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Roark

Joe Kinney is Number One, but...

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Roark

This is an appeal to Joe Kinney, who in fact may be

less concerned with his place in the gripper scheme

of history than are the rest of us, certainly less than I.

Now that the IGC has been formed, and will be keeping

specific records, those records which remain vague will

of necessity be grouped together with an asterisk: all

uncalibrated grippers, known only by number type, MUST

yield to known quantities. So, whoever closes the first

calibrated #4 gripper must top the list, and whoever has

closed an uncalibrated gripper must be ranked lower,

and remain lower until the proper ranking can be assigned by calibration. Perhaps Mr. Kinney will rise

to the top when his #4 is calibrated. Perhaps he will

not. We must forever assign him a lower place for his

lost #4 which was never calibrated, and will forever

remain an unknown specific.

Mr. Kinney deserves notation for being the first person

to close a #4, calibrated or not. He will top that list

forever, just as Mr. Sorin will on the #3 list, and these

comments are in no way intended to disparage Mr.

Kinney- in fact the very opposite. I am urging him to

claim his rightful place in this listing. Frankly, since

PDA is willing to calibrate the gripper for free, I am

puzzled that the matter has not been handled by now.

So, those of you personally acquainted with Mr. Kinney,

please chat with him about this, and report back to the

board what you discover. If he simply has no interest

in the matter, then the asterisk must remain on what

will eventually be a lenthening list of calibrated #4

closures.

If that is the case, and the uncertainty remains, then

let's hear no moans of justice thwarted. Choices have

consequences.

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Wannagrip

I agree Joe.

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Guest kINGPIN

That sounds fair and just to me.  This is why the board has been set up.

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The Mac

I agree, but I would go a little further than Mr. Roark - there should be an "official" list (topped by the highest calibrated gripper known to have been closed - who would that be?) and an "unofficial" list, topped by Joe Kinney.

Actually I would like to see this taken even further - only count grippers that have been calibrated on that day in front of "officials" in competiton - that's how other sports work, and I don't think it would be that hard to put into practice.

What this would mean is that the great gripper feats of old - Kinney, Sorin and Brookfield etc. would never make it onto the official list (unless they came back to prove themselves again). But I don't think that would diminish their achievements at all. We simply seem to have come to a point where we can say (with reasonable accuracy) exactly how hard the grippers are, so I see it as an opportunity to go beyond the usual "well, I've closed a #3 in my Dad's garage, must have been an easy one though, or it could be that I'm just a monster". I've no wish to cast doubt on anybody, but how can you know he did close it? Even if it was witnessed by a reliable individual, how can you know that the gripper used was the one actually calibrated, even if everyone is playing fair? Mix-ups happen.

I'm sure that Joe Kinney closed the #4. I'm pretty sure that it was a real, not weak, #4 that he closed on that day. But I don't know for sure. If it was done in competition with a gripper calibrated on that day I would be much happier. And that goes for every other gripper closure that I've never personally seen.

Chris McCarthy

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Roark

Chris,

On October 17, 1946, Russia joined the International

Weightlifting Federation, and at that point Russian

records began to be recognized. It was Paul Anderson's

14th birthday.

On January 1, 1965, powerlifting records began to be

recognized officially, so that those which came before

(including Anderson's) remained in the shaded areas

of history.

Tom Black has his hands full- and not of metal to bend,

but of factions to meld. But whenever lists become of-

ficial will begin our 1946 or 1965 pivot point.

In my opinion no separate unofficial lists should be

kept, but should be gathered under the asterisk on

the same list, and certainly allowance should be made

for Sorin and the others who have been the accomplished inspiration to so many; if those who have

closed calibrated grippers with a witness present, cannot be grandfathered onto the list, we have a sad

day.

Having said that, once our pivot day begins, 'newcomers'

making the list should do so under official IGC conditions, so that the only part of the official list that

will grow will be the IGC approved, not the grandfathered. The IGC should not, in my view, be

concerned with those who do not wish to participate

within its boundaries, any more than the IWF was

concerned with Russian records before Russia joined.

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The Mac

I don't think the list would be lessened by this "grandfathering" at all - merely that I will always (even subconciously) tend look past the ratings with asterisks by the side because they may not have not subject to the same standards as the  new marks. In any case, there is certainly an opportunity for us all (under Mr. Black's guidance) to debate and begin to draw up the standards that the IGC will hold to.

Chris McCarthy

(Edited by The Mac at 11:04 am on Oct. 27, 2001)

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Sybersnott

The falacy of this is that Joe can take ANY #4 and claim that THIS is the one he closed.  No witnesses or any other evidence to back his claim.  Just a #4, and "uh, yeah... this is the one I closed".

There HAS to be more than that!!

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Wannagrip

I don't think Joe would do that.  

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Tom Black

Joe Roark wrote:

  “In my opinion no separate unofficial lists should be kept, but should be gathered under the asterisk on the same list, and certainly allowance should be made for Sorin and the others who have been the accomplished inspiration to so many; if those who have closed calibrated grippers with a witness present, cannot be grand fathered onto the list, we have a sad day.”

Joe, I agree with you completely.  Your thoughts on this are invaluable.  I was very concerned about the grandfathering, yours is a way to do so.  I think we will accept any COC who gets their gripper calibrated and can find their witness of the close to sign the statements.  Of course, if they are still at their peak they can participate along with everyone else to the standards of the organization. Chris is also right that people will look beyond the asterisks, the IGC won’t draw conclusions about the older numbers, that will be left up to the person considering the list.  

Sybersnott,

   Take a look at the certification statements in the IGC thread; we have to work under the assumption that people are generally honest.  It’s not like the statement is under fine or imprisonment, it is a question on honor.  You’ve talked to Joe, and you know his character.  From the clip of the video I’ve seen he is an honorable man, and thus Wannagrip is right, Joe would not do that.

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Roark

Tom,

From what I have heard and read, Joe Kinney is

an honorable man, and I have no doubt that he

has, on numerous occasions, probably when the

fancy strikes him, closed the number four and held it

shut so long that the slowest exposure camera

could get a crisp picture. He might even be able to

hold it shut long enough for me to run 100 yards.

But bring your lunch, Mr. Kinney.

But what if we speak of someone else, who is it

generally thought is not an honorable man, whoever

that may be. This is where the problem arises. What do

we say to that individual ? The requirement of proof

must be uniform so we are not placed as moral judges.

Either the criteria are met, or they are not.

There are no doubt several witnesses who will sign off

for Mr. Kinney's closure.

And certaining Mr. Sorin can join in the current process

to claim his rightful place. And others.

But when the grandfathering period ends, whatever

time length is agreed on, then the new rules should

become the only avenue to recognition within the IGC,

don't you think?

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Tom Black

  The Gripboard already has enough long term and trusted members around the US and in Europe to act as IGC officials.  They would not have any personal motivations to sign the certification statement without having witnessed the gripper closed.  The grand fathering, by its very nature, will not have IGC officials, but the COC’s have already lived up to IM’s standards for closure, which includes a witness.  I’m not going to set a time for grand fathering now.  I hope that there will be a time in the future when it is obvious that the process should end and we will announce that grand fathering will end.  At that time everyone will have to certify under the IGC rules, and this will be the only avenue for consideration.

   One thing that concerns me that has not been mentioned is my concern that the grand fathered feats are never exceeded.  I believe that the record books have been “restarted” in many lifting sports, and ultimately the old records have been exceeded.  It would be troubling if we grand fathered Kinney’s #4 close and even after a generation it has not been exceeded.  

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Roark

Tom,

As they say in philosophy, 'time is not efficacious',

that is, the passage of time by itself does not cause

anything. It has been a few years now that only

Kinney has been recognized as having closed a

#4, indeed, two separate #4s. If that time doubles,

or triples, and no one else closes a #4, then perhaps he

owns the weakest #4 ever manufactured, or perhaps

he is years ahead of the rest of those trying to catch

him. Those grandfathered in, of his ilk, deserve the

respect, even the longevity, they have earned.

What if he were still able to close the #4, and did so

to be certified, the passing of time would not change

the fact that he stands alone, so grandfathering, so

long as only those deserving of it are included, should

not taint their accomplishments simply because the

rest of us are on treadmills.

After all, Inch lifted the Inch bell overhead with one

hand thousands of times, and no one else has lifted

it overhead with one hand even five times. And look

at all the decades that have passed. [That's a joke,

folks.]

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supersqueeze

You are all forgetting that Richard Sorin closed #4 strength grippers for REPS. He closed the Phantom 4 at 621 IP and has had ALL of his grippers calibrated. This man is definately honorable and the real deal. The difference between him and Kinney is that he did not close a gripper from Iron Mind with a #4 stamped on the bottom and he has stepped up and had ALL his claims backed-up with plenty of impartial witnesses and calibration. Joe stands alone only in that he is a mystery.

-Mike M.

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AnimalCage

I don't believe we can exclude CoC's from the new list because they are still the leaders of the game, and many are still striving for gain.  I believe they should be grandfathered onto the new list.  To not allow them on would be comparable to saying the IM certification is totally fallable and untrustworthy, which is not true.

The question is, in my mind, how to bring them on.  What we do know is that all IM #3 grippers (with the exception of two abnormalities) that have been calibrated have measured over 350 IP.   If the new list were to begin at 350IP, why not bring all CoC's in at the 350 level?  Of course, Joe Kinney would be brought in at the comparable #4 level, the weakest measured being 487 IPs.

The benefits to this method would be:  1) The existing CoC's could be brought in, even though the equipment they used was not SOSP calibrated, 2) Interested CoC's could duke it out with calibrated grippers to gain standing, and 3) Aspiring CoC's could join the fight simply by closing a calibrated gripper.  4) Any future IM CoC's could join the list at the starting level without having closed a calibrated gripper.  This could apply to all future CoC's until they are able to certify with a calibrated gripper.  I think this method would foster a new level of competition between the greats in the grip world.

A few caveats:  1)  Not all CoC's may wish to participate.  Maybe the grandfathering could be done by invitation.  2)  A sub-350IP #3 may be found, like the two (292 and 311) owned by Mr Sorin.  The starting grandfather level would need to be decided upon and adhered to.  

Just a few thoughts to gnaw on.  Happy chewing.

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Guest StrongerthanArne

The problem of different handle lengths needs to be addressed in any ranking. The spread in handle lengths in for example IM grippers is too large to be ignored. My #3 has rather long handles, so if I closed it officially, the 396 IP rating would place me higher on the list than I deserve. Someone with another 396 IP gripper but with 3 mm shorter handles would actually have a gripper with a "difficulty to close" feel of a 410 IP gripper (give or take a few IP). I wish that any of you with a 330 IP BBM would have had the opportunity to give my (now returned)  330 IP Super Duty SOS gripper a squeeze; then you would know exactly what I am talking about.

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Wannagrip

I put the squeeze on a 352 so I DO know what you are talking about. :)

It was oretty close to my measured 429 IM #3!

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Guest StrongerthanArne

Wannagrip,

How much shorter was "the one to grip with your fingers handle" of the SOS gripper, compared to your 429 #3? A friend of mine was one mm from closing the 330 IP SOS gripper and then 10 mm from closing Arne's rather short, and thus difficult, 410 IP #3. Using Arne's 410 as standard the 330 IP SOS would have a "difficulty to close IP" of 341. My 366 IP SOS turned out to be very close to my 396 IP #3. With the 410 as standard the 366 IP SOS would have the feel of a 378 IP gripper, whereas the 396 IP #3 would have the feel of a 386 IP gripper. Added to this is the difficulty to instantly adjust to squeezing a gripper with rather narrow handles if you are used to one in which the handles are further apart.

Cheers

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Wannagrip

I don't know off hand.  I agree that part of it may have been due to specificity because the handles are closer together AND shorter with the SOS.  A weird feel for me.

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Guest Luke Reimer

I relate to what you are saying about the weird feel of handles short and close together. I have never missed my grip so many times as when I started using that IM gripper of mine with the handles cut down a centimeter (roughly) from each side. There's just so many angles that little thing can sit in your hand. I think Mark Harrison (CanadaCrush) would attest to its awkwardness too. From now on I think gripper handles should be a foot long (just kidding).

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The Mac

I have read over the many threads concerning the difference the handle length causes to the effective IP# of a gripper, and am very concerned about the impact this will have on the gripper rankings.

If we plan to rank on IP#, regardless of the gripper type, then there is considerable room for error based on the grippers handle length, distance between handles etc. Why bother to rank someone officially at 410# if the actual "difficulty" could be anywhere between 400-420?

Until we can actually work out a procedure for standardizing the actual grippers then the IP# ranking sytem is only a step forward from the T-4# system. I would say that grippers accurate to within a certain percentage (and it would have to be less than 1%, to give a small limit on the range of IP#) are the only acceptable implements we could use. Senior Mens's Shot Putts all weight 16lb (to within ounces) all around the world, and you can be confident that you don't all need to use the same putt to get a fair comparative result.

There are 2 ways I can see now to achieve this. The manafacturers could tighten up on their production (I have always thought it incredibly lax that their products could have such a range in "quality") so that all of their grippers are within acceptable limits. I know PDA have been working on this. If this would increase the price too much then only allow certification on calibrated grippers that are within acceptable limits. Train with whatever you have. We could have standards for different types of grippers, so we don't all need to use a specific "brand".

We need more than a standard certification procedure. We need standards for the grippers themselves.

And isn't it annoying when you're stuck with a blue face where you don't want it???

Chris McCarthy

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Tom Black

Testing the blue face!

Example 1-  ")

Example 2- " )

Note how example 2 uses a space between " and ), this will not be interpreted as a "wink."  Example 1 has the " and the ) without the space.

(Edited by Tom Black at 5:29 am on Nov. 2, 2001)

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The Mac

Thanks. I had wondered for some time just why that happened!!

Chris McC.

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Sybersnott

No wonder he's the IGC President!  He knows his stuff!!   ")    (Yes..... I did THAT on purpose!)

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Roark

Joe Kinney has two Inch replica dumbells: The first

was the prototype bell and was lighter, 160-162 lbs,

and Joe could not at first lift this with one hand, but

shortly conquered it. The second bell is the 172 lb

version which he mastered to the point of being able

to pass it from hand to hand, or as he described it,

drop it from one hand to the other, no toss involved.

But to his credit, even dropping the weight in this manner with its very narrow handle, and very wide chance of smashed toes, demonstrates a great deal of strength,

because at least momentarily the bell will be in free-fall

to the receiving hand.

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