Guest steiner1014 Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 Let's cut through the crap!!! Bottom Line: Kinney is still the only human being to close the #4 COC Gripper!!! End of story!!! STEIN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted November 13, 2001 Author Share Posted November 13, 2001 What crap? And just how do you know that Kinney is the only one to have closed a #4? Do you not think that there are those able to close the #3 of whom we are unaware? Perhaps that is so with the #4 as well. Granted, Kinney is the only one most of us know about. The #4 designation has caused more confusion than help. The calibration rating is what matters. When I spoke to Kinney recently he seemed to feel no urgency to document the ip required to close his #4, which is on loan to a friend, as is his 160 lb Inch replica. I believe there is another man who should be given credit for closing at this level, or perhaps beyond this level, and I have spoken to one witness and hope to speak to another, and will let the board know what the result is. But to return to my analogy from another post: The recent globe barbell I acquired is stamped in relief with the designation '150' lbs. But someone has removed about 35 lbs of shot from the globes, so it weighs less than its face value. It could very easily weigh more because there is adequate space in the globes for it to weigh more than is stamped on it. So what good does it do to call it a #150 ? About as much good as to call a gripper a #2 or whatever, when we know now that they vary as much as globe barbells did. The gripper designations guide you to the general city, not to the specific address, and therefore are of some help but nonetheless leave us lost for feeling we have arrived at an answer. Be cautious when declaring that we have arrived at the 'end of story'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steiner1014 Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 If I could close the #4 COC Gripper, I would definately want to get certified. I doubt there is anyone out there who can close it and could not care less to get recognition...Let's be real!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted November 13, 2001 Author Share Posted November 13, 2001 So you extrapolate that because you would want to be certified if able to close a #4 that therefore everyone able to close a #4 would want to be certified? There are a number of men who can close the number three who are not bothering with being certified. So long as it is known that they did close the three (and it was witnessed) that is satisfaction enough for them (apparently). One wonders why their logic would change in regard to a #4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steiner1014 Posted November 13, 2001 Share Posted November 13, 2001 Good point Roark. The number 3 COC has been closed officially by over 50 men. So I can see why there are some out there who would not really care to get certified BUT the #4 has only been officially closed by one man so I would assume that anyone who could indeed close it would want to get certified(but maybe not!) STEIN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 86-1005097353 Posted November 14, 2001 Share Posted November 14, 2001 Joe and Chris raise valid points about validating any feat of gripping strength. At the moment, grippers, such as Captains of Crush are available to the public. As enthusiasts succeeded in closing ever stronger springs the company has produced new models to challenge everyone. To be honest, a number 2 surely takes a good grip to close. Even almost closing it is something to be proud of. There must be a lot of those Crushers out there. They are relatively cheap to buy and you can acquire the grippers that suit your strength level. If you succeed at home you know what you have done and will be happy with your effort. When you read that a few men have closed the number 3 you have an idea of where you stand in the gripper-strength spectrum. Those 5 grades of grippers are a clever marketing strategy for the company that makes them. I wonder how many guys have the gripper that is really beyond their ability but they have one just in case they improve to that level. So far all is well and good. There can be no doubt that the legions of novices who succeed with number 1 will be in awe of anyone who can close a number 3. Anyone who can close a number 4 will be almost superhuman! Thus, the multitudes elevate champions to hero status. Among the enthusiasts there is much prestige to be the best at closing grippers. Now comes the hard part. How do we know if the grippers are equivalent? Could some be misstamped and not be what they seem? Do various batches and brands vary considerably? There seems to be anecdotal reports that grippers do in fact vary regarding the force needed to close them. Because of this many suggest that grippers need to be calibrated before feats are recognized as official. Others insist that only calibrated grippers used in front of witnesses can be officially recognized. There is just no way that anyone can either prove or disprove that someone has closed a proper gripper. It is possible to file off the numbers and stamp new numbers. I have such stamps in my engineering factory. It is inconceivable that any strongman would do such a thing, but we have to guard against it being done by either hoaxers or charlatans. I can see so many problems with spring loaded devices. Springs are heat-treated and I must say the conditions in their manufacture might vary slightly and cause batches to vary from others. How would anyone know what his grippers represent compared to other grippers. I am afraid that it is unlikely that closing different grippers will ever be able to be a precise event. Does training on a gripper change the characteristics regarding tensile strength? Certainly temperature will. We have to wonder if it is possible to alter the tensile strength of springs by various means such as reheating. What I conclude is that we all need a proper grip testing apparatus that eliminates all the problems and concerns that are now worrying some of us. I can design and build such a machine and end the debates and conjectures that are harming this fine sport. Unless you have standards and rules you are always going to have controversy. In discus throwing and other throwing events you can use your own implements but they have to be submitted to a committee beforehand to be measured for size and weight. Olympic competitions in weightlifting require that plates be weighed and authorised beforehand. Thus, in gripping there is no reason we cannot also have standards. The hand grippers are fine training tools and are fun to use. However, they really should not be used to compare grip strength among individuals unless at a contest somewhere that conditions are standardized. There will always be problems with devices that are not designed to be testing implements. What I imagine is a device with a weight stack that exceeds all current gripping ability. The device will be connected to two gripping handles that are equivalent to what are available to consumers. When the handles are a certain distance apart then a flag will fall to indicate the handles have been closed. That distance can be accurately measured and established. For the Captains of Crush handles they are 3/4 inches in diameter and therefore a distance of 1 1/2 inches would represent a closed position. I have measured three of the CoC grippers. The T is 134.5 mm in length. The # 2 are 134 mm. The # 3 are 136 mm. There you are, small differences already. It might sound petty, but little things can make a difference. Humans love to know how they perform compared to other people. At the moment we can do that by reading what others have done on the CoC grippers. However, casual reporting and claiming is not the same as official competitions. At the moment the unsatisfactory situation exists where there is no way to validate the feats achieved. If someone posts that they have closed a certain # who can challenge that it was done? The truth is such claims do matter to the enthusiasts here. There is no doubt that more # 4 grippers have been sold now that someone has claimed they have closed it. We need the rules and standardizations now so that those successful have a way of establishing what they have achieved. It is one thing to wonder if someone else has closed a certain # but quite another to proceed in a manner that will establish the feat that you want to demonstrate and get credit for. Until there is a decent testing apparatus we are going to have endless controversy about those grippers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted November 14, 2001 Share Posted November 14, 2001 Vince, read some of the old posts on the board. I believe there is a decent testing apparatus and people have been getting their grippers measured for months now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest StrongerthanArne Posted November 14, 2001 Share Posted November 14, 2001 Vince, All your points have been discussed extensively (to put it mildly) on this board. I have myself posted a number of discussions regarding differences in gripper lengths and coil diametre. Regarding your pinch grip apparatus I must say it sounds very impractical that one has to wash the hands all the time. For competition I think that iron plates work very well with chalk, and I see no advantage using your machine without chalk as it would be a distinct disadvantage to, for example, have sweaty hands. A person with naturally drier hands would have an unfair advantage with more time to position the hand properly. Moreover, I would guess that the texture of the hand would be more critical lifting without chalk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rog Posted November 14, 2001 Share Posted November 14, 2001 If people are interested in scientific exactitude, the Jamar hand dynamometer already exists for that purpose and is accepted by the medical community as the standard. In fact, it's the device that has been used to establish the normative data for hand strength. So, why reinvent the wheel ? The grippers should probably be relegated to the role of training devices given their many variables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Szimanski Posted November 14, 2001 Share Posted November 14, 2001 IM certification today requires an authorized third party witness, photograph, and signed documentation. Despite the gripper inconsistencies the process itself is reasonable. When did that become the standard process? The question arises because today YOU could not have a family member act as your witness, then pick up the phone, call Strossen and say, 'I did it. My brother saw me.", and become certified at any level. Was that the accepted process until '98 and did it apply to everyone on the cert lists up to that time? Or some date beyond? Or was the process just variable depending on who was submitting? Things that make you go, 'Hmmmmm.' John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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