Set Vs. No-set

[Sean Dockery]

On no set being "stronger", I thought my example and Heath's example would be a no brainer. It seems so commonsensical to me. I suppose we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I will say again that if Johnny and Jimmy are standing in the same room, and Johnny sets and closes x gripper, then hands the gripper to Jimmy and Jimmy no sets it; my immediate reaction is to credit Jimmy with more strength. I suggested you be honest and agree with me, because I thought that perhaps you were unwilling to give credit for greater strength. It's apparent that you've thought this issue thru quite a bit more than I, and if you are convinced of your position then I'll respectfully disagree.

Sean,

Given the same gripper closing it further out takes more strength. I agree. I only point out that if someone can no set a griper and you cannot but you can set a a tougher gripper and close it and the no set person can not close it no set or with a set. I would argue only that he who closed the tougher gripper is stronger. Does this make sense?

Sure that makes sense as long as biggest gripper is your crucial measure of strength.

[climber511]

Not to add fuel to the fire but the setting process is a skill that many don't have. I can close my #3 in a choker at 1", 1 1/4", and 1 5/8" , and sometimes at 1 3/4" between the handles but can't set it and close it. It's the hand position I achieve during the set that is different than the position I can get in the choker for me. So is someone who can only close a #3 at a 1" or parralell set that he sets himself stronger or does he have the ability to position (set) the gripper in his hand better than I can. Better setter or stronger?

[Bearcat 74]

Not to add fuel to the fire but the setting process is a skill that many don't have. I can close my #3 in a choker at 1", 1 1/4", and 1 5/8" , and sometimes at 1 3/4" between the handles but can't set it and close it. It's the hand position I achieve during the set that is different than the position I can get in the choker for me. So is someone who can only close a #3 at a 1" or parralell set that he sets himself stronger or does he have the ability to position (set) the gripper in his hand better than I can. Better setter or stronger?

Good question. I would say that he is a better setter than you, the power to close a gripper is there for you just no setting technique. But I have also closed grippers in chokers that I could not with a set. I guess the best way to figure out your situation is to have 3-4 grippers choked to 1 5/8" and see who wins, take the set out of the equation, which is similar to Greg's idea of a 1" wide gripper.

A 4 page thread without arguement, this is nuts. If this goes on much longer I am going to randomly select someone to call names............

[jad]

Ok, let's say I have my BBSE and my hard BBE here. The heavens open and I set and shut my BBSE, John attempts a set and gets it to 3/8", I attempt a no set on my hard BBE, and I get it to parallel, John picks it up and grinds it no set, there is no way that I could sit there and say, "well I closed a BBSE and he didn't I am stronger."

Is this more along the lines of what you are saying? If I am off base, bring me back.

Why not? You closed the bigger gripper. If no setting is supposed to be so much stronger, strong through the full ROM, blah, blah, blah.... why couldn't he blow through your set max when he allowed himself a set? If nothing else your example is showing there are two different strengths but if he allows himself the advantage of the set and can't match you then you're stronger.

[gamidon]

Not to add fuel to the fire but the setting process is a skill that many don't have. I can close my #3 in a choker at 1", 1 1/4", and 1 5/8" , and sometimes at 1 3/4" between the handles but can't set it and close it. It's the hand position I achieve during the set that is different than the position I can get in the choker for me. So is someone who can only close a #3 at a 1" or parralell set that he sets himself stronger or does he have the ability to position (set) the gripper in his hand better than I can. Better setter or stronger?

Closing in a choker is always easier for me. This is because I waste no energy holding the gripper or pulling it in. When I set a gripper I use my closing hand to pull it and assist the setting hand. At the start of the close the gripper provides tension on the closing hand. In a choker this is not the case.

[AP]

They're two different exercises, like benching with a barbell or with dumbells. If you train primarily with the barbell and compare lifts with someone about the same strength who trains mostly with dumbells you get this kind of result - he's better at his lift, you're better at yours.

If you are a powerlifter, you might say that only the barbell lift matters - this is kinda what Greg and Jad are saying - the highest lift in the premier event is the stronger person. But when we talk generally about who is stronger its hard to tell, you could compare a total for the two lifts which is think is kinda what Heath is saying. I think that comparison is fair if they have about the same hand size.

I think the MM set is definite more fair when comparing several people, which is why it’s used for the Mash Monsters.

[Bearcat 74]

Ok, let's say I have my BBSE and my hard BBE here. The heavens open and I set and shut my BBSE, John attempts a set and gets it to 3/8", I attempt a no set on my hard BBE, and I get it to parallel, John picks it up and grinds it no set, there is no way that I could sit there and say, "well I closed a BBSE and he didn't I am stronger."

Is this more along the lines of what you are saying? If I am off base, bring me back.

Why not? You closed the bigger gripper. If no setting is supposed to be so much stronger, strong through the full ROM, blah, blah, blah.... why couldn't he blow through your set max when he allowed himself a set? If nothing else your example is showing there are two different strengths but if he allows himself the advantage of the set and can't match you then you're stronger.

Why not, because the way I see it he closed a gripper through the full range of motion and I did not. Hand size out of the equation, down to strength against strength he beat me in the entire range. If setting and closing a stronger gripper and blah blah blah made me stronger then I should've been able to beat him. You are right they are two different strengths, and I really don't see how anyone can argue that a full range close is less impressive. I want to close big grippers, and I will close them with a set, but I am much more impressed with someone no setting something heavy then a set.

This happened, someone is handed x gripper , sets it to parallel and gets it to 3/16-1/8", another guy s handed the same gripper later on and he no sets it to 1/4", who is stronger? The guy who set it and got it 1/8"? If you are asking my opinion, there is no comparsion, the no set guy.

[jad]

This happened, someone is handed x gripper , sets it to parallel and gets it to 3/16-1/8", another guy s handed the same gripper later on and he no sets it to 1/4", who is stronger? The guy who set it and got it 1/8"? If you are asking my opinion, there is no comparsion, the no set guy.

Can the no set guy close it with a set or even get it closer than 1/8"? If so, then yes he is stronger, if not, then I don't see how he can claim to be stronger. If the set gives the guy such a huge advantage then why can't the no set guy, who's supposed to be stronger, beat the set guy, when given the advantage? IMO, they are two different strengths, assuming handsize is eliminated, I just don't understand why people that know grippers feel the no set is so much more impressive. If someone can no set your max set close that's one thing, especially if they don't have huge hands, but if they can't TNS or set close your max, then what's the big deal?

[TelegraphKey]

I think the MM set is definite more fair when comparing several people, which is why it’s used for the Mash Monsters.

I'm starting to see why that's a very fair point. It seems unreasonable to me, now that I've thought about if for awhile, that someone with smaller hands should be forced to certify under an arbitrary Credit Card Set.

What is the, or is there a, standard measure of the sweep of the CoC grippers? I looked at the gripper I have with me (trainer) and it's 2-11/16" or just under 2-3/4". And parallel, it appears to be just about exactly 1". Is that standard with all CoC grippers, both full sweep & at parallel?

[Bearcat 74]

This happened, someone is handed x gripper , sets it to parallel and gets it to 3/16-1/8", another guy s handed the same gripper later on and he no sets it to 1/4", who is stronger? The guy who set it and got it 1/8"? If you are asking my opinion, there is no comparsion, the no set guy.

Can the no set guy close it with a set or even get it closer than 1/8"? If so, then yes he is stronger, if not, then I don't see how he can claim to be stronger. If the set gives the guy such a huge advantage then why can't the no set guy, who's supposed to be stronger, beat the set guy, when given the advantage? IMO, they are two different strengths, assuming handsize is eliminated, I just don't understand why people that know grippers feel the no set is so much more impressive. If someone can no set your max set close that's one thing, especially if they don't have huge hands, but if they can't TNS or set close your max, then what's the big deal?

I have no idea if he could get it closer with a set, seeing as how he was right with the guy who set it, he moved it about 2" more inches, I would conclude he's stronger, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. The reason it is more impressive is because when you pick up a gripper an wrestle it into place and close with a set most people who know grippers say, "man, that was a good close." When you pick the same gripper up, wiggle it around in your hands and smash the shit out of it no set, most people who know grippers say, " any 4 letter word you can think of, that was awesome!" But, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

[climber511]

In simple terms - if you no set the gripper - you close it the whole way with one hand. If you set the gripper, you close it half to 2/3 of the way with two hands, then finish up with one hand.

[jad]

I have no idea if he could get it closer with a set, seeing as how he was right with the guy who set it, he moved it about 2" more inches, I would conclude he's stronger, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

The first 2" is a joke on most grippers (depends on spread), it's after that and whether or not you can overcome that leverage on the last inch or so as it slips lower and lower in the hand, especially if you have small hands and you have to start low to begin with, at least that's my experience with TNS stuff. I doubt the set guy could only sweep the gripper an inch or less, crediting the no set guy with 2 more inches is a little misleading. I don't even train no-set and I can sweep my #4 to parallel on a very good day and I still can't no set my #3. In your example, we're really talking about 1/8" (1/4 vs 1/8). What if the set guy no set the gripper to 3/8"? So they're both about 1/8" better than the other at their respective styles.

The reason it is more impressive is because when you pick up a gripper an wrestle it into place and close with a set most people who know grippers say, "man, that was a good close." When you pick the same gripper up, wiggle it around in your hands and smash the shit out of it no set, most people who know grippers say, " any 4 letter word you can think of, that was awesome!" But, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

If it's the same gripper, sure, I'm with you 100% but if you MMS a BBSE or #4 and then somebody else TNS a #3 or an Elite, I know which one would get the bigger reaction out of me.

[1stCoC]

I for one agree with Bearcat. I didn't know what in the heck a "set" was in my heyday and after seeing a"set" and trying it for myself it is in my mind like someone said compairing a 400lb. benchpress to a 400lb. (the same weight) lockout. I do add that technique comes to bear in mastering a nutcracker type gripper and the few times I observed a person who for the first time saw a #3 and just squeeze it down to shut or near shut I was ultra impressed with the "pure" strength exhibited.Logically, either the grippers should be re-made with the handles 1" apart for everyone's ease or the gripper like the Inch Bell or blob be regarded when attempted "for what it is". I have seen a considerable drop in new #3 CoC's since the distance rule even in a year where even more people try and are aware of them and I think that is good.I am not saying one way over another is right or wrong because who's "rule" is right anyway? But, what I am agreeing with is that a gripper shut using a full sweep close be it with a credit card, or no set is a much more difficult and worthy achievement than being done with a deep set. I think real life experience and if need be scientific study of the actual work and force production being done will bear this out.RS

[jad]

I for one agree with Bearcat. I didn't know what in the heck a "set" was in my heyday and after seeing a"set" and trying it for myself it is in my mind like someone said compairing a 400lb. benchpress to a 400lb. (the same weight) lockout. I do add that technique comes to bear in mastering a nutcracker type gripper and the few times I observed a person who for the first time saw a #3 and just squeeze it down to shut or near shut I was ultra impressed with the "pure" strength exhibited.Logically, either the grippers should be re-made with the handles 1" apart for everyone's ease or the gripper like the Inch Bell or blob be regarded when attempted "for what it is". I have seen a considerable drop in new #3 CoC's since the distance rule even in a year where even more people try and are aware of them and I think that is good.I am not saying one way over another is right or wrong because who's "rule" is right anyway? But, what I am agreeing with is that a gripper shut using a full sweep close be it with a credit card, or no set is a much more difficult and worthy achievement than being done with a deep set. I think real life experience and if need be scientific study of the actual work and force production being done will bear this out.RS

It's a shame the GB dyno didn't go over better, I think this would have been a great "pure" strength exhibition and much better indicator of crush than the grippers. I know I lost interest when I saw you couldn't adjust the handles It would have been interesting to see how the no-set kings fared against the MMset studs, assuming adjustable handles of course.

[Bearcat 74]

The first 2" is a joke on most grippers (depends on spread), it's after that and whether or not you can overcome that leverage on the last inch or so as it slips lower and lower in the hand, especially if you have small hands and you have to start low to begin with, at least that's my experience with TNS stuff. I doubt the set guy could only sweep the gripper an inch or less, crediting the no set guy with 2 more inches is a little misleading. I don't even train no-set and I can sweep my #4 to parallel on a very good day and I still can't no set my #3. In your example, we're really talking about 1/8" (1/4 vs 1/8). What if the set guy no set the gripper to 3/8"? So they're both about 1/8" better than the other at their respective styles.

If it's the same gripper, sure, I'm with you 100% but if you MMS a BBSE or #4 and then somebody else TNS a #3 or an Elite, I know which one would get the bigger reaction out of me.

The first 2" are easier, a joke, don't know about that one. I am not talking about a gripper 2 5/8" wide, all my good stuff is around 2 7/8" plus, so sweep is an issue. I can sweep my 4's to parallel, i can't sweep past that because, I am aimply not strong enough, throw the sweep out, set it and I can get it closer.

Ok, I set a gripper to 1" and get it to 1/8", John comes up and no sets that same gripper to 3/8", in my mind, my opinion, he is stronger. If I power clean 300lbs and Doc comes along and cleans 315lbs with a perfectly executed full squat olympic clean, I think I will be stronger, I pulled less weight, but I pulled it a hell of a lot farther.

If someone were to come and MM set my BBSE, they would be strong and they would get a great reaction, for someone to no set my BBE they would get much more of a reaction because they did it the hard way on a hard gripper. I set grippers so it's not like I am some lifting purist. Chalk, check, set, check, swing on curls, check, so it's not like I am blind to the other side.

[Scott Styles]

This is a credit card set with 7" hands:

http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?act=mod...cmd=si&img=1064

Using a set that wide to compare crushing strength is like using a 3" barbell to compare supporting strength. Or face pinches on a 50lb blob to compare pinch strength. Yeah, you can see who is the best at the activity being tested, but it does not provide a full picture of overall hand strength.

[Clay Edgin]

Some random nuggets/responses:

If you're not getting much help out of a set, then you're not doing it right.

My no-set strength always goes up faster when I train with a 1" set or in a choker.

Robbie V might not get a lot out of a deep set because he has 9" hands, but he still sets it to 1" like the rest of us.

He who no-sets the toughest gripper, wins.

A no-set close is as much about technique as setting the gripper. Wiggling the gripper in your hand won't allow you to set it deep, but it will allow you to set it.

A little piece of me is still aching to certify on the #4 with the new rules.

[Scott Styles]

That reminds me, the charts from the set/no-set/hand size thread are in my gallery:

http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?act=mod...cmd=si&img=1419

http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?act=mod...cmd=si&img=1416

[jad]

Ok, I set a gripper to 1" and get it to 1/8", John comes up and no sets that same gripper to 3/8", in my mind, my opinion, he is stronger. If I power clean 300lbs and Doc comes along and cleans 315lbs with a perfectly executed full squat olympic clean, I think I will be stronger, I pulled less weight, but I pulled it a hell of a lot farther.

If someone were to come and MM set my BBSE, they would be strong and they would get a great reaction, for someone to no set my BBE they would get much more of a reaction because they did it the hard way on a hard gripper. I set grippers so it's not like I am some lifting purist. Chalk, check, set, check, swing on curls, check, so it's not like I am blind to the other side.

So if you are also an expert olympic cleaner but find that 310 is all you can get are you still stronger than Doc? I would say that John Wood probably knows how to set a gripper, so technique isn't an issue. That said, I haven't heard of him grabbing a #4, setting it, and ripping off 4 or 5 reps....maybe he can?? I'm just saying if the set is such an advantage or is viewed as not as strong then why can't the no-set studs use a set and just mop up the MMS guys? If no set is the "hard way" then why can't they use the easy way and clean up? I know you're no purist I watched your vids many a time to perfect my set Just curious, in your opinion would you consider John Wood the best crusher in the world, since he's largely regarded as the best no setter at least from what I've read on the boards?

[Bearcat 74]

Just curious, in your opinion would you consider John Wood the best crusher in the world, since he's largely regarded as the best no setter at least from what I've read on the boards?

Well, to say that you are in the best in the world at this stuff is foolish. I would bet there are people playing with stuff we consider excellent, the people potential is tapped but it is a slow flow.

Having said that, knowing what I have seen John do to my grippers and how they compare to some of the stuff that has been closed, he is way up there in gripper strength. As to who is #1 for what we know, the only way to find out is to put everyone in a room with the same grippers and find out. People get too caught up with tags, so and so closed a elite, well what was it like? I have one that is up towards M3 territory, I have attempted one that was average 3 territory, I guess both people closed a BBE, but if I had a wimpy BBE I sure as hell wouldn't be telling the world about it. i would close it and buy a couple more. The only grippers I have one of are a T,1, M3 replica, WC, and SE. If I close my SE I will buy more to see how mine rates. I remember when I first closed my 3, my thoughts were, WOOOOO HOOOO and I wonder how hard this thing really is. I had two more at the house a couple weeks later, I wanted to close as many as I could because I didn't want to have one put in my face and me not shut it. I think more and more people are wanting to shut a gripper so they get their name by it. I want my name on the MM5 list, but I will know how hard the gripper is and decently how I stack up because of the other 3 guys that shut it. If you could buy MM5's and certify, I guess I would own 10 of them, because I wouldn't want to meet someone who had one and get it parallel and look like a liar. I'm sure some are tough, I know of at least one that is in average BBE range. Closing that MM5 replica would be a good close, but I would be embarrased to have a MM5 title and say go to Iowa and met Bill and try his and parallel it.

Just my thoughts

[jad]

Dave M gave me a great little nugget of wisdom at the BBB about all these replicas and the accuracy: he said just make sure you can double it (parallel reps) and you should be good.

[Bearcat 74]

Dave M gave me a great little nugget of wisdom at the BBB about all these replicas and the accuracy: he said just make sure you can double it (parallel reps) and you should be good.

From what little I have fooled with replicas, mine is the only one I have touched, and from what I have read, that sounds about right.

[Bob Lipinski]

One other thing-

I was doing a set almost before the term was even coined. Sometimes I think people with larger hands might not even understand- Closing it with a set seemed like a natural thing to do because my first reaction to the 3"+ spread #2 I got in the mail was "I can't even fit my hand around this damn thing!"

Sure, no sets are impressive, but I liken it to lifting a blob by the face- This lift is impressive, but really isn't a test of hand strength for a large percent of people out there, it is in large part a test of hand size. And really, the same thing is true when it comes to no set closes or credit card closes. Really, a guy with 8" hands doing a no set with a #3 isn't that impressive to me. It means a strong grip, but nothing unbelievable.

And I am not a "whiner" when it comes to this crap- I am still going for 2 45's, a blob lift, an inch lift, etc. If I have to work harder, good. I even put no set gripper as an event in my last comp. Of course, all the grippers had a 2.5" or less spread

I'm just saying if the set is such an advantage or is viewed as not as strong then why can't the no-set studs use a set and just mop up the MMS guys?

This is how I have always thought.

[deaner]

This is a credit card set with 7" hands:

http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?act=mod...cmd=si&img=1064

Using a set that wide to compare crushing strength is like using a 3" barbell to compare supporting strength. Or face pinches on a 50lb blob to compare pinch strength. Yeah, you can see who is the best at the activity being tested, but it does not provide a full picture of overall hand strength.

Have you tried the IM tug.. Just kidding, they want as much for those as they do for a regular gripper.

I hurt a finger messing with the no-set, and it still bothers me sometimes. I'm not a big fan of the no-set, it is impressive, but if your finger is sticking straight out and youre trying to hook it with the tip and get a good squeeze you are asking to injure something, like youre ring or pinkie. Its nothing like bench lockouts vs regular to me because in a regular bench you are not in an akward potentially dangerous position at the bottom when you really crank out the torque.

Edited February 25, 2006 by deaner

[jad]

This is a credit card set with 7" hands:

http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?act=mod...cmd=si&img=1064

Using a set that wide to compare crushing strength is like using a 3" barbell to compare supporting strength. Or face pinches on a 50lb blob to compare pinch strength. Yeah, you can see who is the best at the activity being tested, but it does not provide a full picture of overall hand strength.

might as well squeeze it enough to hook your thumb and then try to pinch it shut, low as that gripper is on the hand.