Concentration Curls -- What Can People Do?

[fightertrainer]

G-man, how big a guy are you? if you don't mind

[Autolupus]

Nice curls!

[mobsterone]

Who do I have to pay to have the half movement called something else?? It's so NOT a concentration curl to make my eyes water with frustration.

I do (having read the posts) understand what arm wrestlers do to train for their sport - the table top curls, the holds with dumbbells, the top range cable stuff and so on but (I watched it earlier this week) G-Man is doing the top 40 percent only (with a decent enough weight I'll admit) with some leaning forward and then back / cheating when the arm extends a little more than he can handle.

Because it's only a short range movement it would make no odds if he used a bench, seat etc instead of the inside of his thigh. The only possible change might be the position of the shoulder in relation to arm position.

If the arm wrestlers here could make up some other name for the movements they do - top range concentration curl position curls is a mouthful I'll admit - I'd be very grateful. Thanks.

[fightertrainer]

Who do I have to pay to have the half movement called something else?? It's so NOT a concentration curl to make my eyes water with frustration.

I do (having read the posts) understand what arm wrestlers do to train for their sport - the table top curls, the holds with dumbbells, the top range cable stuff and so on but (I watched it earlier this week) G-Man is doing the top 40 percent only (with a decent enough weight I'll admit) with some leaning forward and then back / cheating when the arm extends a little more than he can handle.

Because it's only a short range movement it would make no odds if he used a bench, seat etc instead of the inside of his thigh. The only possible change might be the position of the shoulder in relation to arm position.

If the arm wrestlers here could make up some other name for the movements they do - top range concentration curl position curls is a mouthful I'll admit - I'd be very grateful. Thanks.

Mobsterone, I agree with you some what. If you're talking strict concentration curl, yes. BUt in AW people use a lot of body English (no pun intended for English guys here) to create back pressure. In fact I use even more body movement than G-man while my arm rarely extends beyond 100 degree, neither contracts shorter than 80 degree, all body English for me. G-man said it's not really AW curl, but then again you don't curl people arm down to win as you may already know it. I would call it "any how curl" and G-man's goal seemed to be to lift as much weight as possible up and down and "any how". And that's his thing to please himself, it's fine with me whatever he calls it.

[lifesnotfair]

I think there is no point in demanding that they call it something else when they are posting videos of the feats. It would be another thing if we didn't know HOW he's doing them, but now that we've seen it, that's what matters, even if he calls them something else, heh.

It's quite obvious they are not strict concentration curls, where one should straighten the arm completely at the bottom and use no body movement to lift it... but I would think that armwrestler don't have to stay static and extend their arms in their matches, hence training in this manner make sa lot of sense, specially since it allows more weight to be used.

But yeah, maybe it wouldn't hurt to add th word "partial" to every excercise. So this is a partial concentration curl. They do call "power wrist curls" when they don't lower the wrist below parallel.. and a few AW'ers can do one handed dumbells of 300lb in this manner, I've heard. Something that would be unbelievably if they lowered the wrist completely and then brought it back up.

[fightertrainer]

I think there is no point in demanding that they call it something else when they are posting videos of the feats. It would be another thing if we didn't know HOW he's doing them, but now that we've seen it, that's what matters, even if he calls them something else, heh.

It's quite obvious they are not strict concentration curls, where one should straighten the arm completely at the bottom and use no body movement to lift it... but I would think that armwrestler don't have to stay static and extend their arms in their matches, hence training in this manner make sa lot of sense, specially since it allows more weight to be used.

But yeah, maybe it wouldn't hurt to add th word "partial" to every excercise. So this is a partial concentration curl. They do call "power wrist curls" when they don't lower the wrist below parallel.. and a few AW'ers can do one handed dumbells of 300lb in this manner, I've heard. Something that would be unbelievably if they lowered the wrist completely and then brought it back up.

What you're saying is what they use in bodybuilding. Completely straight at the bottom is NOT neccessary in everything else. This is AW board folks, then why not use your body since it's what you do at the table any way. Bodybuilding is not, by far, the epitomy of fitness nor of strength so no need to bring up bodybuilding strict curl here. I am not mad whatsoever, just making my 2 cents. . YOu train the way what you will perform later

[mobsterone]

I did not demand anything - I asked who I have to pay to get it changed. The board is called 'Gripboard' not 'AW Board' or similar. I also do not bodybuild (not since my teens) and did not mention that at all.

As for the 300lb 'curls'. I have seen as much. After a post of mine some months back in which I wanted to know what it was G-man was doing when he made a claim without (at that time) a video or image to back it up I then looked into it more. Usually the maximum amount of weight moved is done with the arm at the very top position. Resting on some kind of pad to protect the elbow from the weight pressing down from the hand via the forearm the weight is then moved back and forth about 5-10 degrees. It works the strongest position of the arm wrestler and allows him to take control or keep control during a challenge between him and another wrestler. The top guys use between 150 and 300lbs.

But I would not call the movement a preacher curl just because the elbow is resting on a pad anymore than (I feel) G-man et al should call a half cheat rep a concentration curl. I'm sure that with the years arm wrestling has been about, far longer than any grip competitions, they might have called some of their sports specific movements something other than the descriptions G-man and others are using.

So, once again, please please call them something else. If for now other reason than for a mad iron fan like me not to think I'm gonna see a huge weight moved more or less full range only to be disappointed. There's plenty of guys claiming 400 lb squats and posting videos on youtube that are not squatting never mind using the weight they claim.

[fightertrainer]

ok , ok you can pay me then I will can it something else just for you, deal? lol. I agree with you Mobs. I like the top part of this "kind" of curl than the bottom part. Alright this is Grip board, but welcome to the AW department, there you have it! I am wary of saying how much weight i can handle, afraid then my a$$ get kick on AW table, then no matter how much it is it won't count. IMO

[pawel r]

In AW it was coached biceps concentration curl from 90 or 85 degree ( so as table biceps curls) - often movement be steered to left shoulder - MOVEMENT OF MIX SIDE PRESSURE AND BICEPS CURLS

movements have to be approximate how the most hereinto near table http://www.armsport.spb.ru/metod6.html looks photo 4 and 7

wrist curl it was coached from simple wrist ( so as table wrist curls)

Edited July 11, 2007 by pawel r

[pawel r]

I do not it know this to describe correctly with words correctly

[mobsterone]

ok , ok you can pay me then I will can it something else just for you, deal? lol. I agree with you Mobs. I like the top part of this "kind" of curl than the bottom part. Alright this is Grip board, but welcome to the AW department, there you have it! I am wary of saying how much weight i can handle, afraid then my a$$ get kick on AW table, then no matter how much it is it won't count. IMO

Cheers!!

[pawel r]

http://armpower.net/images/trening_upload/20040518103706.jpg we in Poland tell thereon : biceps w kacie pracy-biceps in work corner (biceps in work angle)

http://armpower.net/images/trening_upload/...0_11%20copy.jpg

Edited July 11, 2007 by pawel r

[G-Man]

G-man, how big a guy are you? if you don't mind

I am 6' and 270 pounds. I weighed in at 267 on Sunday when I took the video and tend to fluctuate in the 260-277 range.

Someone on another board asked if my arms "were a little small" to be lifting that kind of weight. I took that as a compliment. I never measure my left - which is smaller - (not uncommon for arm wrestlers) but my right is about 21" cold and I believe around 22" pumped.

[G-Man]

G-Man is doing the top 40 percent only

Top 40% out of what - a 360 degree movement? LOL - Isn’t that a little like saying Alexey Voevoda's one-armed pulled up is "only top 5% only"?

Especially with the heavier weight, you will notice the top part of the biggest DB plate is well BELOW my knees. On a table curl, the bottom part of the plate would be the ABOVE the table (which is of course above your knees). Also, this is in the toughest part of the movement - anyone can hold a huge weight and rock it at the bottom or rock it at the top and get a very limited benefit.

I don’t see any need to call it something else when I put it on-line for everyone to see. Do they call the world bench press record a “bench press partial with a heavy shirt that dramatically increases what it would otherwise be raw”?

Edited July 11, 2007 by G-Man

[G-Man]

I recall reading that Bill Kazmaier has the world record for the cheat curl with 440 pounds. I read from another source, that it was not 440 but only 180 kilos - or a mere 396 pounds. This is still very impressive. However, has anyone seen a video of this? Is it available on-line?

I am wondering too, that if Kazmaier’s form is real loose with this “cheat curl” should we consider renaming it a “reverse grip clean”?

[mobsterone]

G-Man is doing the top 40 percent only

Top 40% out of what - a 360 degree movement? LOL - Isn’t that a little like saying Alexey Voevoda's one-armed pulled up is "only top 5% only"?

Especially with the heavier weight, you will notice the top part of the biggest DB plate is well BELOW my knees. On a table curl, the bottom part of the plate would be the ABOVE the table (which is of course above your knees). Also, this is in the toughest part of the movement - anyone can hold a huge weight and rock it at the bottom or rock it at the top and get a very limited benefit.

I don’t see any need to call it something else when I put it on-line for everyone to see. Do they call the world bench press record a “bench press partial with a heavy shirt that dramatically increases what it would otherwise be raw”?

As you'll know there are a million debates online which pretty much argue that very point - raw vs equipped - all the day long. The range of a real strict concentration curl is going to be close to 180 degrees - from the dead hang bottom position (most people stop just short) to the dumbbell almost touching thr face. Let's split the difference and say 160-degrees. Your bell, maybe cos of the big plates, doesn't go that far up (even with the lean back) not does it go that far down (esp with the lean forward). The range doesn't matter to you because it is being done to improve your arm when arm wrestling no more, no less.

I recall reading that Bill Kazmaier has the world record for the cheat curl with 440 pounds. I read from another source, that it was not 440 but only 180 kilos - or a mere 396 pounds. This is still very impressive. However, has anyone seen a video of this? Is it available on-line?

I am wondering too, that if Kazmaier’s form is real loose with this “cheat curl” should we consider renaming it a “reverse grip clean”?

You joke but PM Joe Roark (GB member and Mod over at www.ironhistory.com a sister site to the GB) and ask him. No one has seen such a lift every take place. In his book on arm development Manfred Hoeberl made a similar claim (200-kilo cheat curl) but there was no photo, no video and no witnesses - the now dead writer Steve Neece offered USD$10000 to the first person to do it with him as a witness. I've trained for 27 years, ran a magazine, run a supplement company and have access to the internet. I have magazines and books amounting to about 5000 items so are pretty good on the knowledge of these things.

Now regarding yourself I said I had watched your video and described the form. You mention the top of the biggest plate going 'well below my knees'. Look at your own video and see how when the plates get as low as you describe how you lean forward and how when the dumbbell is at the top you lean back - it's almost a rocking motion. The whole point of a full range concentration curl is that it is done with no cheat - hence the 'concentration' part. That means no (what Americans call) 'body english' or leaning back and forth. When, in my earlier post, I mentioned your effort I described it as a 'good weight' but not a concentration curl. You would be the first to admit that if you could use the weight and equipment you use over the full range and with no lean back and forth you'd be a hell of a strong man - I know I would admit the same.

Now as to other movements using dumbbells and similar to curls and used by arm wrestlers I did describe the top position curl - elbow on a bench or pad and using a cable or dumbbell it is allowed to move 5-10 degrees from vertical away from the body and is then pulled back. I said 300 pounds (there are photos online via google etc) has been used. Another movement which helps with stopping the hand being pinned to the table is table curls. The hand and bell / cable handle lays completely on the bench / surface and the body comes towards the hand at the same time as you pull from the table. As the bell or handle comes up the body goes back until the upper arm and shoulder are more or less touching the bench / table. I think that another one is where, usually using a cable, the arm is vertical and then pulled down to the surface (as in the cable curl we see Stallone doing in the cab of his truck in the movie 'over the top'). Is that enough evidence of my knowledge of what arm wrestlers do? Are any of those movements 'concentration curls'?? No. They are sports specific movements like what you are doing but not how you named it. Don't make me find videos or photos to illustrate the points.

I'm also pretty sure that what you are doing is making you better on the table when it counts - which is what you are doing it for and what matters. But you aren't doing a concentration curl are you? Don't make me write out a full length description of the way it's supposed to be done. I've watched what you did - it's good for what it was intended for and I've asked for you to change the name from 'concentration curl' to something else more like what you are actually doing.

So who do I have to pay??

[mobsterone]

One more - I like the idea of the 3-inch thick bar cos it'll mimic the size of the hand you'll be wrestling.

[lifesnotfair]

Nice reading, we get the point.

C'mon, stop arguing guys, wouldn't want this to get agressive or something.

Garret: I think maybe you could call it "partial concentration curls" in your signature, or wherever you upload it, next time? It will not make less of your feat if you do describe it as a partial excercise, it's just one word. and it'll make everyone (ie: mobster) happy

Just out of curiosity Garret: what can you do nowdays on a max single, in the style mobster describes? (at least 160 degree) using a thin handle?

[mobsterone]

I'd guess around 70-80lbs - it'd be quite a feat if he did.

[G-Man]

Garrett: I think maybe you could call it "partial concentration curls" in your signature, or wherever you upload it, next time? ... Just out of curiosity Garrett: what can you do nowdays on a max single, in the style mobster describes? (at least 160 degree) using a thin handle?

I won't call it a partial because it is not a true partial - if I wanted to call it a "partial" concentration curl, I would balance 235+ pounds on my leg and rock it back and forth for a few inches - as a compromise, I did update the exercise name.

A super-strict "concentration curl" would be an exercise more to develop the biceps than to develop side pressure - which is the ultimate goal in doing these ...

As far as max, doing it "bodybuilder style", I don't know much believe it would be much heavier than what was stated above as 70-80-pounds feels ridiculously light to me right now.

Edited July 11, 2007 by G-Man

[jad]

I like how Mobster at least recognizes that G-Man is doing it for AW. When I do AW stuff in the gym, people just assume I don't know how to perform the exercise correctly. It's amazing what you can pick up on when people see you have earbuds in. I guess they don't realize they're not always on.

[fightertrainer]

http://armpower.net/images/trening_upload/20040518103706.jpg we in Poland tell thereon : biceps w kacie pracy-biceps in work corner (biceps in work angle)

http://armpower.net/images/trening_upload/...0_11%20copy.jpg

Pawel, in the second link show the pic of the guy holding a dumbbell and leaning to his right side. This is what I actually do with dumbbell, but I sit down instead of standing up. Leaning to one side train side pressure very good to a degree, depend on how much you lean. I then rock it up and down slowly with my body and turning my forearm to hammer position on top.

G-man, you're much bigger than me. It 's hard to tell how big someone is on the internet with no body to compare

Edited July 12, 2007 by fightertrainer

[mobsterone]

I like how Mobster at least recognizes that G-Man is doing it for AW. When I do AW stuff in the gym, people just assume I don't know how to perform the exercise correctly. It's amazing what you can pick up on when people see you have earbuds in. I guess they don't realize they're not always on.

I've seen some sights in the many gyms I've trained in and most of them didn't have a clue what they were doing.

[G-Man]

When I was growing up, I recall reading about the Barbarian Brothers, David and Peter Paul. Under one picture was the caption, “Strongest Bodybuilders on the planet … does alternate dumbbell curls with 150-pounds.”

Needless to say, by the time I was 23, I did not find that feat so incredible.

Now, everyone knows the form is very loose – heck, even the video is posted on Youtube. Yet, no one has backed down from calling it a curl – and I have no problem calling it a curl either.

Then there’s the “World’s Strongest Powerbodybuilder”, Jimmy Pellecia. A number of years ago, he was photographed doing alternate dumbbell curls with 150-pounds as well – but seated [!!!]. I don’t think anyone doubts that the form was very loose. No one has a problem calling that a curl -- and neither do I.

Then there’s the elusive Chuck Ahens from the 1960’s. He was reportedly witnessed by several well-known people (Dave Draper and Bill Pearl I believe) doing alternate dumbbell curls with a 200-pounder in each hand.

I have never heard of anyone else coming remotely close to that and I have seen no pictures or videos to support this extraordinary feat. Yet, as you might imagine, if this feat is even possible, I cannot imagine it being done without a lot of what some might call “body English.” Yet, no one backed down from calling Ahen’s feat a “curl” either.

I can probably think of some more examples but these are a few to come to mind.

Edited July 12, 2007 by G-Man

[mobsterone]

All good clean and fair examples. But they don't post here and you do. That said (cos I may well be as old as yourself and so remember every single one) the twins used to use a hammer style of curling and it was full range - plus they were for all intents and purposes showmen (they even did an exhibition at Disney). They did what many on youtube call curling but is more or less a dumbbell drag across the body using a hammer grip.

Jimmy the Bull was well known for what has been called (I used it before) body English. His curl was done with more cheating that either of us has ever used and his most notorious lifts were the partner assisted bench presses (1000++ lbs) using world record holder deadlifters and guys with massive traps for some reason As for Chuck...

You said 'no one has a problem' but I referred you to Steve Neece (RIP) and Joe Roark (deffo still with us) and his site Ironhistory. There are many, many pages (16+ the last time I looked) in that forum on Chuck. Claims for his curling power began as overhead press, then dumbbell bench and then became curls. Chuck also never actually made one single claim for his strength. It was always by others. If at all unsure about this debate please, as previously requested, contact GM member Joe. He has reams of info on this topic. Chuck is still alive I think but refused to comment when contacted by Joe. There are many well-known writers and peoples whose names you'd know who are members of IH and all are well respected authorities. Some wanted the story to be true but have come to accept it is not. They cannot be listed as the many of who you stated 'no one has a problem'.

But we are now debating for the sake of it as you yourself have renamed what you do and I have made many pointers to the effect that what you do has a specific purpose.

Edited July 12, 2007 by mobsterone