, and had to hunt a deer or something with a primitive tool, he was like, "I need me some potatoes before doing this task"... I don't think so. I've experimented with IF and I have set many personal bests after a 17-18 hour fast. Many other crossfitters attest to the same, including ones much more advanced/strong than me. Now, if you're gonna run a 3 hour marathon, yeah, maybe you need the pre workout food... but for one set? Which could last a few minutes at most? I don't think it will make a huge difference, specially, again, if he built up to this, which apparently he did if he was doing it every morning. So again guys who have never worked out in a fasted state will do so, feel lightheaded or whatever, and say "no way!"...

[IROC-Z]

I just watched the video last night. Joe is pretty clear about what he did for squats. He says he worked up to doing one set of 60 reps every morning on an empty stomach. He stated that he worked up to 440 for reps, and he would use 540 for singles. The man seems very sincere, down to earth, and he certainly doesn't strike me as being the kind of person that likes to brag. I don't know exactly what his setup looked like, but after watching the video - I don't believe for a second that he's being untruthful.

It's amazing the way he just destroyed that #4!

He was doing a 60 rep set with 440 on an empty stomach? Maybe I'm missing something here, but this story gets wilder every time. Does JW do anything during the interview to try and get more detail or does he just let the 440 for 60 on an empty stomach comment go? Everything I have heard about Joe tells me the same thing that you say here Todd. Seems like a simple guy who wouldn't lie on purpose. But c'mon. You can't put out a DVD that claims 440X60 on an empty stomach with the last rep being easier than the first, and doing them every morning!!! without expecting everyone who has ever squatted to question the claim. Even 225 for 40 every morning on an empty stomach would be stretching credulity.

Again, I believe he closed the #4, this doesn't have anything to do with his gripper claims. Too many stories of people seeing him do crazy closes to not be believed. And there is video to back it up.

Maybe this is just somebody trying to take his words out of context to sell a DVD, but the squat claims seem ludicrous. Unless i am missing something. Is there any footage of him squatting?

This is my opinion on the squat claims. I believe that whatever type of setup Joe was using, it made 440 easier than it actually is. I also truly believe that Joe was/is an extremely strong man for his size, he has the heart of a lion, and his mental toughness is unparalleled. That's what I took from the video.

[Guest Bullitt]

Even 225 for 40 every morning on an empty stomach would be stretching credulity.

The way you train makes a huge difference. Most people here train doing 5 or 3 or 1 rep squats and expect that to translate to huge high rep squat numbers. This is why people even doubt a 225x40, this is laughable. In the CrossFit community there are guys at 160 bodyweight doing 225x50, but of course, they don't only train for strength! If you browse different strength forums, you'll see that there are a TON of doubters about Dr. Ken's 407# x23 squats. People say comments like "I squat 650 and can only do 407x10 and Dr. Ken surely was not squatting 650 so that is fake". In a particular forum, a guy named Kelso (I think he wrote a book on shrugs?) even chimed in and mentioned that Dr. Ken always said his 1RM was not that much higher than his 20RM. Weren't there big jokers about the 20 rep squat program, who said "yes, he can do 315x20 and his 1RM is 335" or something like that? .. Once you train in that way, you can do very high reps, as in the top possition of the squat you can "rest" for several seconds between every rep, and doing any type of calculation to figure out the 1RM is useless in my opinion.

That said, I don't believe for a second that Kinney did 440#x60 continous reps. However, a few people have mentioned that the set-up he uses could make the weight even 50% lighter because of using the arms., etc? ... if so, 220#x60 for a 180# man who trains in this specific manner (every day!) is not unbelievable at all, at least to me. Even a bit more than that is still believable. But not 440#, not for 60 reps without racking the bar. But if this setup makes it feel like 50% or even 60% (which would be 264#) then I can believe it for sure, regardless if a guy who only trains for max strength and has a 600# max says he can't do it.

225X40 every day before breakfast for a 40 something year old man who had just taken up squatting a couple years ago stretches credulity. You can call it laughable or not Arturo. I didn't say it was impossible or unbelievable. It is highly doubtful. Show me someone who does high rep squats like that every day and i will show you someone who is completely overtrained. There are lots of guys on this board that do high rep squats. Many have weighed in.

I'm not sure what Dr. Ken doing less weight for 1/3 the reps claimed has to do with the discussion at all so i'll leave that one alone.

If as suggested, he split these up. Used handles to help haul himself up with his arms. Was off on the weight more than a little (afterall, these were concrete slabs permanently attached to the barbell so not sure if they were weighed), and he didn't really do it every day on an empty stomach, then maybe. But that's not what's claimed according to the people who saw the video. At minimum, he claims 60 rep squats with 335 because that's what the thing weighed before he added his other homemade plates to get to 440 or whatever it really was.

Not sure again why you would call my post laughable, other than you misread it or didn't understand it, or just felt like being a jerk. Either way, I'm done with this. He didn't do it. He didn't do anything close to it. Dr. ken and his 23 reps with less weight not withstanding.

[lifesnotfair]

Bullit,

First off, sorry if it appeared I was trying to be a jerk, I wasn't. I never said your entire post in particular was laughable, but thinking that 225x40 for someone who has trained high rep squats for a few years is a hard-to-believe feat, is just not logical, as it's not such an outstanding feat (with 225#). I understand know if the world laughable is a bit offensive, sorry about that. The reason I mentioned Dr. Ken's feat was just to state the following: many people doubt high-rep claims because they think (or know, sometimes) that they have a higher 1RM than the person who did the feat, and if they can't duplicate the high rep feat, they think there is no way it ever happened. But the truth is, the stronger guy with the higher 1RM wont know what he is truly capable of until he has trained high reps for a while.. if you work up to a 600# squat by doing singles, doubles and triples, and one day out of the blue you try high reps with 405 and you can't do as many as a guy whose 1RM is 525 but has been training high-rep for 3 years... are you supossed to be VERY surprised?

That was my point, not trying to be a jerk. Now I personally have no idea about that equipment he used, but others here have claimed it can make the weight feel nearly 50% as light because of using the arms, etc. (I have no idea how that works, but it's what they said). If that is the case, then 220x60 for someone who had been working specifically at high rep squats for at least a couple of years, is not hard to believe. Even some more than that is not so unbelievable. Now, 440# is another matter.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Arturo

[djukac]

yeah i agree with arturo.225 for 40 is definitely possible, and 220 for 60, but the 440 thing, even if it is possible in some wild theories he should have gynormously freakishly enormous legs, which he doesn't.

[tselegala]

so much energy has been spent on this 440 x 60 topic...was it 60 singles? where they quarter squats? it's possible..it's not...why do we care so much? Did Milo really lift a bull?

Edited January 16, 2010 by alexis

[naturalstrength]

yeah i agree with arturo.225 for 40 is definitely possible, and 220 for 60, but the 440 thing, even if it is possible in some wild theories he should have gynormously freakishly enormous legs, which he doesn't.

Why does everyone seem to be under the assumption that strength=large muscles. Who would be a better unbraced bender, Gazza or Jay Cuttler????

(rhetorical question). So, why would someone who squats large numbers have to have California redwood's for legs????

I knew a kid several years ago who was an untrained athlete who weighed probably a buck-fifty at best and benched pressed 350 for reps. I always got scarred on windy days leaving the gym for the fear that a light breeze would blow him away to OZ!!!!

Edited January 16, 2010 by naturalstrength

[djukac]

yeah i agree with arturo.225 for 40 is definitely possible, and 220 for 60, but the 440 thing, even if it is possible in some wild theories he should have gynormously freakishly enormous legs, which he doesn't.

Why does everyone seem to be under the assumption that strength=large muscles. Who would be a better unbraced bender, Gazza or Jay Cuttler????

(rhetorical question). So, why would someone who squats large numbers have to have California redwood's for legs????

I knew a kid several years ago who was an untrained athlete who weighed probably a buck-fifty at best and benched pressed 350 for reps. I always got scarred on windy days leaving the gym for the fear that a light breeze would blow him away to OZ!!!!

Yes that's true that strength does not equal large muscles,but man 440 for 60 reps you can't do with normal legs.Yes there are cases like Bruce Lee etc etc. But even Bruce, who I believe that is the most trained athlete ever, even with his strength to bodyweight ratio he could not do 440 for 60 at Joe Kinney weight(probably).That's just my opinion.And really we created such a fuzz around this thing.I think we should leave it to rest.440 for 60 reps or not we will go on like this till forever.Unless there is a video that can back up this kind of info.

[Guest Bullitt]

Bullit,

First off, sorry if it appeared I was trying to be a jerk, I wasn't. I never said your entire post in particular was laughable, but thinking that 225x40 for someone who has trained high rep squats for a few years is a hard-to-believe feat, is just not logical, as it's not such an outstanding feat (with 225#). I understand know if the world laughable is a bit offensive, sorry about that. The reason I mentioned Dr. Ken's feat was just to state the following: many people doubt high-rep claims because they think (or know, sometimes) that they have a higher 1RM than the person who did the feat, and if they can't duplicate the high rep feat, they think there is no way it ever happened. But the truth is, the stronger guy with the higher 1RM wont know what he is truly capable of until he has trained high reps for a while.. if you work up to a 600# squat by doing singles, doubles and triples, and one day out of the blue you try high reps with 405 and you can't do as many as a guy whose 1RM is 525 but has been training high-rep for 3 years... are you supossed to be VERY surprised?

That was my point, not trying to be a jerk. Now I personally have no idea about that equipment he used, but others here have claimed it can make the weight feel nearly 50% as light because of using the arms, etc. (I have no idea how that works, but it's what they said). If that is the case, then 220x60 for someone who had been working specifically at high rep squats for at least a couple of years, is not hard to believe. Even some more than that is not so unbelievable. Now, 440# is another matter.

Sorry Arturo. I think I'm just getting grumpy in my old age. Sorry if I misinterpreted. I apologize for going off like that. All good on my end and I hope you accept my apology.

[cwdutton]

Bullit,

First off, sorry if it appeared I was trying to be a jerk, I wasn't. I never said your entire post in particular was laughable, but thinking that 225x40 for someone who has trained high rep squats for a few years is a hard-to-believe feat, is just not logical, as it's not such an outstanding feat (with 225#). I understand know if the world laughable is a bit offensive, sorry about that. The reason I mentioned Dr. Ken's feat was just to state the following: many people doubt high-rep claims because they think (or know, sometimes) that they have a higher 1RM than the person who did the feat, and if they can't duplicate the high rep feat, they think there is no way it ever happened. But the truth is, the stronger guy with the higher 1RM wont know what he is truly capable of until he has trained high reps for a while.. if you work up to a 600# squat by doing singles, doubles and triples, and one day out of the blue you try high reps with 405 and you can't do as many as a guy whose 1RM is 525 but has been training high-rep for 3 years... are you supossed to be VERY surprised?

That was my point, not trying to be a jerk. Now I personally have no idea about that equipment he used, but others here have claimed it can make the weight feel nearly 50% as light because of using the arms, etc. (I have no idea how that works, but it's what they said). If that is the case, then 220x60 for someone who had been working specifically at high rep squats for at least a couple of years, is not hard to believe. Even some more than that is not so unbelievable. Now, 440# is another matter.

Sorry Arturo. I think I'm just getting grumpy in my old age. Sorry if I misinterpreted. I apologize for going off like that. All good on my end and I hope you accept my apology.

For a minute there it sounded like Frank and I on FB man..... lol!!

[Steve B.]

Wow what a topic.

If you have the dvd he shows how he squatted.

It looked like he was useing a saftey squat type bar holding on to handles with the bar in place on his back while squatting.

Not hard for me to believe.

He sure didn't seem like a BS'er to me,just a laid back country guy.

Not to sure how deep he was going but who cares?

He was doing them for the purpose of stimulating testosterone relase and he believed it worked for him.

[lifesnotfair]

All fine by me Bullit!! No problem, so lets keep on rockin'.

[gazza]

Sometimes things just cant be explained Joes a SUPERHUMAN when it comes to gripper and thumb strength 99.9percent of the people on here could not even touch him for intensity as far as gripper workouts go his 4 close is unequalled look how easey he sets it look how easy he grinds it look at his 2 finger close in milo hes smiling look at his thumbs passing the inch from hand to hand look at his stranglehold coke can bursts etc etc no one on here and we have the best has come close to the above yet Didnt Heath say he JOE had wrists like he had never seen before also Heath said in there meet up that Joe at the end gave his hand a quick pop when they shook hands and it hurt now Heath is a 4 closer and it hurt that says to me that Joes still got masses of hand power.

Regarding the squats I think Joe is an extraordinary man Hig Mindset is similar to someone like the mighty atom its all or nothing with Joe and i no he would not sell himself short for a few sold copies of a dvd.

You cant compare him with Platz Tom was a squating machine and from early on he Tom squated all ways high rep low rep etc the same as you cant compare any grip workouts here with Joes hes at a much higher level intensity and power wise than anyone else has reached yet.

I love it when people mention the BIG guys body types work differently slow and fast twitch fibers and mind to muscle links come into play look at weight lifting the big guys are lucky to put double body weight over head were as the lighter guys can put 3 x and above over head so are the smaller guys less powerfull infact you could say there stronger at some things.

Sometimes you just cant explain things all these world class guys like Joe Kinney,the Mighty Atom,Pat Paviliatis,Dennis Rodgers,the Holle brothers all well under 200lbs all able to do stuff world class stuff that few can or cannot equal regardless of size what makes these men who they are is the mind strength nothing else the mind got them were they are and this you either have or you do not that why i think Joe has done and will do stuff that others will only ever dream off.

Most forums are great at wanting to disect scrutinise and analize every little detail but sometimes you just need to except things like there are individuals amongst us that you cant explain scrutinize or analize the things they do just cannot be explained they can just do it and when all else fails you either choose to believe or dont if you dont thats fine because in the grand scheme of things 99.9percent of people will never go onto achieveing what Joe or others have and can do because they just dont have it.

[jad]

Oh, and I forgot to say this: the empty stomach issue.... have any of you guys read about IF (Intermittent Fasting)? Do you think that historically men always had pre-workout nutrition? Like, the paleolithic man was hungry, had not eaten in a day, and had to hunt a deer or something with a primitive tool, he was like, "I need me some potatoes before doing this task"... I don't think so. I've experimented with IF and I have set many personal bests after a 17-18 hour fast. Many other crossfitters attest to the same, including ones much more advanced/strong than me. Now, if you're gonna run a 3 hour marathon, yeah, maybe you need the pre workout food... but for one set? Which could last a few minutes at most? I don't think it will make a huge difference, specially, again, if he built up to this, which apparently he did if he was doing it every morning. So again guys who have never worked out in a fasted state will do so, feel lightheaded or whatever, and say "no way!"...

I've counseled anorexics that would crush your "fasting pr".

[The Natural]

I fast 9 hours every day and it's hell.

[rico300zx]

I fast 9 hours every day and it's hell.

I can't go that long, always wake up at some point and find myself at the fridge. Oh and the squat rack is in the kitchen blocking it, with a sighn saying "no eatus untilus squatus X10"

Rico