3.5 Credit Card Set....done!

[Bob Lipinski]

I don't have an opinion either way, but I think that since Sorin was the witness it will stand no matter what.

[bencrush]

BTW: Does anyone remember how the rules were when I certed in '04? I didn't place the card between the handles then, there was someone else who did it.

I certified in 2005 and I held the card. It didn't occur to me back then to have someone else do it. And if it had been on my mind then I think I would've known I wasn't yet strong enough if it had to be a team effort.

[lloyd80s]

If Tex's cert is voided then so must Sorins second #3 cert be.

Both guys look strong enough to cert on the grippers they tried respectivly, although rules are rules.

The desision will be left to strossen, although I have the feeling that some people are viewed by strossen in a different light to us keyboard guys I was also under the impression that you needed to clearly hold the card in the gripper for a witness to see that it was in clearly?

I must add that as I'm working on nailing the #3 cert myself and having trouble faffing about trying to hold the gripper while i get the card in. Shall I stop trying now as I can get a mate to put the card in for me??

I think I'll work on TNS only from now on and slam the handles shut on all grippers with a TNS, nothing can be said then when I cert.

[gazza]

Maybe Ironmind will change it to TTCI close tag team card insert close

[Florian Kellersmann]

Makes me wonder of all the other certifications in the past we never saw a video of.

[Alawadhi]

I think I'll work on TNS only from now on and slam the handles shut on all grippers with a TNS, nothing can be said then when I cert.

According to Randy, no you can't just just TNS. I remember reading on IM the TNS can be used for the cert only if there was a CC inserted between the handles to show it is at least a CC set .

Chris Mathison I agree with you that we should use judgment but like I said before Randy always go by the rules. So even in this cert he should also go by the rule. Examples of following the rules:-

You can't just use TNS, TNS with CC between the handles to at least show it is CC set or more.

You can't use rubber bands on IM pads on the Red nail cert! (what the heck, rubber bands will only holds the pads which doesn't make it easier but having someone else to insert a card will make it a bit easier).

Teemu was rejected (the one before his last cert attempt) on his cert because he didn't use a new gripper.

There are more examples I can give. I thought Randy always went with his " spirit of the challenge" ?

Here are good examples of following the rules:-

Paul "viper" closed David Horne vulcan gripper level 18 CC set easily but he couldn't get his cert because he held the gripper wrong way. Everyone follows it.

David Horne won't accept bending braced steel when your knee's are on a chair or something similar. Also everyone follows it.

John beatty won't accept my cert as a shiny bastard bender if I bend a 5/16 stainless steel. Although the steel is the same. It requires similar strength, but rules are rules. And he make everyone follow them with no exception.

[shizen]

Makes me wonder of all the other certifications in the past we never saw a video of.

yes does make you wonder

[Teemu I]

Hello All,

I have read with much interest the drama that appears to be unfolding regarding this issue.

Maybe we all need to sit down and have a cup of tea and put it into perspective?

Tex Henderson is the first man to officially close the COC3.5 with a credit card set - that is a fact - the attempt started with a credit card width between the handles and at the end of the attempt the handles were touching, that is a fact.

If anyone on this site thinks that they can do it better, then put your "C**k on the Block" and do it, don't talk about it - actions speak louder than words, and words, once said, can never be taken back!

It doesn't matter who else has closed whatever gripper, it's about your own personal struggle to achieve your own goals - so maybe it's time to get back to the very thing that got you onto this site in the first place - training grip.

The past is History,

The future is a mystery,

And the present is a gift - that's why it's called the present.

We should all live our own lives and try to make our own marks - while we can.

Train hard and stay healthy,

Laine

As I was the first to bring this whole thing up, I will reply to you.

As I have said, nothing can take it away from Tex that he has great grip strength. I do hope this is handled so that he is given a new chance to show his strength by the rules. I also wish him all the best and would want to see him certify on the #4 eventually, as he he must be closer to that than almost anybody else.

It remains to be seen if I can do it any better (close the #3.5) but that's not the point. Even if I could do it better I would not want it to count if it was not done right, justified by saying well he is strong enough to do it anyway.

As for bringing it forth, or letting actions speak for themselves, I have my cert attempt on the #3.5 scheduled on the 27th of September, it will be on the same day as Finnish Grip Championships. There's always a chance I might not be able to close that gripper then. But even if I faced a failure, I would still feel better about myself knowing that I did it right. Whatever the outcome, I am going for it with humble mind and awareness of the rules, will and respect to follow them and a drive to do my best within them. If I fail, some of you might think what a clown, but I would still know it in my heart that I did my best and would just try it again as many times it takes. Even if it took me 10 tries I would want to do it right.

I respect strength when I see it and I'm not trying to make Tex look bad here. Even more than strength, I respect integrity and a strive to do the things right.

Whatever the reason for this failure to follow the rules, the way this was handled doesn't look good. I try to think positive and not to expect bad from people, but when things aren't done right it makes you think about the motives or reasons. I'd like to believe the way these two certs were done was not intentional "let's bend the rules a bit"-type of idea. At best it was just plain sloppiness, but that in itself isn't the way to go about things in my opinion.

As for a personal struggle, this will have no effect whatsoever to my goals and this is not taking anything away from my training. I agree with making your own marks, but these certs are a one form of competition in my mind. The lists are there to write your marks in the grip history. I do not like the idea of some people staining others accomplishments by bending the rules or getting away easily. It's just that when there's goals common for us and rules written to make those goals as uniform as possible for all, it just doesn't feel right if those rules aren't the same to everyone. Maybe I have too competitive mind or something, but as honourable thing it would be to me to be on the list of those who have certified on the #3.5, I feel there's less honour if the certs aren't handled strict and some people might get on that list easier than others. Somebody might bring it up that as grippers vary that's going to be the case anyway, but that argument doesn't justify any rule bends, as the rules are their to make it as fair as it can with this IM certification process. The odds of getting a hard or easy gripper out of the package are the same for everyone.

I do realize I can't take anything back that I've said, but thinking about it I don't have any regrets about what I've said.

Edited August 8, 2008 by Teemu I

[Florian Kellersmann]

Teemu, I'm sure the big majority (me included) of the grip strength community totally understands your points and is with you.

[Teemu I]

Teemu, I'm sure the big majority (me included) of the grip strength community totally understands your points and is with you.

Good, I also hope this is not understood wrong and taken as whining from some jealous punk.

To Steve: the reason I did not contact Strossen about this and will not do so is my view, that if Sorin is a man of integrity I want to believe he is and acts as would be expected from the first CoC, who is himself often stressing the importance of doing the things right (not tilting the blob etc etc), would contact Strossen himself and ask to pull back these certs. If he doesn't, that's not the end of my world. If he does, much respect to him.

[jad]

Hello All,

I have read with much interest the drama that appears to be unfolding regarding this issue.

Maybe we all need to sit down and have a cup of tea and put it into perspective?

Tex Henderson is the first man to officially close the COC3.5 with a credit card set - that is a fact - the attempt started with a credit card width between the handles and at the end of the attempt the handles were touching, that is a fact.

If anyone on this site thinks that they can do it better, then put your "C**k on the Block" and do it, don't talk about it - actions speak louder than words, and words, once said, can never be taken back!

It doesn't matter who else has closed whatever gripper, it's about your own personal struggle to achieve your own goals - so maybe it's time to get back to the very thing that got you onto this site in the first place - training grip.

The past is History,

The future is a mystery,

And the present is a gift - that's why it's called the present.

We should all live our own lives and try to make our own marks - while we can.

Train hard and stay healthy,

Laine

No, he didn't, that is what the last several pages of this thread are about. His close was great but since he didn't follow the "official" rules, he is not the first man to "officially" close it.

[lloyd80s]

I'm with you 100% on this issue Temmu.

I'd just like to add, as the whole #3.5 cert thing has become a bit of a race to be first on the list, I think as Tex has had a go and needs to try again with the correct rules. Maybe someone else could get on the list first if they get a crack at the #3.5 cert before Tex get his next shot. I'm sure he wont be taken off the list though. I'm my opinion if Tex and his witness and all of the other people witnessing the cert attempt failed to read the cert rules then I think someone else should get a shot before he gets another go.

I'm not having a pop at Richard Sorin here but it does shock me that someone as experianced in grip and grippers as him fails to know the rules on certification on COC grippers. Either he doesn't know the rules or has chosen to ignore them. I'm sure as a man of integrity that Richard has just failed to pick up on the finer points of the CCS rule.

All said, Tex and Richard are both strong guys and I'm sure they'll both be able to close their cert grippers under cert rules with no problem.....and good luck to them, nobody wants to see anyone fail a cert attempt.

[LAINE SNOOK]

Hello All,

I have read with much interest the drama that appears to be unfolding regarding this issue.

Maybe we all need to sit down and have a cup of tea and put it into perspective?

Tex Henderson is the first man to officially close the COC3.5 with a credit card set - that is a fact - the attempt started with a credit card width between the handles and at the end of the attempt the handles were touching, that is a fact.

If anyone on this site thinks that they can do it better, then put your "C**k on the Block" and do it, don't talk about it - actions speak louder than words, and words, once said, can never be taken back!

It doesn't matter who else has closed whatever gripper, it's about your own personal struggle to achieve your own goals - so maybe it's time to get back to the very thing that got you onto this site in the first place - training grip.

The past is History,

The future is a mystery,

And the present is a gift - that's why it's called the present.

We should all live our own lives and try to make our own marks - while we can.

Train hard and stay healthy,

Laine

As I was the first to bring this whole thing up, I will reply to you.

As I have said, nothing can take it away from Tex that he has great grip strength. I do hope this is handled so that he is given a new chance to show his strength by the rules. I also wish him all the best and would want to see him certify on the #4 eventually, as he he must be closer to that than almost anybody else.

It remains to be seen if I can do it any better (close the #3.5) but that's not the point. Even if I could do it better I would not want it to count if it was not done right, justified by saying well he is strong enough to do it anyway.

As for bringing it forth, or letting actions speak for themselves, I have my cert attempt on the #3.5 scheduled on the 27th of September, it will be on the same day as Finnish Grip Championships. There's always a chance I might not be able to close that gripper then. But even if I faced a failure, I would still feel better about myself knowing that I did it right. Whatever the outcome, I am going for it with humble mind and awareness of the rules, will and respect to follow them and a drive to do my best within them. If I fail, some of you might think what a clown, but I would still know it in my heart that I did my best and would just try it again as many times it takes. Even if it took me 10 tries I would want to do it right.

I respect strength when I see it and I'm not trying to make Tex look bad here. Even more than strength, I respect integrity and a strive to do the things right.

Whatever the reason for this failure to follow the rules, the way this was handled doesn't look good. I try to think positive and not to expect bad from people, but when things aren't done right it makes you think about the motives or reasons. I'd like to believe the way these two certs were done was not intentional "let's bend the rules a bit"-type of idea. At best it was just plain sloppiness, but that in itself isn't the way to go about things in my opinion.

As for a personal struggle, this will have no effect whatsoever to my goals and this is not taking anything away from my training. I agree with making your own marks, but these certs are a one form of competition in my mind. The lists are there to write your marks in the grip history. I do not like the idea of some people staining others accomplishments by bending the rules or getting away easily. It's just that when there's goals common for us and rules written to make those goals as uniform as possible for all, it just doesn't feel right if those rules aren't the same to everyone. Maybe I have too competitive mind or something, but as honourable thing it would be to me to be on the list of those who have certified on the #3.5, I feel there's less honour if the certs aren't handled strict and some people might get on that list easier than others. Somebody might bring it up that as grippers vary that's going to be the case anyway, but that argument doesn't justify any rule bends, as the rules are their to make it as fair as it can with this IM certification process. The odds of getting a hard or easy gripper out of the package are the same for everyone.

I do realize I can't take anything back that I've said, but thinking about it I don't have any regrets about what I've said.

Teemu,

Very well thought out words that command alot of respect from all who read them.

I am sure that the issue will run and run, and may never be sorted out to everyones or anyones liking. Time will tell.

I wish you the best of luck in your attempt on the COC3.5, I hope that you are successful in your quest to reach your goal, where you will be on the list is something that remains to be seen. What you have shown to us all is your conviction to do things right, and that speaks volumes about your qualities as a man.

You have my greatest respect, Sir.

Laine

[lloyd80s]

Err must also be said that if Strossen made the rules for COC certification then-

1) He can't have watched the video of the close, if so why is Tex on the list.

2) He has seen the video but forgets his own cert rules.

3) He's seen the video, remembers his cert rules, but turns a blind if if he likes you

Err help, I'm having trouble getting all this mess sorted out in my mind.

[Teemu I]

Hello All,

I have read with much interest the drama that appears to be unfolding regarding this issue.

Maybe we all need to sit down and have a cup of tea and put it into perspective?

Tex Henderson is the first man to officially close the COC3.5 with a credit card set - that is a fact - the attempt started with a credit card width between the handles and at the end of the attempt the handles were touching, that is a fact.

If anyone on this site thinks that they can do it better, then put your "C**k on the Block" and do it, don't talk about it - actions speak louder than words, and words, once said, can never be taken back!

It doesn't matter who else has closed whatever gripper, it's about your own personal struggle to achieve your own goals - so maybe it's time to get back to the very thing that got you onto this site in the first place - training grip.

The past is History,

The future is a mystery,

And the present is a gift - that's why it's called the present.

We should all live our own lives and try to make our own marks - while we can.

Train hard and stay healthy,

Laine

As I was the first to bring this whole thing up, I will reply to you.

As I have said, nothing can take it away from Tex that he has great grip strength. I do hope this is handled so that he is given a new chance to show his strength by the rules. I also wish him all the best and would want to see him certify on the #4 eventually, as he he must be closer to that than almost anybody else.

It remains to be seen if I can do it any better (close the #3.5) but that's not the point. Even if I could do it better I would not want it to count if it was not done right, justified by saying well he is strong enough to do it anyway.

As for bringing it forth, or letting actions speak for themselves, I have my cert attempt on the #3.5 scheduled on the 27th of September, it will be on the same day as Finnish Grip Championships. There's always a chance I might not be able to close that gripper then. But even if I faced a failure, I would still feel better about myself knowing that I did it right. Whatever the outcome, I am going for it with humble mind and awareness of the rules, will and respect to follow them and a drive to do my best within them. If I fail, some of you might think what a clown, but I would still know it in my heart that I did my best and would just try it again as many times it takes. Even if it took me 10 tries I would want to do it right.

I respect strength when I see it and I'm not trying to make Tex look bad here. Even more than strength, I respect integrity and a strive to do the things right.

Whatever the reason for this failure to follow the rules, the way this was handled doesn't look good. I try to think positive and not to expect bad from people, but when things aren't done right it makes you think about the motives or reasons. I'd like to believe the way these two certs were done was not intentional "let's bend the rules a bit"-type of idea. At best it was just plain sloppiness, but that in itself isn't the way to go about things in my opinion.

As for a personal struggle, this will have no effect whatsoever to my goals and this is not taking anything away from my training. I agree with making your own marks, but these certs are a one form of competition in my mind. The lists are there to write your marks in the grip history. I do not like the idea of some people staining others accomplishments by bending the rules or getting away easily. It's just that when there's goals common for us and rules written to make those goals as uniform as possible for all, it just doesn't feel right if those rules aren't the same to everyone. Maybe I have too competitive mind or something, but as honourable thing it would be to me to be on the list of those who have certified on the #3.5, I feel there's less honour if the certs aren't handled strict and some people might get on that list easier than others. Somebody might bring it up that as grippers vary that's going to be the case anyway, but that argument doesn't justify any rule bends, as the rules are their to make it as fair as it can with this IM certification process. The odds of getting a hard or easy gripper out of the package are the same for everyone.

I do realize I can't take anything back that I've said, but thinking about it I don't have any regrets about what I've said.

Teemu,

Very well thought out words that command alot of respect from all who read them.

I am sure that the issue will run and run, and may never be sorted out to everyones or anyones liking. Time will tell.

I wish you the best of luck in your attempt on the COC3.5, I hope that you are successful in your quest to reach your goal, where you will be on the list is something that remains to be seen. What you have shown to us all is your conviction to do things right, and that speaks volumes about your qualities as a man.

You have my greatest respect, Sir.

Laine

Thank you for the nice words Laine, my respect goes to you and towards other people in general too. I did hope to clarify my point of view with this. I was hoping when the video was not yet to be seen that everything would look fine about this cert and I hated the idea of bringing it up when I saw the video. But I felt I had to put in my thoughts so that these type of discussions around these certs could possibly be avoided completely in the future. I really haven't enjoyed all this, I just felt it had to be discussed. If everyone just did the things the right way it would be more pleasant to us all.

You are right, it remains to be seen how all this turns out. I hope it turns out for the best for everyone.

Good luck with your training as well!

Edited August 8, 2008 by Teemu I

[acorn]

Err must also be said that if Strossen made the rules for COC certification then-

1) He can't have watched the video of the close, if so why is Tex on the list.

2) He has seen the video but forgets his own cert rules.

3) He's seen the video, remembers his cert rules, but turns a blind if if he likes you

Err help, I'm having trouble getting all this mess sorted out in my mind.

You must remember a video is not a requirement for the IM certs. The power to approve or disapprove of an attempt is really placed in the hands of the witness. An impartial witness that IM picks. It is a quite different process than the Mashmonster certs in that respect. For the MM certs the video evidence is the only thing that really matters in determining whether you closed it or not.

- Aaron

[lloyd80s]

Err must also be said that if Strossen made the rules for COC certification then-

1) He can't have watched the video of the close, if so why is Tex on the list.

2) He has seen the video but forgets his own cert rules.

3) He's seen the video, remembers his cert rules, but turns a blind if if he likes you

Err help, I'm having trouble getting all this mess sorted out in my mind.

You must remember a video is not a requirement for the IM certs. The power to approve or disapprove of an attempt is really placed in the hands of the witness. An impartial witness that IM picks. It is a quite different process than the Mashmonster certs in that respect. For the MM certs the video evidence is the only thing that really matters in determining whether you closed it or not.

- Aaron

I know ironmind don't need video evidence of a close but because of all the attention this close has generated I'm sure strossen had a look at the video of the close. I maybe wrong but I bet he's seen it.

[Teemu I]

Err must also be said that if Strossen made the rules for COC certification then-

1) He can't have watched the video of the close, if so why is Tex on the list.

2) He has seen the video but forgets his own cert rules.

3) He's seen the video, remembers his cert rules, but turns a blind if if he likes you

Err help, I'm having trouble getting all this mess sorted out in my mind.

You must remember a video is not a requirement for the IM certs. The power to approve or disapprove of an attempt is really placed in the hands of the witness. An impartial witness that IM picks. It is a quite different process than the Mashmonster certs in that respect. For the MM certs the video evidence is the only thing that really matters in determining whether you closed it or not.

- Aaron

I know ironmind don't need video evidence of a close but because of all the attention this close has generated I'm sure strossen had a look at the video of the close. I maybe wrong but I bet he's seen it.

That we can't know, so that is irrelevant in this discussion. We know only what we saw on video/videos. Aaron is right.

[lukeamdman]

I agree with Teemu. It's the first thing I noticed when watching the video.

I'm not a big fan of Strossen, and this doesn't help. If this is how loose the rules are I have no incentive to get certified by IM.

[kilkkinen]

I agree with Teemu 100%. No credit card set by the rules and Sorin is about 5m away, when Tex closed the gripper :/

[Hubgeezer]

In IronMind News on June 26 on their website, Dr. Strossen had a long discussion of "new rules and old rules". I did not want to bring this up, because parts of the discussion are almost hostile. At the very end of the piece, he talks about the requirement that the gripper handles be at least the width of a credit card apart. It implied that one did not have to do insert it themself.

At that time, I was tempted to email him and ask for clarification about it, but I didn't. It also implied that one could do a TNS as well. The reason I did not contact him is because I personally failed at a Certification attempt earlier that month, and my asking about rules would just make me look petty.

I am one of very few people who had Randy as my witness for a Certification attempt, which was extremely close. My son thought it was closed on two of my 4 attempts (not exactly an impartial party), and my brother later produced a photo (which I don't plan on sharing because what is the point) that indicated that it may have been closed on one of my attempts that was not my strongest one (but, my hand was resting on my leg, which Randy pointed out at the time, would have been bracing). Overall, Randy seemed to want to give it to me, but he was relying on his camera more than the witnessing of the attempt itself. It did not "feel" closed to me, so as far as I was concerned it was not a close. No sour grapes here.

The point to this diatribe is that the one thing that he seems to be a real stickler on is whether or not it is closed all the way. I administrated my own card, but did not wait for an "okay" signal to remove it, as it was pretty obvious it was there. I think he leaves much to the actual witness, and stands by what their call is. No Instant Replay, no overturning, etc. My case was different than that, because he was the witness, and he was looking at the camera display after each attempt. I get the impression that normally his picking the witness may be the most important part of the process, as it removes the whole thing from his hands, as well as from the person going for the certification.

In retrospect, I wish I would have emailed him after the June 26 piece, as I don't think we would be having this discussion.

I think it would be a good idea for the rules to be clarified as to whether someone else can insert a card. Personally, I don't think it should be the witness either. But whether or not the rules are clarified, changed, modified, it would seem silly to me to have Tex "recertify". It's over.

[Autolupus]

For something as auspicious as a first cert you'd've thought there'd be a clip!

Showing a set, CC swipe and close.

[CaptainCrush]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGnAMxXICMM

here is just the youtube link to the warm-up and 3.5 inch close

[Autolupus]

It's a good close but the CC swipe is less than well documented!

[OldGuy]

How do you all feel about using a witness who is a friend of the person trying to certify?