mobsterone Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 I see that the Pegasus topic was closed. It has been brought up before about making your own inexpensive versions of equipment. This is, as wanna posted, not frowned apon but it is well worth remembering that the dollars of site sponsor and the donations of GB members is what keeps a busy, packed and fast moving forum free. They also donate prizes to many of the competitions that are promoted here. Try not to bite the hand that feeds you by selling knock offs, discussing how bad or expensive such items are and so on. Think of it like standing in the bosses office at work while he's there saying he sucks. He may well do, but he pays your wages and so at least do the comments out of his hearing. Or stick, in this case, to PM's. Free speech is all well and good but sponsors are trying to make a living and it's straight forward disrespectful to knock them the way it occasionally happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmitri Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Very well said! Amen to that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1stCoC Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Very well said! Amen to that! Thanks Mob for telling it like it is ! Our budget for sponsoring sites like this come from the sales of our equipment. If our customers support us we in turn can provide support for fine forums like this for all gripsters to enjoy. Yes, one can copy something that took years of work,thought and dedication..... is it fair ?... it's just like stealing to me. With people like you Mob doing it "right" the world of grip WILL flourish! Thanks brother! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perrymk Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 For the most part I agree with you and I try to respect the rules. But for now I am going to take the position of devil's advocate. Better yet, I should ask you to. I hear that in law school one is taught to argue both sides in order to be really effective at arguing any side. There may be more than two sides to this. Much of this is being hashed in another thread so I'll try not to cover what is there. At what point is it unethical to discuss homemade equipment? I frequent a backpacker forum that has sponsors and a section specifically for discussion of homemade equipment. This includes tents, stoves, sleeping bags, and other items which are similar to items sold by sponsors. Some items might even be considered knockoffs. Some of the sponsors participate in the homemade forums. I believe two of the sponsors actually got their start there. They now have successful businesses. I can almost agree that something as unique as the Formulator might warrant some protection, but then why doesn't the inventor patent it? How about something like a thick bar? There are a number of manufacturers of thick bars. Is it unethical to discuss a homemade version of something for which there is already significant competition? Think about this. Making your own recordings at concerts is usually frowned upon. But the Grateful Dead encouraged it and their popularity or ability to make a living from music didn't seem to suffer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted March 8, 2006 Author Share Posted March 8, 2006 Money. Backpacking is more popular than grip and the money involved in patents is enormous. Plus I think that sponsors have asked. Lastly respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMunger Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Like I said in the other thread, the best combination of value and quality will always win out in the end. Eleiko may make some outstanding bars, but there are plenty of people who have no need or resources for a $$$$ bar. On the other end of the spectrum, there are people in the world who take scrap metal and cast the ends into concrete. Capitalism will always be Darwinistic. There is no point in being jealous or angry about someone making a similarly functioning device out of 2x4's, because that person would 99.99% of the time NOT be a potential customer. In fact, cheap home copies could ultimately benefit the people who sell quality versions because a person gets to test the concept, and might decide they want one that doesn't give them slivers, or have nails working loose, etc etc. And lastly, IF something that is being marketed is simple enough that it can be effectively created at home by a high enough percentage of the market to affect its profitability, then it's just a pet rock. Not a viable product, and no amount of kindness, pity, or respect will do anything to change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danegarreau Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Agree completly with CMunger. If your product is good enough and cheap enough then people won't buy knockoffs. This is a capitalist society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted March 8, 2006 Author Share Posted March 8, 2006 I'll remind you all again - they sponsor this site and keep it free. Think of the ads at the super bowl and how much they cost. Now think just what the advertizers would have to say if you or I could get our product advertized to the same audience for $10.00 as opposed to what they pay. They would withdraw their ads. This can happen here. You'll note I have not defended the pricing etc of the sponsors products nor have I said that they cannot be copied and or made cheaply only that it would be respectful not to slate them on a forum that they help pay for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 CMunger makes a good point: those that are/were making knockoffs likely weren't potential customers anyway. I made a formulator but if I had never seen plans for a HM one, there is still no way I'm dropping that kind of money just to work the extensors. It has nothing to do with product quality, percent markup, etc.. I just don't care enough about extensors to drop that kind of money on it. If your business is getting hurt by knockoffs; market it more effectively (talk about all the things the knockoff can't do, market it to a wealthier segment), lower your price, etc... Just because something is patented or copyrighted doesn't mean you can't make your own version, you just can't make it and sell it. That said, Mobster is right, it's less than intelligent to bash sponsor's products or prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Styles Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 I'd hate to see honest discussion on the quality of product or service from a company curtailed just because they are a sponsor. That defeats the point of having an open forum. And I personally would rather pay directly to support a product I use (the Gripboard) than to purchase products from a sponsor at a premium so that some of that money indirectly pays for a product I use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobsterone Posted March 8, 2006 Author Share Posted March 8, 2006 I'd hate to see honest discussion on the quality of product or service from a company curtailed just because they are a sponsor. That defeats the point of having an open forum.And I personally would rather pay directly to support a product I use (the Gripboard) than to purchase products from a sponsor at a premium so that some of that money indirectly pays for a product I use. If you PM wanna he'll tell you how to do that. It may well be neccessary soon. Plus it's not an open forum, there are site rules and you have to be a member. A completely open forum would allow anyone to post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamidon Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Neither FHS or people who make the Formulator are sponsors of the board, check the banner ads at the top. Sponsorship should not be the reason you cannot discus how to make something of your own. If it is wrong to talk about knock offs then it shouldn't matter if it is a sponsor or not. I am not 100% sure I agree that talking about these things is even wrong (yes I know it is against the rules on the gripboard, I am just not sure why) I actually wonder who of the current sponsors is even complaining about knock offs? And while we are at it, it would be really funny to see PDA complain about Formulator knockoffs that look more like PDAs device than the formulator since these items pre-date his. People make homemade thickbars, our sponsors sell those. There are plenty of other examples where the homemade stuff is a direct copy of an actual device that is sold. You can also see where the sponsors sell very similar products is it OK for them to copy things, and then complain about others who copy them? Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminator Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Hey Greg, check your history lesson here. John Wood and FHS sponsored the Gripboard and supported the game.....until one of your buddies pressured Wannagrip to remove him as a sponsor. Funny enough, John also stepped up and purchased ad-space in Strong Magazine...a fine publication and a fine guy John Beatty is. I don't think anyone else stepped up. Mobster made a great post, and it should have been left at that.....respect which was brought up is sorely lacking from a lot of folks here. It's a shame John Wood wasn't afforded the same respect that PDA gets while he was a sponsor. Neither FHS or people who make the Formulator are sponsors of the board, check the banner ads at the top. Sponsorship should not be the reason you cannot discus how to make something of your own. If it is wrong to talk about knock offs then it shouldn't matter if it is a sponsor or not. I am not 100% sure I agree that talking about these things is even wrong (yes I know it is against the rules on the gripboard, I am just not sure why) I actually wonder who of the current sponsors is even complaining about knock offs? And while we are at it, it would be really funny to see PDA complain about Formulator knockoffs that look more like PDAs device than the formulator since these items pre-date his. People make homemade thickbars, our sponsors sell those. There are plenty of other examples where the homemade stuff is a direct copy of an actual device that is sold. You can also see where the sponsors sell very similar products is it OK for them to copy things, and then complain about others who copy them? Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamidon Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Hey Greg, check your history lesson here. John Wood and FHS sponsored the Gripboard and supported the game.....until one of your buddies pressured Wannagrip to remove him as a sponsor.Funny enough, John also stepped up and purchased ad-space in Strong Magazine...a fine publication and a fine guy John Beatty is. I don't think anyone else stepped up. Mobster made a great post, and it should have been left at that.....respect which was brought up is sorely lacking from a lot of folks here. It's a shame John Wood wasn't afforded the same respect that PDA gets while he was a sponsor. I have to be honest, I have NO idea what you are talking about. If "one of my buddies" had John removed I have No idea who you are referring to. My point was, that if it is wrong to talk about knockoffs, then it shouldn't matter if they are a sponsor or not. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Styles Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 There is no need to argue semantics. All things considered, this forum is as close to open as you can get while maintaining the bare minimum of control needed to ensure civility. As far as I know, sponsors do not hold influence over the rules of the board or discussion moderation. I think it would be a mistake for things to be any other way. I have offered and will continue to offer my support towards this end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Piche Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 "until one of your buddies pressured Wannagrip to remove him as a sponsor." You are completely wrong here. I don't want to get into this on a public forum and frankly people should be checking their facts before making statements as fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roark Posted March 8, 2006 Share Posted March 8, 2006 Let me illustrate this with sandbags. And yes, this is an extreme example. If I were to need a sandbag, I would want a specific weight. I would not really care whether the bag was filled with sand, or steel shot, or gold. But I would not pay the price- even if I could- to have a sandbag filled with gold coins. There comes a point where practicality trumps top-end offerings. Regarding Peg2 or the Formulator I have no idea if either is superior to the other in function- and I will not have an idea after my Peg2 arrives (was shipped today), until I at some point try the Formulator. It strikes me that there surely is not much difference in performance- but that is an assumption. And when two items appear to be equal, why would I spend 50% more? For a short time, FHS and PDA were both sponsors here at the same time, so a choice had to be made during that period- both sponsors supported the forum, so was one 'speaking against' one sponsor by buying the other's product? When I was single and poor I used a piece of pipe and slid holed-bricks onto it for curls. Worked fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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