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3.5 Credit Card Set....done!


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http://www.ironmind.com/ironcms/morenewsv6.php?id=2629#2629
Saturday, August 09, 2008

Certification: Carding the Gripper by Randall J. Strossen, Ph.D. | ©2008 IronMind

Unfortunately, as clearly as we thought these rules had been stated, some people persisted in thinking that for a legal start, the gripper first had to be crushed down to the width of a credit card, and more than one person has had the judge, rather than the gripster himself, take the measurement with the card.

Neither is what we would prefer, but just as not everyone has followed the exact directions we give for when and how to apply for certification, IronMind feels it’s most important to focus on the purpose of the rules, which in this case involves establishing that the starting position is legal, and that’s the principle we follow when making our certification decisions.

...and then follow them exactly as they are written.

Glad that's cleared that up then! :dry

What, I think, they're saying is: "by someone (anyone) inserting a CC, the spirit, if not the letter, of the law is being invoked", and if that's the case, then why not just change the rules again? It's not unprecedented.
Complaining about the IM cert just won't do too much good. It is a nice promotional tool for Ironmind and kinda neat, but if you take it too seriously you'll be in for dissappointment.

Put your energy into the MM cert if you are more inclined for a strict process.

Trouble is, outside of the GB, few know what it means to be MM3. They need more publicity.
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What, I think, they're saying is: "by someone (anyone) inserting a CC, the spirit, if not the letter, of the law is being invoked", and if that's the case, then why not just change the rules again? It's not unprecedented.

It makes it easier, not a lot, but it does make it easier. IMO, it's no different than someone setting it to parallel vs. 1" like their rules stated.

Edited by jad
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StalwartSentinel
Well this has all been a very good read, you dissapear of the board for more than 4 days and you have a lot of reading to catch up on.

I like many people on this site am irritated by the poor adherence to the official rules. theres no escaping the official rules its printed on the back of every packed COC gripper! I unfortunately have not certified yet and have had several dips in strength over the last year, but when i was at my strongest, having done MM2 and RB330N, i could CCS a 2 of my #3's the way Tex has certed the 3.5. Now i did not go for the cert as i was still seemingly miles away from being strong enough as i couldnt (not helping with smaller hands) hold the gripper and the required width long enough to clearly show the insertion of a CC, so i never contacted IM to go for the cert. Im now annoyed with myself that i didnt contact IM as if this rule about insertion of a CC doesnt have to be adhered to as strictly as i may seem, then i feel fairly strongly that i could have gained the auspicious title of captain of crush, something that i will have to wait a bit longer for. This is a bit of a moan, i know, and doesnt get me anywhere as to saying that i could have been a COC, quite a few guys on the board know how strong i was around october last year, and i think they could back me up in saying i should have certed, or pushed myself further to cert.

I enjoyed reading Teemus words on this thread, as he is extremely accurate in what he says, i like that this thread hasnt gone out of control, in that there seems to be and underlining element of respect that is of utmost importance.

The most important thing now to happen is for the rule maker , to give an official response. If the rules stand, there can only really be one right response from Dr Strossen and that is an apology for the mistake, then a statement saying that Tex will repeat the cert attempt, and im sure he is strong enough to do the cert correctly. Or Dr Strossen will adjust the rules officially to allow this part of the cert where a CC can be inserted by someone else to be made official, website should then be changed and packaging of grippers should be changed. If the latter happens, in my view and indeed as discussed by TimT a couple of pages back, seriously affects the integrity of the whole IM cert, will the rules continue to be modified etc etc..

I like many others will just have to watch this space closely.

One more thing to add which i should have said right at the start of my 2cents, is to Tex: i saw the video and i will say extremely strong close, you show tremendous power, a big congrats for that feat, but good luck in achieving the feat under the correct and official guidelines.

Pete

Pete, here's the RESPONSE

Certification: Carding the Gripper by Randall J. Strossen, Ph.D. | ©2008 IronMind

When IronMind introduced what has been called “the credit card rule,” it had a very straightforward purpose: In view of the shrinking starting position some guys were using before they closed grippers, IronMind wanted to establish a definite minimum standard that was acceptable for certifying official closes with the hardest of the Captains of Crush® Grippers.

That minimum acceptable starting position was defined as the width of a credit/ATM card, since that had all the qualities we needed in a useful gauge that would define a legal starting position. As part of the rule, we also wrote that the gripster must show that he has a legal starting position by sliding the card between the ends of the handles before getting the go signal from the referee.

Unfortunately, as clearly as we thought these rules had been stated, some people persisted in thinking that for a legal start, the gripper first had to be crushed down to the width of a credit card, and more than one person has had the judge, rather than the gripster himself, take the measurement with the card.

Neither is what we would prefer, but just as not everyone has followed the exact directions we give for when and how to apply for certification, IronMind feels it’s most important to focus on the purpose of the rules, which in this case involves establishing that the starting position is legal, and that’s the principle we follow when making our certification decisions.

Still, it’s easy to understand why questions will arise when the exact letter of the procedures is not followed and IronMind continues to urge people who are involved in certifications to take a few minutes to read the rules, asking us questions if something is unclear, and then follow them exactly as they are written.

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StalwartSentinel

How much time had passed between IronMind announcing a new #3.5 Cert and Big Tex actually certifying? It seems a very quick turn around to get the gripper sent and all. I personally think it was always intended to have him be the first, no matter what. :dry

EDIT: Tuesday July 29, 2008 http://www.ironmind.com/ironcms/morenewsv6.php?id=2611#2611 :blush was the announcement and Richard posted the video Aug 5 2008, 02:35 PM. 7 days, start to finish. I suppose that's possible? Are all Cert requests that swift in execution?

Edited by StalwartSentinel
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PowerHouse

All that I took away from Strossen's responce is " You dont have to follow all the rules to get cert'ed........ just 90% of em."

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Pancake Sprawl

i think that who ever holds it part of the rule is just semantics, it seems he just put the "gripster should hold it" part of the rule in there so people won't get confused (so much for not confused lol) he wasn't really thinking about people complaining about someone else holding it. to him the MOST important part of the rule is that the card gets inserted in between the handles.

Edited by Pancake Sprawl
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Ah well thats that then, i wonder if someone else had tried to cert before not following the CC rule to the letter like Tex has done , if they would have been passed, i guess we'll never know.

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bencrush
How much time had passed between IronMind announcing a new #3.5 Cert and Big Tex actually certifying? It seems a very quick turn around to get the gripper sent and all. I personally think it was always intended to have him be the first, no matter what. :dry

EDIT: Tuesday July 29, 2008 http://www.ironmind.com/ironcms/morenewsv6.php?id=2611#2611 :blush was the announcement and Richard posted the video Aug 5 2008, 02:35 PM. 7 days, start to finish. I suppose that's possible? Are all Cert requests that swift in execution?

I don't believe ANY Ironmind COC cert has ever been this fast. But it usually takes time to find an impartial witness and get everything set up. Speeds it up when you don't have to find one of those.

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Who else would get to have one of your training partners be your judge, I say nobody else would and they shouldn't no matter who it is. Its impossible for someone who you train with to be impartial about things. This is not meant to say anything against Richard or Tex either its just about the rules being fair for and equal for each person.

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Pancake Sprawl
Who else would get to have one of your training partners be your judge, I say nobody else would and they shouldn't no matter who it is. Its impossible for someone who you train with to be impartial about things. This is not meant to say anything against Richard or Tex either its just about the rules being fair for and equal for each person.

a picture is a thousand words.

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This doesn't suprise me at all. Here's an idea guys, let Tex be the ONLY person on the list. Consider the COC certs "out of style" if you will. John Beatty will be marketing grippers real soon and I doubt this will ever be an issue with him.

No offense because I have a few COC grippers and like them. They are nothing special compared the the Tetting grippers I have but I do like them. It just amazes me how many people on this board seem to dislike Ironmind and I can say I can understand the sentiment with some of the remarks Randal has made - but then they go on and aspire to be on Ironmind's list. Kinda like buying somebody's book you don't like so you can tear it up and stomp on the pieces. They still got your money at the end of the day.

I'm neutral towards Ironmind. Certing with them on anything means nothing to me at this point. It may later but right now no. On the flip side I don't hate them either but when the rules were intentionally written with words like "the free hand" and such, it sounds to me like it was intended from the get go for the person certing to have to deal with their own card. Why else would the judge need to give the signal? I always thought it sounded hard to hold the card there properly yourself and wait for someone to give the signal and remove it. Having someone else wave it through the handles sounds like it doesn't tax your endurance as much.

Only thing I don't like is if you go back to some of Ironmind's comments such as "pretending to be stronger than you are" and such concerning deep sets, and then to go and pull this. Is not holding your own card then "pretending to be stronger than you are" as well?

Again, I mean none of this towards Richard or Tex because they both are incredibly strong and seem to be honorable people who were only following the verbal rules they were given so it's not them.

Best of luck to all.

Tim

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I think people have been to quick to criticize IM or Strossen about the matter, as I am under the impression he just was not fully aware of all the sides of this discussion.

This discussion has went into way I did not intend it to go in some ways and feel my words have been misinterpreted. Maybe it's not a language barrier as my written english is pretty fluent but I feel a some kind of cultural barrier none the less, that prevents me from understanding all the finer nyances of communication that seems common in english. So I have noted how I don't always manage to please people with what I have to say and that has resulted in frustrating misinterpretations and I may have insulted other people without ever intending to do so. As I'm born and raised in Finland, finnish is my first language. I have learned through the years that for many foreigners the language we speak seems rude as they begin to understand it, without understanding the culture. The way of speaking directly can be traced there. In finnish language the talk especially between men is very straightforward, allowing for more direct expression of differing views, without it beeing taken as rude. Personally I sometimes find myself incapable of expressing my view in a way that could be considered delicate and polite in english speaking countries. I have once again noticed how all this can lead to trouble at times.

My purpose was not to offend anyone personally. It was the actions that could be seen on videos I wanted to discuss. Actions that in my mind raised questions.

Edited by Teemu I
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I think people have been to quick to criticize IM or Strossen about the matter, as I am under the impression he just was not fully aware of all the sides of this discussion.

This discussion has went into way I did not intend it to go in some ways and feel my words have been misinterpreted. Maybe it's not a language barrier as my written english is pretty fluent but I feel a some kind of cultural barrier none the less, that prevents me from understanding all the finer nyances of communication that seems common in english. So I have noted how I don't always manage to please people with what I have to say and that has resulted in frustrating misinterpretations and I may have insulted other people without ever intending to do so. As I'm born and raised in Finland, finnish is my first language. I have learned through the years that for many foreigners the language we speak seems rude as they begin to understand it, without understanding the culture. The way of speaking directly can be traced there. In finnish language the talk especially between men is very straightforward, allowing for more direct expression of differing views, without it beeing taken as rude. Personally I sometimes find myself incapable of expressing my view in a way that could be considered delicate and polite in english speaking countries. I have once again noticed how all this can lead to trouble at times.

My purpose was not to offend anyone personally. It was the actions that could be seen on videos I wanted to discuss. Actions that in my mind raised questions.

Temmu, your English is better than most us guys that ARE English. :D

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Teemu,

I don't think your posts caused any harm at all. Like I said, I'm neutral in all this because I don't do much gripper work, I'm just going off what I've read in many, many posts throughout the board. There have been many criticisms of Ironmind on how they handle certs and I've not been one of them. My suggestions are based on what I've read from recent posts and posts that are years old. There are many old complaints about Ironmind changing the rules on grippers and even the red nail cert so why put so much stock in them if people feel that way? That's all I'm saying, I'm not saying I feel that way because I really don't care one way or another. I don't care about a red nail cert and I can't close a #3 gripper right now so that's not an issue either.

I will say I can understand past frustrations. To me the certs should have been separated when the new rules were in place. Same with the red nail. Early certs used leather and now they can't.

Oh well, Ironmind certs are what they are and if a person wants to cert with them then you play by their rules and if you don't then just ignore the whole situation and concentrate on another cert.

Later guys!

Tim

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bencrush
Oh well, Ironmind certs are what they are and if a person wants to cert with them then you play by their rules and if you don't then just ignore the whole situation and concentrate on another cert.

Great point Tim! One I've been thinking a lot about recently too. Money speaks louder than words. If a company wants to constantly talk smack about the same people who buy its products, that company can fall on its head. And other companies that actually support their customers and treat them with respect will garner that lost business. A great lesson in how NOT to run a business.

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Temmu, your English is better than most us guys that ARE English. :D
Damn straight! :rock
How much time had passed between IronMind announcing a new #3.5 Cert and Big Tex actually certifying? It seems a very quick turn around to get the gripper sent and all. I personally think it was always intended to have him be the first, no matter what. :dry

EDIT: Tuesday July 29, 2008 http://www.ironmind.com/ironcms/morenewsv6.php?id=2611#2611 :blush was the announcement and Richard posted the video Aug 5 2008, 02:35 PM. 7 days, start to finish. I suppose that's possible? Are all Cert requests that swift in execution?

I think Mr Sorin's said before that he has a stash of unopened grippers that Randy has said he can use for certs, so Tex doesn't have to wait for a gripper to be sent out, that plus having an impartial judge readilly available makes for a speedy cert process.
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I think people have been to quick to criticize IM or Strossen about the matter, as I am under the impression he just was not fully aware of all the sides of this discussion.

This discussion has went into way I did not intend it to go in some ways and feel my words have been misinterpreted. Maybe it's not a language barrier as my written english is pretty fluent but I feel a some kind of cultural barrier none the less, that prevents me from understanding all the finer nyances of communication that seems common in english. So I have noted how I don't always manage to please people with what I have to say and that has resulted in frustrating misinterpretations and I may have insulted other people without ever intending to do so. As I'm born and raised in Finland, finnish is my first language. I have learned through the years that for many foreigners the language we speak seems rude as they begin to understand it, without understanding the culture. The way of speaking directly can be traced there. In finnish language the talk especially between men is very straightforward, allowing for more direct expression of differing views, without it beeing taken as rude. Personally I sometimes find myself incapable of expressing my view in a way that could be considered delicate and polite in english speaking countries. I have once again noticed how all this can lead to trouble at times.

My purpose was not to offend anyone personally. It was the actions that could be seen on videos I wanted to discuss. Actions that in my mind raised questions.

Teemu your English is excellent and I think your straightforward communication is refreshing. I'm told I'm too direct, perhaps I would do better with more Finnish friends :D I for one am quick to criticize IM/Randy because he's talked so much crap about the rules and how people weren't following them and he wasn't going to let the process get watered down on his watch. Then when an easier version of what's supposed to go down, happens on video and he doesn't back up all his talk...yeah, people are going to get upset. The fact that Richard and Randy and Tex all seem to be friends makes it seem like they're getting special treatment. It will be interesting to see if others are able to have their witness insert the card or if the rules will actually be enforced. As you said, having the witness hold the card makes it easier and Randy thinking the cert was still "in the spirit" just once again proves his armchair expertise on the grippers. I have no doubt that Tex, when fresh, could do it the right way. Tex's strength is not the issue, IM's everchanging rules are. If the rules didn't specifically list that the gripster had to insert his own card I would be on the opposite end of this argument and praising Tex for using optimal technique.

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boland magyar

if i was tex i would want to cert again as this topic will always be hanging over his head.

he has the strength to do the cert as per the rules, so come on big man you have a voice in this :D

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StalwartSentinel
How much time had passed between IronMind announcing a new #3.5 Cert and Big Tex actually certifying? It seems a very quick turn around to get the gripper sent and all. I personally think it was always intended to have him be the first, no matter what. :dry

EDIT: Tuesday July 29, 2008 http://www.ironmind.com/ironcms/morenewsv6.php?id=2611#2611 :blush was the announcement and Richard posted the video Aug 5 2008, 02:35 PM. 7 days, start to finish. I suppose that's possible? Are all Cert requests that swift in execution?

I think Mr Sorin's said before that he has a stash of unopened grippers that Randy has said he can use for certs, so Tex doesn't have to wait for a gripper to be sent out, that plus having an impartial judge readilly available makes for a speedy cert process.

I thought IronMind had to SEND you the new Cert gripper (which you opened on camera or in front of the witness) otherwise people could tamper with the process and put an easy "foot-stomped-by-Timmy" gripper in the package? IronMind should now send the Cert Card to be used, with the gripper too.

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StalwartSentinel
1. Contact IronMind Enterprises, Inc. at sales@ironmind.com

or at 530-272-3579 and let us know that you are ready to be

certified. We will ask you if you can readily close the gripper

and we’ll take your name and address. We will then find a

judge/witness who is in your area to verify the closing, and

notify you of that person’s name and contact information.

This may take several days. You will contact the judge, who

will be expecting to hear from you, and set up a mutually

convenient time to get together. We will send the judge a brand

new Captains of Crush Gripper for you to use for your closing.

Your judge will open the gripper in your presence, and you are

welcome to do a few warm-up reps on it before

going for your close.

Note: Please contact us only when you are ready to be judged—that is, please hold off if you are a quarter-inch away, or you maybe closed your gripper once, as we cannot line up your judge/witness unless you are ready to be officially witnessed.

Also, please do not line up your own judge as we will not be able to use the information. One of the ways we maintain the integrity of the certification process is by using objective, credible contacts to be witnesses.

Richard is credible, but not objective. Also, if Richard used one of his own stock grippers, then that violates #1.

I'm waiting for the CoC #3.25 and CoC #3.75 Certs to come along now... we might see this all clear up by then. ;):yikes

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From previous posts it seems that there has been some bad blood between Ironmind and the Gripboard, where does it come from? Can anyone post a link to comments made by Ironmind against the Gripboard?

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Gentlemen, While I am a great supporter of the freedom of speech I do have concern when critical remarks are made directly or indirectly about me. I do not stay at my home base but travel nation wide to attend and support the efforts of the strength community which I have been for the past 45 years. Friends... I have many, nation and world wide at both advanced and normal levels of strength success .They, with all those in the grip world I DO consider my friends. I feel many comments have been made those who choose to remain at home and find pleasure in attacking anothers credibility without ever being present or knowing or caring enough to get the whole story. There have been accusations thrown out that if I wanted, to drag others in to my defense... I could. Comments of how close I was to the close, If the gripper 3.5 was correctly requested, if it was sent directly by Ironmind,if I was requested in writing to be a judge are easily provable by Emails and photos we have. I am wondering where the many of you out there that are reading this and HAVE been to events with me observing certifications and live judging and all that comes with it haven't stepped forward because the truth lies with you. Might you be the next to be set upon? I have supported the efforts of Tex and other strongmen for the true love of the sport and yes , I do have a large facility that does allow others to see, feel, and try items of strength others may never get to enjoy if we closed our door and if that is wrong, what can I say? I do not and have not ever "trained " with Tex even though at times we are working our OWN programs in different times or areas in my place. He is, as you all are always welcome and while I do see him do things and give him far less coaching than I have done for many we never train lifting OR grip together so please, because it DOES matter get your information straight before you speak and I will show you the same courtesy. If you do have something to say good or bad please feel free to call or write me personally and, as I do sign your name to your statement so I have the pleasure to know just who I am speaking to. In any case I intend to go on supporting grip and this very board in which you find my efforts lacking. I wish everyone the best of luck. Many thanks, Sincerely, Richard Sorin

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