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3.5 Credit Card Set....done!


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mobsterone

Richard we have met (GGC 2004), many GB members put their own name in their signature lines (I do for example). You'll note that as many accusations, as you put them, have been made there are also plenty that appreciate all you have done and Tex's obvious strength. However, that does not mean you are above question. That some may not have yet made their mark does not mean, providing they are neither rude nor insulating, that they cannot ask you a question not suggest that rules should be followed. I, for one, have felt the need to defend myself in the past. I consider that I have made something of a mark yet will quite rightly defend myself with ease when the occasion demands it. I did so coming up and will, the higher I hopefully rise, probably do so again. The higher the position we occupy the easier it is to be seen and for others to shoot at. Howe we deal with that is more telling than to infer that because we do so much our integrity is beyond question. I can still recall 'my word is bond' being used by Kim Woods as though no one should question him. It wasn't enough.

As to some other points. Many have suggested and I agree that IM and Randall have changed the rules for No 3, 3.5 and 4 certification over time, as you will know, to add strength to what he had hoped was a straight forward exercise. Pick up gripper, do not take the piss setting, close gripper thus demonstrating your hand strength.

Points clearly stated objectively by GB members have not been suitably answered. While it is indeed understood that Randall most certainly initially meant the rules he laid out to be, how can I describe this, enough to be a guide and again enough that any small bending of the same did not become silly (vis parallel sets and worse making the CCS necessary). At the same time Randall has made a point of adding little jibes to his updates of the rules. 'Keyboard Warriors' being one (meaning those on the net who dare criticise him). Others are equally clear.

1) Now you state that you have several unopened grippers which could be used for said certs. Randall says one will be sent. It should have therefore been sent.

2) You have promoted Tex on many occasions, admit he trains in your facility if not actually with you, have posted several feats of strength of his via the Sorinex Youtube account, yet defend your able refereeing elsewhere (at many of the events you previously mentioned in an earlier post). While that assures you are indeed a good judge it does NOT assure you of the clear objectivity IM say they want. It shouldn't just be clear to you but to ALL. It gives a greater value to the certs and to those acting as witnesses if no questions can be raised. In many of the events you have judged you may well have known of an athletes feats but not known then quite so personally as in this case. You'll note I have made no reference as to whether or not you showed any favour to Tex. I do not think you would but still it can and will be questioned. I'd suggest it would have been better to take a step back on this one.

3) Other points raised included one over which you saw and allowed to take place and indeed to which Randall refers as not being his preference but which he allowed and that was how the card was passed by another man other than the man closing the gripper. It should not have happened either this time nor in the past and the rules are clear. I have no doubt that the reference to said card being held by the gripper closing athlete was no accident yet others have pointed out it has happened several times.

The bottom line is the stricter the adherence to any laid out rules the greater the value any feat then done successfully has. That as true for any sport as it is for closing a gripper (and that's without the knocks the grip guys get from the rest of the strength community for being so damned anal). The questions others ask want answering and in doing so it does not change what you have done before nor what you will continue to add to the sport in the future.

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tspinillo

Ironmind never sent a gripper? Have others been afforded this convenience? This is saddening how the rules appear to have not been equally enforced for certifications.

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boland magyar
Gentlemen, While I am a great supporter of the freedom of speech I do have concern when critical remarks are made directly or indirectly about me. I do not stay at my home base but travel nation wide to attend and support the efforts of the strength community which I have been for the past 45 years. Friends... I have many, nation and world wide at both advanced and normal levels of strength success .They, with all those in the grip world I DO consider my friends. I feel many comments have been made those who choose to remain at home and find pleasure in attacking anothers credibility without ever being present or knowing or caring enough to get the whole story. There have been accusations thrown out that if I wanted, to drag others in to my defense... I could. Comments of how close I was to the close, If the gripper 3.5 was correctly requested, if it was sent directly by Ironmind,if I was requested in writing to be a judge are easily provable by Emails and photos we have. I am wondering where the many of you out there that are reading this and HAVE been to events with me observing certifications and live judging and all that comes with it haven't stepped forward because the truth lies with you. Might you be the next to be set upon? I have supported the efforts of Tex and other strongmen for the true love of the sport and yes , I do have a large facility that does allow others to see, feel, and try items of strength others may never get to enjoy if we closed our door and if that is wrong, what can I say? I do not and have not ever "trained " with Tex even though at times we are working our OWN programs in different times or areas in my place. He is, as you all are always welcome and while I do see him do things and give him far less coaching than I have done for many we never train lifting OR grip together so please, because it DOES matter get your information straight before you speak and I will show you the same courtesy. If you do have something to say good or bad please feel free to call or write me personally and, as I do sign your name to your statement so I have the pleasure to know just who I am speaking to. In any case I intend to go on supporting grip and this very board in which you find my efforts lacking. I wish everyone the best of luck. Many thanks, Sincerely, Richard Sorin

rules are rules and if they was followed this thread would not exist

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I think its about time to stop armchair quarterbacking and get back to our own training. Its Ironmind's game, and their ball. If you dont like how its played then dont join the game. Make your own cert, or do the MM cert ladder, or do none of the above. Regardless of how the rules are interpreted it still comes down to being strong enough to do something or not IMHO.

Thank you Richard for being man enough to step up and comment on the situation and for your longtime support of the sport.

- Aaron

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Chris Mathison
I think its about time to stop armchair quarterbacking and get back to our own training. Its Ironmind's game, and their ball. If you dont like how its played then dont join the game. Make your own cert, or do the MM cert ladder, or do none of the above. Regardless of how the rules are interpreted it still comes down to being strong enough to do something or not IMHO.

Thank you Richard for being man enough to step up and comment on the situation and for your longtime support of the sport.

- Aaron

Seconded!

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mobsterone
I think its about time to stop armchair quarterbacking and get back to our own training. Its Ironmind's game, and their ball. If you dont like how its played then dont join the game. Make your own cert, or do the MM cert ladder, or do none of the above. Regardless of how the rules are interpreted it still comes down to being strong enough to do something or not IMHO.

Thank you Richard for being man enough to step up and comment on the situation and for your longtime support of the sport.

- Aaron

Some are not 'armchair quarterbacks'. Please note that simple fact.

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Wannagrip

For those not here for long, many years ago this board was the first to start "talking" about variances in grippers and "all grippers are not created equal". And, it was all just people interested in grip talking and becoming a community. Statements were made to the contrary previously in the #1 distributor of grippers catalog and it literally blew the lid off "certifications".

Then the "traveling cert gripper" was created by the community here for another cert that was made by the people for the people.

The ironic thing about this whole thread...if it wasn't for that company, this place would not have been born. And, this board in the collective has probably given the company more sales than they could ever have imagined and will probably help provide their retirement fund! ;)

In a couple years, I think this board will be over 10 years old....

And, the rest is history. :)

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Hubgeezer
I think its about time to stop ... and get back to our own training. Its Ironmind's game, and their ball. If you dont like how its played then dont join the game...Regardless of how the rules are interpreted it still comes down to being strong enough to do...

- Aaron

I agree and think everyone has said what they need to say. The whole thing, in some ways, is a little embarassing. I say that to describe how I feel about it, not to slam anyone. We are a large group of people, many of whom feel very passionately about these things. Details to some that may seem silly are the difference between integrity and honor to others. Valid criticisms by some are simply attacks by others. Personally, I feel a little creepy for reading all of the posts on this one. The last comments by Richard, followed by Steve's, followed by Aaron's, seems like a good place and time to put this one behind us.

Mike Corlett

aka Hubgeezer

Salinas, CA USA

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vikingsrule92
I think its about time to stop armchair quarterbacking and get back to our own training. Its Ironmind's game, and their ball. If you dont like how its played then dont join the game. Make your own cert, or do the MM cert ladder, or do none of the above. Regardless of how the rules are interpreted it still comes down to being strong enough to do something or not IMHO.

Thank you Richard for being man enough to step up and comment on the situation and for your longtime support of the sport.

- Aaron

Well said Aaron. And Bill, you are very right about it being Randy's actions that led to the formation of this board and the future popularity of grip training. It's just sad how corrupt a man can become over time and how he can grow to hate the people who have made him what he is today. As it has been said by many (including nine inch nails!!!) don't bite the hand tha feeds you, well that's 100% of what he has been doing in these last couple years. That being said, I agree witht he above posts that we should put this behind us and see if Ironmind takes action at all (not likely IMHO) and continue IF necessary.

Edited by vikingsrule92
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Bob Lipinski

Yup, I do have to say that regardless of opinions about anything else, thank you Mr. Sorin for not letting this degrade into a pissing match. You've taken the criticism rather well, when others might have just lashed out.

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Pancake Sprawl
Gentlemen, While I am a great supporter of the freedom of speech I do have concern when critical remarks are made directly or indirectly about me. I do not stay at my home base but travel nation wide to attend and support the efforts of the strength community which I have been for the past 45 years. Friends... I have many, nation and world wide at both advanced and normal levels of strength success .They, with all those in the grip world I DO consider my friends. I feel many comments have been made those who choose to remain at home and find pleasure in attacking anothers credibility without ever being present or knowing or caring enough to get the whole story. There have been accusations thrown out that if I wanted, to drag others in to my defense... I could. Comments of how close I was to the close, If the gripper 3.5 was correctly requested, if it was sent directly by Ironmind,if I was requested in writing to be a judge are easily provable by Emails and photos we have. I am wondering where the many of you out there that are reading this and HAVE been to events with me observing certifications and live judging and all that comes with it haven't stepped forward because the truth lies with you. Might you be the next to be set upon? I have supported the efforts of Tex and other strongmen for the true love of the sport and yes , I do have a large facility that does allow others to see, feel, and try items of strength others may never get to enjoy if we closed our door and if that is wrong, what can I say? I do not and have not ever "trained " with Tex even though at times we are working our OWN programs in different times or areas in my place. He is, as you all are always welcome and while I do see him do things and give him far less coaching than I have done for many we never train lifting OR grip together so please, because it DOES matter get your information straight before you speak and I will show you the same courtesy. If you do have something to say good or bad please feel free to call or write me personally and, as I do sign your name to your statement so I have the pleasure to know just who I am speaking to. In any case I intend to go on supporting grip and this very board in which you find my efforts lacking. I wish everyone the best of luck. Many thanks, Sincerely, Richard Sorin

you don't know me, and we'll probably never meet, but i respect you AND Tex's strength. i may catch some flack, but i agree with you and think both of your certs were fine. my opinion of this situation is this, who holds it or whatever is moot because you still have to possess the power in YOUR body to shut such grippers the slight convenience that someone else holding the card MAY provide (i don't know personally because i have never did a CC set) is like saying using chalk in olympic weight lifting gives an advantage to the lifter because he gets a better grip on the bar then those who don't imho.

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Sybersnott
If you do have something to say good or bad please feel free to call or write me personally and, as I do sign your name to your statement so I have the pleasure to know just who I am speaking to.

I have something to say. Richard, will you PLEASE be my witness when the time comes for me to cert on the #3.5? Thank you. :happy

Many thanks, Sincerely, Richard Sorin

No, thank you Richard, for all you've done for us and for the world of grip & grip strength! :bow:bow

Sybersnott

(a.k.a. John Hicks)

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What a thread! First, congrats to Tex for closing the #3.5! :rock Incredible feat regardless of circumstances.

I do however feel much of the same disdain for the way the rules were laid out and followed. It has been mentioned that certain "extra" details were passed on to the judges in certain certifications and not in others (via email apparently). These details do not appear on the Ironmind site rules for all to read and aspiring gripsters to train by (though, now I guess you can dig through the daily reports to find the rule changes). I feel they should be so this sort of controversy can be avoided. Granted, there was no requirement to record it on video nor display it for all to see - thanks to Mr. Sorin for allowing this.

The main point seems to be the fact that the card was held by a third party. I do think this has some bearing on the ability of the athlete to give their best effort. I remember watching a video some months back that was a sort of interview with Mr. Sorin, wherein he discussed the difficulty and awkwardness of doing some low intensity/increased dexterity task with one hand while performing a high intensity/maximum effort task in the other hand. The analogy he used was to sign your name with one hand and try to close a very hard gripper with your other...not easy by any means, and most would agree that both tasks could not be performed optimally. This is exactly the situation that occurs when one follows the rules on the Ironmind site where the gripster has to administer their own card. It does seem odd that none of the judges to receive the extra instructions allowing a third party to hold the card caught the discrepancy in the rules on the web site or brought it to the attention of Mr. Strossen.

I don't think there is anyone to blame but the man behind it all - Mr. Strossen. He made the rules, changed the rules, sends the "extra instructions" to the judges, and then accepts no blame for the confusion/controversy. I have read many negative comments about the man on this forum and it seems he has no appreciation for the largest grip community in existence, which probably gives his company more sales than any other source. His reply to the issue on 9 August continues the downward spiral of respect I might have had for the guy. He is never wrong - I'm sure he'll agree. It's as if he is unwilling to amend the rules to show the extra details and the rules were perfectly clear to begin with. I'm no college graduate but I am less than impressed by the reply of this "educated" man with a PhD.

The Ironmind cert is not such a desirable goal for me now. I'd much rather be a MM than a CoC. ;)

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I don't think there's any issue with Richard or Tex personally. I mean if a company owner told me what to do, I wouldn't go back and read the rules to check and see if he's right, I'd do what he said and that sounds like what Richard and Tex were doing.

Also, I don't blame Randal for wanting a wider set. I mean it's his game so if he wants a person to close it with their toes, then either play by his rules or don't play. Side note - when I first started researching grippers to buy I saw a vid of someone closing a #3 gripper and they used about a 1/2 inch set and I must admit it did blow me away. To my newbie mind it was a 2 hand close so I could see how Ironmind wouldn't want that and didn't anticipate it.

I think as a company owner who wants to sell products, I do think that Randal could have been much more tactful in his handling of things and certainly not criticizing the gripboard when this place obviously purchases MANY grip tools from ironmind. Plus, after crowing about being all legit and everything, I do think this latest debacle from Randal is sorta odd. Sounds to me like he was saying, we prefer that you don't have someone else hold the card but if you do I MAY not count against you.

Oh well, like I said, for those that have a huge problem with Ironmind then I'd say ignore thier lists and certs.

My goal is to close the #3 or Grand Master with a wide set because that's just what I personally want. I don't measure it but I have to admit that Randal's description of the "sweet spot" is about where I like to start.

I'd be thrilled to have either Richard or Tex's grip strength so congrats to both.

Anybody else who still has goals of certing just do it the same way. Maybe this will make the #4 slightly more attainable for those shooting for it.

Peace!

Tim

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IMO the Ironmind cert process has ZERO credibility. The rules appear to be mere guidelines open for interpretation. That is NOT what a rule is. I've been an ice hockey official for 10 years now, and there are 600+ rules I had to learn. There's a very distinct difference between a rule and gray areas where you have some leeway to use judgement. Richard being the impartial judge I can see as the "spirit of the rules", so some leeway can be accepted there. But the gripper was NOT sent from IM for the cert and the person certing did NOT hold the credit card. Both are clearly stated in the rules at the time he did the cert.

2 rules were broken, so Tex needs to sit in the penalty box for 4 minutes And that better be a BIG penatly box :D

Honestly if you don't like the way Strossen plays, take your grippers and play elsewhere. He's not the only game in town...

I have NO desire to do an IM cert and won't purchase any more IM grippers as I won't support someone I don't respect.

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Being a new member to the IM and gripping community, my remarks carry little weight, and rightfully so. I will venture to state my brief thoughts, anyway.

When official rules are put in writing for the achievement of a certified COC, when those rules are stressed as being absolutely critical, and then when those rules are clearly not followed, eyebrows will be raised and questions will be asked. And they should be. Verbal dispensation or any other variance from the official written rules should be unacceptable and avoided at all costs.

As has been said, when one "owns" the rules, he always has the option of doing whatever he chooses. However, if the owner desires to maintain the honor of the achievement and the respect of the community that lives and competes by those official written rules, certifying and defending a COC close that clearly does not follow them is not the best way to go about it.

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StalwartSentinel
IMO the Ironmind cert process has ZERO credibility. The rules appear to be mere guidelines open for interpretation. That is NOT what a rule is. I've been an ice hockey official for 10 years now, and there are 600+ rules I had to learn. There's a very distinct difference between a rule and gray areas where you have some leeway to use judgement. Richard being the impartial judge I can see as the "spirit of the rules", so some leeway can be accepted there. But the gripper was NOT sent from IM for the cert and the person certing did NOT hold the credit card. Both are clearly stated in the rules at the time he did the cert.

2 rules were broken, so Tex needs to sit in the penalty box for 4 minutes And that better be a BIG penatly box :D

Honestly if you don't like the way Strossen plays, take your grippers and play elsewhere. He's not the only game in town...

I have NO desire to do an IM cert and won't purchase any more IM grippers as I won't support someone I don't respect.

Regardless of the FUBAR'd Cert, they do make some outstanding merchandise. :cool

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I think so many people have had a say on this, and Richard has posted a couple of times but not really said much on this.

I'd like to know if how Richard Sorin and Tex feel about the certification being given to Tex although multiple rules were broken during the cert attempt. Would Richard and Tex both feel that as to keep the cert true to the rules that the cert be taken back by Ironmind and then make him re-do it?

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I think its about time to stop armchair quarterbacking and get back to our own training. Its Ironmind's game, and their ball. If you dont like how its played then dont join the game. Make your own cert, or do the MM cert ladder, or do none of the above. Regardless of how the rules are interpreted it still comes down to being strong enough to do something or not IMHO.

Thank you Richard for being man enough to step up and comment on the situation and for your longtime support of the sport.

- Aaron

Seconded!

Thirded! :)

I admire Richard's way of expressing himself; sincerity, integrity, and professionalism!! :rock . I was quite suprised with the attack on Bill and the Gripboard on the Ironmind site. Quite suprised. On a very public website! I appreciate and honor all of us that stay on the 'higher ground' and not get it into attack/ retaliation mode.

This quote rings very true to me regarding what was said on the Ironmind site:

"People seem not to see that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character." -Ralph Waldo Emerson

Sincerely,

Blackdog

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Bert Sorin

Gentlemen,

Unfortunately, I have had to read numerous posts over the last few days from people bashing the honor of my father, Richard Sorin. Needless to say this has been difficult to sit idle and watch him take a beating for following rules that he was told. This whole thing has been has been blown grossly out of proportion, and needs to be put to bed. Lots of valuable training time and energy has been spent on this topic.

As to respond to Mlstrass's post (and specific others), I was the one taking the photos. I was there. Unless you WERE there and not just watching video (that we were nice enough to provide for our grip brothers), please check your facts before going off on a tangent or making accusations.

Here are a few things that have been questioned that I will directly respond to:

1. Tex and Richard do not, and have never been training partners

2. Tex called and emailed Strossen to ask if he could certify, Strossen accepted and emailed Richard to ask if he would be the judge.

3. The 3.5 Grippers were sent by Strossen to Sorinex via UPS, and arrived the day that Tex closed it. Tex was ready to do it, and saw no reason in waiting. The grippers were NOT already at Sorinex prior to Tex calling Randall. Hopefully the photo (link provided) will clear things up.

4. Although we have purchased dozens of grippers to have here for our training and as gifts to visiting gripsters, none of these have ever been used to certify, as we have ALWAYS use NEW grippers sent directly from IM, and documented the shipped packages, opening times etc.

5. As for the comment regarding the distance Richard was standing from Tex during the close (5m). That is pure hogwash. During few of the first attempts Tex made on the 3.5, Richard's head was in the way of the photo because he was so contorted to get as close as he could to see the handles touch. His face was no further that 24" from the handles on some of these attempts. You can refer to the second photo for this varification.

http://picasaweb.google.com/goergen2/TexHe...380449072707714

http://picasaweb.google.com/goergen2/TexHe...381089271193362

As said before, if you have issues or questions for Richard, Tex or myself, please feel free to contact US directly.

Thank you for your time. Keep training hard for your goals, whatever they may be.

Bert Sorin

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Gentlemen,

Unfortunately, I have had to read numerous posts over the last few days from people bashing the honor of my father, Richard Sorin. Needless to say this has been difficult to sit idle and watch him take a beating for following rules that he was told. This whole thing has been has been blown grossly out of proportion, and needs to be put to bed. Lots of valuable training time and energy has been spent on this topic.

As to respond to Mlstrass's post (and specific others), I was the one taking the photos. I was there. Unless you WERE there and not just watching video (that we were nice enough to provide for our grip brothers), please check your facts before going off on a tangent or making accusations.

Here are a few things that have been questioned that I will directly respond to:

1. Tex and Richard do not, and have never been training partners

2. Tex called and emailed Strossen to ask if he could certify, Strossen accepted and emailed Richard to ask if he would be the judge.

3. The 3.5 Grippers were sent by Strossen to Sorinex via UPS, and arrived the day that Tex closed it. Tex was ready to do it, and saw no reason in waiting. The grippers were NOT already at Sorinex prior to Tex calling Randall. Hopefully the photo (link provided) will clear things up.

4. Although we have purchased dozens of grippers to have here for our training and as gifts to visiting gripsters, none of these have ever been used to certify, as we have ALWAYS use NEW grippers sent directly from IM, and documented the shipped packages, opening times etc.

5. As for the comment regarding the distance Richard was standing from Tex during the close (5m). That is pure hogwash. During few of the first attempts Tex made on the 3.5, Richard's head was in the way of the photo because he was so contorted to get as close as he could to see the handles touch. His face was no further that 24" from the handles on some of these attempts. You can refer to the second photo for this varification.

http://picasaweb.google.com/goergen2/TexHe...380449072707714

http://picasaweb.google.com/goergen2/TexHe...381089271193362

As said before, if you have issues or questions for Richard, Tex or myself, please feel free to contact US directly.

Thank you for your time. Keep training hard for your goals, whatever they may be.

Bert Sorin

How do you explain the credit card being inserted for the gripster, instead of as written in the rules it being inserted by him using his free hand? That is the main point of contention among many here.

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