Are We Killing Our Hands?

[heatwave13]

Wow, Rick, thanks for opening up a little bit for us. I can totally relate to what you're saying. I also have some lingering or "nagging" type of pain, and like you, hitting the weights can often be an all-or-nothing mindset. For years, I had the "go hard or don't show up" type of mindset, but after hobbling around on sore knees and a rotator cuff injury that left me barely able to brush my teeth or pick up my two year old son, I was asking myself....."why am I putting myself through all this?" Where is the balance in this whole thing?

Even my wife would ask me......"heatwave, what are you doing to yourself? You're not training for football, you don't compete in OL anymore, so why are you putting yourself through these brutal workouts?"

I am also strongly considering dumping the weights and doing more bodyweight/grip stuff.............something to think about.

[climber511]

After reading Rick's post I thought I'd chime in a bit. I believe I've been lifting perhaps longer than anyone on the board - 47, going on 48 years now and still going - I'm kind of like that little pink bunny but older and slower. I think the reason I've been able to keep going so long is variety. I train for and do so many different things that I've spread the stress out over many body parts over the years. Might I have been stronger if I had stuck to one thing for 47 years - well, I'm not so sure. I think I would have certainly gotten stronger for a while but then I believe something similiar to what happened to Rick would have happened to me also - some big injury from the concentrated loading would have probably struck. Lifting weights and training of all types is supposed to increase health, and it will, but like anything, you can do too much of a good thing. Balance and the development of a very even strength across and around all your joints is critical to the ability to keep enjoying a highly physical lifestyle. The trouble starts when we decide to work one (or just a few) to extremes and don't take the time to maintain the balanced strength necessary for joint health etc. And then there's just the fact that pushing your body to the outer limits of it's abilities is dangerous pure and simple. By no means would I ever say not to be competitive and to test your limits but I will say to be smart about it and realize the dangers and that some things are much more dangerous than others. Maximum lifts done every training session is an invitation to disaster - even (especially) the best athletes in the world have a yearly plan that cycles up and down and involves an "off" season - they know it's not possible to be 100% all the time for very long.

[dubthewonderscot]

Even my wife would ask me......"heatwave, what are you doing to yourself? You're not training for football, you don't compete in OL anymore, so why are you putting yourself through these brutal workouts?"

Your wife actually calls you heat wave?

for the record, i'm not dubthewonderscot to my wife. lol

she would raise an eyebrow derisively should I request it. lol

[heatwave13]

Even my wife would ask me......"heatwave, what are you doing to yourself? You're not training for football, you don't compete in OL anymore, so why are you putting yourself through these brutal workouts?"

Your wife actually calls you heat wave?

for the record, i'm not dubthewonderscot to my wife. lol

she would raise an eyebrow derisively should I request it. lol

LOL, naw, she doesn't really call me that. She does have a few other names for me, though.........to her, heatwave is just some character that I become when I'm online.

[Scott Styles]

Weights should keep the joints healthy first, everything else is a bonus. Cardio should keep the heart healthy first, everything else is a bonus.

If you're not going to train like Climber511 describes above, you're probably better off not training. That's regardless of whether it is strength or endurance work, really. There a plenty of runners out there that have crippled themselves. It's possible to be unable to walk pain free while weighing under 150lbs - I've been there. You can tape your feet to mask the pain and keep running though.

It's stupid to train so hard you injure yourself, regardless of what the method of training is. I think people do such things because training becomes an outlet for channeling dis-satisfaction with other aspects of their life. The more unhappy you are with the rest of your life, the harder you work at the meaningless outlet you are good at. It's not disciplined training, it's a mental problem that can destroy your body.

I found as I molded other aspects of my life to my liking, the need to prove myself through physical activity greatly diminished. Sure it'd be cool to be crazy strong or look like a bodybuilder, but I'm not willing to give up the other things I enjoy for it. Those who are important to me certainly don't value my worth based on physical criteria such as that. I'm far from the best shape of my life, and I've never been happier with my workouts or physical condition. With no pressure to achieve, I can finally just enjoy going through the motions. If I stop enjoying it, I'll do something else. I might even choose to do nothing. To me, that's a healthy relationship with training.

[lifesnotfair]

Great posts by Rick, Climber, Scott, heatwave, etc... makes a person like me (who started lifting just a couple of months ago) think about this a lot. But I guess I don't have to worry about that stuff just YET.

One thing I do ask myself right now is the following: you all keep saying not to max out very often. By max, you literally mean your 1-Rep Max, right? Because I'm doing a 5x5 routine in which the 3 workout sets are with a weight that's very heavy to me, but not my 1RM.. but still heavy, not easy at all to lift, sometimes I have to let go some grunting to finish a rep if you know what I mean. That's not maxing out, is it?

Second question: Does the maxing out theory apply to every bodypart?? Because, for example, think of the very famous Negatives with grippers, which I've started doing a week ago... I don't know about you guys, but if I don't max out on those, I must do something very close to maxing out. Of course, I train the grippers 2, and sometimes 3 times a week (ideally two, but sometimes I can't resist). And I do these negatives.... and I know other people did them too. If maxing out is too bad, those guys doing 60 negatives with a #4 are gonna need new hands 5 years from now. ... or do the hands, being a much smaller muscle group and less demanding than, say, squats/deads, can take maxing better?

[Scott Styles]

Putting your full effort into a 5x5 should be fine, just don't push so hard you seriously compromise your form. You're also not likely to be able to put your full effort into a 5x5 every workout on the same exercise for a year straight without burning out. You'll have to vary it over time.

Negatives on the grippers are intense and put your hands at higher risk than just doing reps. That doesn't mean they will certainly ruin your hands though. Building up slowly over time goes a long way to reduce the risk for injury down to the point where it is acceptable. I personally am comfortable doing the occassional set of negatives on a Super Master, but know if I move up to the Grand Master, it makes my knuckles ache in a bad way. When I couldn't close the #1, I couldn't do a negative with the #2. The body adapts.

You also need to consider what happens if you lose control of the weight. A big part of the risk of a max attempt is getting the body into a bad position where the joints cannot handle the weight safely. That is much less likely to happen on the grippers than a deadlift. With the grippers, you can reduce this risk even further by putting a choker around the handles. I've found a negative with the gripper choked to an inch or so is much easier on my hands than one with an unchoked gripper.

[heatwave13]

Lifesnotfair,

Yeah, by "maxing" I am talking about going all out for a 1 rep max--for example in the deadlift or squat. I train "heavy" at around 80% of max, but I keep the volume low. I only do a few sets, then I call it a day. I train hard, but I leave enough in the tank so that I COULD do more if someone demanded it of me. For me, heavy, low volume work has allowed me to avoid burn out. But, as for maxing out with a 1 rep max, I may only do that a couple of times per year. I have made steady progress without really maxing out by just adding on a few pounds here and there to my weights......so, over time, my # has increased.

In my experience, I try not to "nerve up with adrenaline" very often. I guess this helps to preserve the Central Nervous System......at least somewhat.

As for the grip work, I do probably go for a few more maximums than with my other lifts. But, even with that I vary the sets, reps, negatives, etc. Some days I do more work than on other days while some days, i don't really do much at all. I just try to listen to my body, or hands.

I hope my post makes some sense......

Edited November 29, 2006 by heatwave13

[lifesnotfair]

Thanks Scott and heatwave. BTW, it'd be pretty funny if my wife called me lifesnotfair ;-)

[Dan Cenidoza]

Lots of good posts in this thread!

I especially like this...

It's stupid to train so hard you injure yourself, regardless of what the method of training is. I think people do such things because training becomes an outlet for channeling dis-satisfaction with other aspects of their life. The more unhappy you are with the rest of your life, the harder you work at the meaningless outlet you are good at. It's not disciplined training, it's a mental problem that can destroy your body.

I do not believe we are causing ourselves damage by training grip, at least we don't HAVE to be! That goes for any kind of training. I believe you can lift heavy & hard well into old age IF you go about it PROPERLY.

As for what proper is, that's something you have to figure out for yourself. But rest assured, if you constantly find yourself getting injured, it's safe to say that you're doing something wrong.

[climber511]

First - I don't believe 1 RM training is a bad thing - but you can't do it all the time, and you shouldn't do it when you're just starting out or until you have trained for a while and gains have quit coming. If you start a good reading program of for example the top Olympic lifters, one thing you will quickly notice is that they have a yearly and multi yearly training plan. How many of us actually have a "plan" of any kind that lasts over a few weeks? They change variables throughout the year, ramping up volume, intensity etc according to the competition cycles, personal recovery etc but more importantly, taking it back down and allowing full recovery of all systems and work on weaknesses. Young (in age or training age) lifters are not doing specialized routines in the beginning - which is the biggest single problem I see in grip - no foundation being laid before starting the highly stressful routines such as KTA - negative training, etc. Don't start using advanced techniques until needed, you'll have better long term progress and fewer injuries.

Now I'm certainly not saying that you shouldn't work extremely hard but you should prepare yourself beforehand and not think you can make continuous gains because it just doesn't work that way. Read, read, read about the programs used by the very best - consider if you believe they are using "restoratives" or not - but look at their year long plan at the very minimum and lifetime plan if possible.

"Learn from the mistakes of others - you can't live long enough to make them all yourself"

[StalwartSentinel]

First - I don't believe 1 RM training is a bad thing - but you can't do it all the time, and you shouldn't do it when you're just starting out or until you have trained for a while and gains have quit coming. If you start a good reading program of for example the top Olympic lifters, one thing you will quickly notice is that they have a yearly and multi yearly training plan. How many of us actually have a "plan" of any kind that lasts over a few weeks? They change variables throughout the year, ramping up volume, intensity etc according to the competition cycles, personal recovery etc but more importantly, taking it back down and allowing full recovery of all systems and work on weaknesses. Young (in age or training age) lifters are not doing specialized routines in the beginning - which is the biggest single problem I see in grip - no foundation being laid before starting the highly stressful routines such as KTA - negative training, etc. Don't start using advanced techniques until needed, you'll have better long term progress and fewer injuries.

Now I'm certainly not saying that you shouldn't work extremely hard but you should prepare yourself beforehand and not think you can make continuous gains because it just doesn't work that way. Read, read, read about the programs used by the very best - consider if you believe they are using "restoratives" or not - but look at their year long plan at the very minimum and lifetime plan if possible.

"Learn from the mistakes of others - you can't live long enough to make them all yourself"

Awesome post, Chris!

[Soilworker]

First - I don't believe 1 RM training is a bad thing - but you can't do it all the time, and you shouldn't do it when you're just starting out or until you have trained for a while and gains have quit coming.

Yes you should. The best thing for an over-enthusiastic grip newb to do is go apeshit on max singles just like Kinney!

If you start a good reading program of for example the top Olympic lifters, one thing you will quickly notice is that they have a yearly and multi yearly training plan. How many of us actually have a "plan" of any kind that lasts over a few weeks?

Me. I levered on a strict program (with moderate reps on "cycles" akin to oly training) for the better part of a year. Now I am levering double the weight I did at the beginning w/ 0 injuries, 0 aches and pains, 0 torn anythings.

Edited December 9, 2006 by Soilworker

[jklove41]

At 60 I did no grip work and had pain in both hands each morning. I could hardly make a fist. I started training then with the trainer and have worked up through the coc #2 with a set at age 65. My hands have increased in size, strenth and flexibility since age 60 due to grip training. I haven't experienced morning pain for several years.

Ken

[JoeGrip]

At 60 I did no grip work and had pain in both hands each morning. I could hardly make a fist. I started training then with the trainer and have worked up through the coc #2 with a set at age 65. My hands have increased in size, strenth and flexibility since age 60 due to grip training. I haven't experienced morning pain for several years.

Ken

Now that is what I am talkin about.

[MARKR]

At 60 I did no grip work and had pain in both hands each morning. I could hardly make a fist. I started training then with the trainer and have worked up through the coc #2 with a set at age 65. My hands have increased in size, strenth and flexibility since age 60 due to grip training. I haven't experienced morning pain for several years.

Ken

Great post Ken thats very inspirational

Mark

[denver]

Here is a great article from the jornal of anatomy that take a scientific look at this very topic.

Journal of Anatomy Article

To sum is up...High difficulty, high intensity rock climbing does not increase incidents of osteoarthritis and does increase the size of the hands.

Although it doesn't address the sport of grip training directly it provides reasonable scientific evidence to make conclusions from.

[Zach]

Sorry to dig this old thread up, but thought I'd continue after finding this in search rather than start a new post.

Anyway, like the opening poster, I myself am also a medical student (2nd year). Last few nights I've been doing an umpteen thousand word write up on osteoarthritis, primarily that which affects the knee joint, but stumbled across the following that specifically associates increased grip strength with higher rates of osteoarthritis.

"Increased grip strength has been found to be associated with high rates of osteoarthritis (OA) in proximal hand joints like the MCP and base of the thumb, suggesting that increased loading on the basis of powerful muscle contraction can actually damage joints."

Osteoarthritis, 2nd Edition by Kenneth Brandt, Orthopaedic Surgeon.

I then went up and dug up the actual study he cited, titled, 'Grip strength and the risk of developing radiographic hand osteoarthritis: results from the Framingham study.'

This is the link to the whole article Grip strength and Osteoarthritis but if you dont want to read all of it this is the summary from the study:

Conclusion: Men with high maximal grip strength are at increased risk for the development of Osteoarthritis in the PIP, MCP, and thumb base joints, and women, in the MCP joints. No association was found between maximal grip strength and incident OA in the DIP joints of men or women.

Anyway being an avid gripper myself (albeit still on the 2) I found this of interest and thought some of you might too.

[kogba]

Well, everything can hurt you or benefit you, more or less. E.g: studies say some red wine now and then is good for the heart, but more causes damage in various organs and also makes you an alcoholic. Even water in very high volumes harms your body, poor nutrition in third world countries causes so much malfunctions and obesity is a problem in rich ones.

Anyway, I really doubt there's an absolute truth in this "conclusion" study of the doctor(no disrespect): my sister spent years on studying osteopathy in the lab, and the conclusion her team made is that regular exercise (not ONLY good nutrition) is the key for maintaining strong bones, healthy joints and muscles, etc.(how the muscles are used affects the bones and joints).

That being said, of course when you' re trying to break the limits of your body and very often, maybe you're going to have problems at some time, sooner or later. But that is one thing and another is to say that no exercise at all, (even very-very moderate and easy-going) is going to give you problems.

We aren't born to sit on a chair or to being afraid to run as kids(so our knees and joints will be healthier), or eat just enough food(carefully selected) to survive only to live 30% more, this isn't life, IMHO(being dead already but not knowing it).

So, I don't deny that being a professional athlete at top level has a price to pay, but so is for those that don't train at all at their lives and are constantly sicling or try to figure if it's going to rain and afraid of everything all the time.

Edited September 1, 2009 by kogba

[Magnus]

I think it's worth pointing out we aren't your typical "increased grip strength" test subjects, either.

[bdckr]

Sorry to dig this old thread up, but thought I'd continue after finding this in search rather than start a new post.

Anyway, like the opening poster, I myself am also a medical student (2nd year). Last few nights I've been doing an umpteen thousand word write up on osteoarthritis, primarily that which affects the knee joint, but stumbled across the following that specifically associates increased grip strength with higher rates of osteoarthritis.

"Increased grip strength has been found to be associated with high rates of osteoarthritis (OA) in proximal hand joints like the MCP and base of the thumb, suggesting that increased loading on the basis of powerful muscle contraction can actually damage joints."

Osteoarthritis, 2nd Edition by Kenneth Brandt, Orthopaedic Surgeon.

I then went up and dug up the actual study he cited, titled, 'Grip strength and the risk of developing radiographic hand osteoarthritis: results from the Framingham study.'

This is the link to the whole article Grip strength and Osteoarthritis but if you dont want to read all of it this is the summary from the study:

Conclusion: Men with high maximal grip strength are at increased risk for the development of Osteoarthritis in the PIP, MCP, and thumb base joints, and women, in the MCP joints. No association was found between maximal grip strength and incident OA in the DIP joints of men or women.

Anyway being an avid gripper myself (albeit still on the 2) I found this of interest and thought some of you might too.

I took a look a the cited article, and the title reflects the discussion - it only looks at radiographic evidence of osteoarthritis. It did not do any assessment of symptoms.

There is a very poor correlation between radiographic evidence of osteoarthritis and symptoms. That means that just because you can see it on Xray doesn't mean it hurts. In fact, Xray appearance is a poor predictor of how much it will hurt or impair function. Xrays can confirm that someone's pain is from osteoarthritis. Xrays cannot be used to predict if someone has significant (or even any) pain or loss of function.

Besides the fact that more than 75% of the study subjects were lost to follow-up, looking at radiographic evidence without looking at symptoms or function doesn't really tell us very much at all.

edited to add:

What we do know is that increased grip strength is associated with a decrease in all-cause mortality.

Edited September 1, 2009 by bdckr

[Autolupus]

I want to live a life where I have worn out every single body part from having LIVED to the absolute limit possible for me.

If the engine doesn't explode as you cross the finishing line then you haven't tuned it enough!

...or as someone once said:

"Don't tip toe through life to reach deaths door safely!

Smash through them pearly gates at 140mph... sideways!"

[33wes]

Sorry to dig this old thread up, but thought I'd continue after finding this in search rather than start a new post.

Anyway, like the opening poster, I myself am also a medical student (2nd year). Last few nights I've been doing an umpteen thousand word write up on osteoarthritis, primarily that which affects the knee joint, but stumbled across the following that specifically associates increased grip strength with higher rates of osteoarthritis.

"Increased grip strength has been found to be associated with high rates of osteoarthritis (OA) in proximal hand joints like the MCP and base of the thumb, suggesting that increased loading on the basis of powerful muscle contraction can actually damage joints."

Osteoarthritis, 2nd Edition by Kenneth Brandt, Orthopaedic Surgeon.

I then went up and dug up the actual study he cited, titled, 'Grip strength and the risk of developing radiographic hand osteoarthritis: results from the Framingham study.'

This is the link to the whole article Grip strength and Osteoarthritis but if you dont want to read all of it this is the summary from the study:

Conclusion: Men with high maximal grip strength are at increased risk for the development of Osteoarthritis in the PIP, MCP, and thumb base joints, and women, in the MCP joints. No association was found between maximal grip strength and incident OA in the DIP joints of men or women.

I've read that many mistake arthritis for injuries and various microtrauma that never healed. While some cases may be some form of arthritis, those who have balanced lifting regimes that include maximal weights, at times, but include different exercises, sets/reps/poundages and properly rehab injuries are less likely to get arthritis. Having said that, I'll add that the more specialized the lift or activity (bench specialist, arm wrestling, etc), I believe the more difficult it is to achieve balanced strength and joint health.

[MalachiMcMullen]

Does a 350lb SHW powerlifter with a 2700+ total live to 80? Everything you do has risks.

[Zach]

Hi,

Just wanted to say I didnt mean to offend anyone with my post above! All the quotes and the 'conclusion' are from the article, not my own opinions! Just thought some of you may find it useful to read.

I've now read through most of this thread (from page 1) and the ones after my recent post and its at least refreshing to know a lot of people are aware that there may be some link with osteoarthritis at least, rather than be in complete denial.