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Forearm vs. grip training frequency


Guest MonStar1023

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??? Sorry Mate. I did go a bit overboard. I have spent so much time and effort to achieve my current level of fitness and muscularity that your comment flipped my lid a bit.

Please don’t stop posting your comments on account of me being a bit sensitive after a bad day at work.

I do apologize. :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  

G

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The poor guy who asked about forearm vs. grip frequency is probably totally lost.

Please somebody, shut that thread down. I think it could go on and on for 20 pages.

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Guest MonStar1023

Yeah I am definitely pretty lost.. LOL. The only thing that I definitely gained was that I am going to hit my grip 2x a week with CoC grippers. First session is holding the CoC for time and 2nd session is going to be for actual reps..

:cool::cool:

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One last question. As a french speaker, I am not familiar with english abreviations. What does LOL mean ? A lot of people use it in the boards I'm checking.

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Guest kINGPIN

Personally I think this has been one of the best threads yet.  There has been a lot of conflicting views which have given me a lot to think about and I thank everyone for that.  The people on this board are some of the best most informed lifters I have ever met and I open my ears to all comments and have a lot of time for what people say.  There is no advice like ''oh, you are in a rut...''try taking creatine''.  

I would like to see a lot more threads related to lifting to do the same for my bodybuilding as this place has done for my grip.  Grip work attracts a different type of person then the bodybuilding boards, the type of person who cares enough about his strength to work what for many people is a weak link.

I take my hat off to all of you.

Andy

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Couldn't agree more KingPin! I think that the original founder members were of high intellect and were very well informed and as a result of that the board has attracted like-minded people. Now we have a lot of intelligent and informed members sharing their views and perpetuating the examples set by the original founder members and helping us all reach our individual goals faster and safer. ;)  :D  :D

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Guest kINGPIN

If only a board could be set up with everyone from here that is devoted to lifting, odd lifting, bodybuilding etc.  I will of course be one of the moderators and if I see one post refering to the latest prohormone/designer protien/nad shrinkers, then there ass will be booted out to make way for real training advice.

Another little brainchild of mine.

All those in favour raise your glasses!  :D  ;)  :D  :D

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Kingpin (and others),

I have been to some of the bodybuilding boards and found the members on those forums to be self-centered, egotistical jerkoffs!  There was one board that didn't like steroids.... THEY LOVED THEM!!!  All they could talk about is where they could score some really good "juice", and several members sold steroids right there on the board!  Sickening.

They were VERY one-sided, and if you didn't love steroids the way THEY did - you were NOT invited to come back!  They were not interested in natural training and strength.... they wanted to get "pumped" muscles, and really didn't give a #### how they did it.  I tried to post my opinion, not really giving any indication of how I felt either way... and guess what?  My post was DELETED by the board moderator - he then e-mailed me and told me off!  What an ass****!!!  I NEVER went back.

It was at this time I decided that the GripBoard would become "my home".  It was a decision that was one of the best I've made.  I'm surrounded by guys who think and train like I do.

Some topics do tend to wind off the subject.  Just remember why we are here.  To exchange good ideas and offer suggestions on a variety of subjects relating to grip strength/training.  'Nuff said.

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Guest 86-1005097353

I see a lot of discussions have taken place overnight. I will respond to Blue Shadow first.

You said, "Granted the muscle does not know if it is a free weight or a machine,but the person doing the excercise knows!!""

Only the brain knows anything at all. The muscles and connective tissue do not. If we go back to basic hypertrophy theory it will be seen that the stimulus is caused by placing a muscle in tension. How that is done matters not as much as the degree of tension. The free weights vs machine argument is really void of any content.  

You charge me with professional bias, " I can understand your point of view, whereas being a gym owner and inventor you prefer machines, it's your bread and butter! "

That is total nonsense. I install the best equipment I can and also try to give the people what they want. I would prefer to have a gym without any free weights or barbell plates at all! As an inventor I have yet to sell any of my designs. It costs many thousands of dollars a year to pay renewal fees for patents. All up I have spent over $100,000 on my biceps-supinator patent and have yet to make a penny. You non-inventors have no idea how much it costs. The vast majority of inventions do not make any money for the inventor.

What are you saying when you admit, "As for the comparison between keyboards and typewriters if the typewriter did the job better and more efficiently, you bet my preference would still be the typewriter!!"

That is exactly the opposite of what is the case. If typewriters were superior I wouldn't have used that example as an argument.

To support your bias in favour of free weights you go to extreme means, " Calves can be developed doing toe raises with a barbell inside a power rack,this is a lot more strenuous than any machine and unless I'm wrong making it harder to perform is what you want! If you want to make it easier then by all means use machines! I believe machines do have their place (in gyms mostly) and any excercise is better than none!"

I disagree. The calf machines in my gym, which are different from those found anywhere else, are far superior to doing toe raises with a barbell. For a start there is no pain caused by the bar across the neck. I have a seated donkey raise that is the best calf machine I have ever used. My members agree it is a good machine. It is a falsehood that you can train calves effectively with free weights. As soon as your calves get strong you will get diminishing returns from barbells.

" As for thinking that people who use only free weights are bizarre,so be it! I would rather be thought of as being bizarre rather than following the rest of the sheep everytime a pretty new machine appears on the scene!"

It is bizarre to believe false theories and then practice those theories when improvements are around.

" And nine times out of ten these machines are so outrageously expensive that no one can afford them except gyms which in turn charge enormous fees for the use of their equipment!"

No one is trying to sell you any machines. Neither can many afford them in home gyms. It is a falsehood that gyms charge exhorbitant fees to use their equipment. Most gyms practically give memberships away. The fees for gym memberships haven't gone up as much as the cost of living has over the last 20 years. Owning a gym is not a very good way to get rich. Arnold never opened a gym and he knew that they were never going to make him much money. He bought real estate, instead, just like Joe Gold told him to do.

" In  my lifetime I have made use of several gyms and the machines were fun because they made me feel stronger than I really was and they had a limited range of motion that made them a lot easier to use than free weights!"

There are many, many brands of gym equipment. Some are not suitable for advanced bodybuilding. However, most gym equipment companies know what the opposition are doing and eventually get the pivot points right. There is a proliferation of companies but a convergence in proper design. Not sure what you mean by a limited range of motion because that is usually one of the strong features of Nautilus and other brands. The only reason some machines feel lighter than free weights is because of cams that reduce the actual weight being lifted. In a lat machine you will be pulling down exactly the amount of weight that is on the stack. If the movement is right it will feel good. No need to lift barbells or try to do chins. Chins are a dangerous exercise once your bodyweight approaches 200 pounds.

" I do believe machines have their place perhaps I would use them for rehabilitation purposes,etc! Vince are you familiar with dinosaur training?? If not I would recommend the book by Brooks Kubik,it does go to extremes at times but it's an iteresting read! Thanks for your input and knowledge,Vince I respect your opinions and comments"

Well, we are debating serious topics and we obviously do not agree on everything. How else are we going to improve our ideas if we don't discuss them? I enjoy tangling with you fellows. A pity we couldn't talk in real time because it would make a difference. No, I haven't read Kubik. I will check out his book as soon as I can.

Machines not only have a place but the evolution of training will see them overtake free weights as the preferred method of training. It has already done that in most gyms. Now we have to work on those stubborn lads who workout in basements and garages! :)

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Guest 86-1005097353

I will now attempt to reply to Kingpin and Genetic Perfection.

"Allthough I do not use a single machine now, I do believe that they have there place.  Calf raises are a good one but that is not to say that they are better, I would just put then as equal. "

As a bodybuilder of 43 years standing I disagree. Seated and standing calf machines are far better than free weights. The only good free weight movement is partner donkey raises. Arnold soon found that he needed two partners. So a limit will soon be reached and the partner has to hold weights or push down on something above to add more resistance.

There have been rotary calf machines, sliding, angled calf machines, and donkey calf machines. There is no equal at all and the machines win big time.

" As for lat pulldowns, when you are a beginner they are particularly good because the resistance can be set low which is something you can not do with chin ups ecspecialy if you are carrying a lot of 'insulation'.  These movements are not a lot different from there free weight alternatives.  But in my opinion....get too attached to them at your peril."

I can't disagree more. My program for upper body now consists of doing only pulldowns to the top of the chest with a parallel handle of 6 to 8 inches wide. That movement works my whole upper body, including abdominals. It also helps my grip. I have managed to remain fairly solid by doing this exercise once a week. I usually do several sets with over 100kg on the stack, and occasionally go a bit heavier. There is absolutely no way I am going to do barbell work again for my lats. I don't recall ever doing them except for lever rowing. It was a primitive machine anyway because it was using a lever.

"Your muscle does not know what you are pushing/pulling against but your joints do."

Muscles, tendons, ligaments, skin and bones are all quite stupid. Only the brain has sensation and is capable of knowledge. Yes, some movements in poorly designed machines will cause pain. You can experience pain and torn biceps doing deadlifts. It surely has nothing to do with the apparatus used and plenty to do with the amount of resistance.

" The pathway of a bench press is not totally vertical as we all know, but with a machine it is."

Again, that is simply not true. Many machines have arcs that simulate a barbell movement. I can mention seated rowing. There are bench press machines that go on an arc and also converge. They seem to be very popular with bodybuilders.  Doing lat pulldowns the user is not totally restricted in the path. With a properly set up combination of apparatus and handle one can get a very good feeling in the lat pulldown movement. It will feel natural.

" When using the FW's when your joint needs to move it is allowed to, yet with most machines the joint has little/no choice of its path way and so goes where the muscle tell it to."

The machines are designed to do a specific job. Take leg extensions. How are you going to do that with free weights? It cannot be done. Therefore properly pivoting machines allow one to do lots of movements that are not possible with free weights. I challenge anyone to get as good an arm workout as can be obtained on my biceps-supinator machine. This machine has two resistances. One for the curl movement and another for the twisting action. They can be engaged simultaneously or individually. The result is amazing tension on the biceps.

"I do not use free weights as a way of maintaining tradition.  Our bodies are designed to lift, push and pull things.  In order to do this, assister muscles are used and strengthened.  If you lift, push, or pull on a machine then you will only be able to lift, push and pull on a machine.  try going back to free weights and you will be back where you started or may even regress."

Well, finally an argument that finds a benefit for free weights. Yes, free weights involved stabilizers and so on. The machine devotees would argue that they want to eliminate that waste of contractions. For athletes there is surely a role for cleans and other movements. Squats haven't been superceded by any machine....yet!

           

Now to respond to Geneticperfection.

"Blue I’m not jumping on any bandwagon."

Nothing wrong with doing that if the bandwagon is supported by true theories!

"I use machines that I consider beneficial to my exercise regime. I don’t just see a machine and use it. I look at how it works, if it gives resistance thru a full range of my motion. I test the resistance (smooth ness of the bearings pulleys etc.) in the machine. I look and see if its just mimicking a free weight exercise and thus has no extra value. I also assess if a machine is necessary to use for the way I wish to perform the exercise. For example if I want to do shoulder presses to full negative failure not using a machine would be extremely dangerous. Not just for me but my training partner (past positive failure he is doing all the lifting). If and when all my criteria are met I will consider using that machine."

Exactly the response that an engineer would make.

" Machines are a great tool too overcome weakness as Kingpin said. My girlfriend can’t do a pull up with her body weight so in the mean time she uses  a counter weight machine (she is 5kg away from doing a bw pull-up). When she reaches that point she will disregard the machine and do only bw pull-ups and ultimately progressive resistance pull-ups."

One of the great machines in recent years is the weight assisted chinning machine. A user can kneel or stand on a platform and do the movement because they can take up to 200 or more pounds off the chin resistance. Girls love doing that. All good gyms should have a couple of these machines. However, not many companies make them with the right groove. Nautilus makes the best kneeling version and Cybex had a good standing model.

What I insist on in these discussions is to keep arguments based on good information and experience. It is clear that our experiences differ a lot. Well, I can see there are different schools concerning training. The free weight vs the machine users. It is a real pity that such a division has occurred in the irongame. Grip devotees are mostly in the free weight school. I wonder if those grippers are considered machines! :)

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Guest StrongerthanArne

Vince,

Why are you waisting your time trying to convert us into the land of chrome and clean hands? The vast majority of us want usable power whereas mashines will, in the way they do not train the stabilizers, make you vulnerable to injuries should you ever have to use your power in the real world. How many of the top guys in the WSM (and WSW) arena do you think work out mostly with fixed machines (other than Conan's Wheel)? These athlets have more usable power than any other people on this planet. On this board we are addicted to usable, natural power, and we don't like being talked at.

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