Number Of Reps To Gain Stegth On Coc Grippers

[rjkd12]

How about practicing shooting free throws with a heavier basketball?  Would that be a good way to increase your shooting accuracy/range?

←

I agree with nagual. Since a free throw is much more of a skill thing than a strength thing, a heavier ball would not help out as much.

Now if you were going for the longest shot ever made, maybe a slightly heavier ball would help to give you the strength to shoot far, but that is just a guess.

With the conjugate method, I think one of the main reasons for that method is so you can train with close to your 1RM w/out poorly affecting your CNS. You are increasing the strength of those muscles individually so together you can have a better lift. Also with that method, if you have a lagging bodypart you can bring that up to speed and still tax your other muscles.

[John Wood]

How about developing the muscles by making them stronger first then later on once you have recovered, practicing a particular skill so that you get good at it. Would that be a good idea?

[rjkd12]

How about developing the muscle sby making them stronger first then practicing a particular skill later on so that you get good at it.  Would that be a good idea?

←

Heh... these are very specific questions. There are so many skills out there that it is hard to say.

I would assume that practicing them in tandem would be best. If you want to clean a heavy kettlebell, I would think that practicing skill with a smaller bell, and simultaneously working the cleaning muscles to get stronger would be best.

With these specific questions, are you getting to anything? Do you have a bigger question in mind or something?

[rjkd12]

Hmmm.. I couldn't edit my last post. To clarify a bit, the amount of strength in a skill makes a big difference.

For a free throw, a skill with very little strength involved, I would say definetly not. For something inbetween, you would want to practice strength and technique in tandem. And for something mostly strength, like maybe tire flipping, there is a baseline strength required and depending where you are you might want to hit the gym a bit before attempting flipping a tire.

[Bill Piche]

How about developing the muscles by making them stronger first then later on once you have recovered, practicing a particular skill so that you get good at it.  Would that be a good idea?

←

I think that would be an excellent approach. In fact, wouldn't a basketball player want to be very efficient in the weight room and not spend time learning complex moves there when other exercises are probably just as effective and get to the stinking GYM and shoot the rock. And, do it over. And over. And over.

[Sybersnott]

I think that would be an excellent approach. In fact, wouldn't a basketball player want to be very efficient in the weight room and not spend time learning complex moves there when other exercises are probably just as effective and get to the stinking GYM and shoot the rock. And, do it over. And over. And over.

←

Oh Wanna... you're setting us up. There WAS a player who did just that.

He did great work in the weight room, and he was pretty good on the basketball court as well. Maybe you've heard of him - his name is Michael Jordan.

[rjkd12]

How about developing the muscles by making them stronger first then later on once you have recovered, practicing a particular skill so that you get good at it.  Would that be a good idea?

←

I think that would be an excellent approach. In fact, wouldn't a basketball player want to be very efficient in the weight room and not spend time learning complex moves there when other exercises are probably just as effective and get to the stinking GYM and shoot the rock. And, do it over. And over. And over.

←

True, basketball requires much more athleticism than shooting a free throw so the weight room would help. My only problem is with this statement,

and not spend time learning complex moves there when other exercises are probably just as effective

It sounds like you are saying that time in the gym will help you get better at basketball ALONE, it is "Just as effective as complex movements". I think that you need both, you need the gym time to get stronger, and then the court time to work on your "complex moves".

[chuck]

I have 30+ years of athletic experience, which includes competitive football, wrestling, gymnastics and running, as well as rock climbing, 1 and 3 meter board diving, cliff diving, power lifting, olympic lifting, body building, kettlebells, aikido and yoga and work as a professional stuntman, dancer, mime and juggler.

My considered opinion is that a certain amount of foundational strength is necessary to succeed at learning the skills of any sport or movement system in the most efficient manner. How much strength is needed varies with the basics of the sport in question. Beyond that foundational strength development, however, it is then better to develop strength simultaneously as you develop the higher levels of skill needed to be competitive. Having developed strength (and flexibility, endurance, agility and all the other athletic attributes) in many ways and for many purposes I have come to believe that how one develops that strength is much more diverse and much more individual than most of this particular thread would indicate.

As regards skill transfer; in my experience, the more movement patterns you master, the more quickly you can learn other, even seemingly unrelated movement skills. This is one reason that the Eastern block countries had all their athletes do tumbling training in the beginning of their careers, no matter what sport they ended up competing in. Hence the great standing backflips even some heavyweight Oly lifters do after a successful lift.

And yes, there is value in handling implements in training which are different in weight or size to what you will use in competiton. One example involving fine motor skills and eye/hand co-ordination: When I was woking on 5 ball juggling, I found it useful to use larger and heavier balls in my three ball juggling. The strength gained helped increase my throw distance and speed and the extra effort required to keep the timing made it easier for me to control and see the pattern needed for 5 balls. After using the heavier balls, I had finer control with the normal ones.

[nagual]

I have 30+ years of athletic experience, which includes competitive football, wrestling, gymnastics and running, as well as rock climbing, 1 and 3 meter board diving, cliff diving, power lifting, olympic lifting, body building, kettlebells, aikido and yoga and work as a professional stuntman, dancer, mime and juggler.

←

I'm guessing a lot of strength is needed for working as a mime?

I agree with mastering lots of movement patterns helps learning new ones.

For instance, kids that get into athletics early, generally get a better hand-eye coordination, and have better motor-skills later in life.

I believe there are some studies on this very subject.

But how do you mean that developing strength is much more diverse than most of this thread would indicate? Could you specify?

Actually, I believe that strength training (or rather, optimal strength tranining) can be highly individual. Just taking myself as an example, the routine that works absolutely best for me, is not

that common. I usually get funny looks in the gym, as I do a lot of isometric work, for instance.

[rolf]

Regarding slow vs. fast twitch muscle fibres...

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading that slow-twitch muscle fibres haven't diminished in their ability to contract even after five minutes of exercise. Therefore, even a 30, 50, or 100RM isn't working solely slow-twitch fibres. If it were, running a marathon would be pretty damn impossible.

Disclaimer: IIRC.

Rolle

[Bill Piche]

It sounds like you are saying that time in the gym will help you get better at basketball ALONE, it is "Just as effective as complex movements". I think that you need both, you need the gym time to get stronger, and then the court time to work on your "complex moves".

You misinterpreted what I said. Often, athletes are made to spend time being competitive LIFTERS in the weight room. They are not competitive lifters. They are athletes who have other sports where they truly need the skill development and time to develop those skills. So, the complex moves for lifting is what I was referring to. Basketball players don't need to be competitive lifters for example. Strength training is a must. It just must be efficiently done and safely. There is no way strength training should enhance the chance of injury on the field or court. It should help prevent it.

[Bill Piche]

Getting this back on topic.

Progressing on reps on COC grippers is probably easier when you have more grippers to work with.

[nagual]

Regarding slow vs. fast twitch muscle fibres...

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember reading that slow-twitch muscle fibres haven't diminished in their ability to contract even after five minutes of exercise. Therefore, even a 30, 50, or 100RM isn't working solely slow-twitch fibres. If it were, running a marathon would be pretty damn impossible.

Disclaimer: IIRC.

Rolle

←

I'm not really sure about this, or rather, when exactly slow-twitch muscle take over entirely, but I'm guessing it depends on the load. I.e. against a relativly light load it is a lot easier to sustain continuous contractions.

But you are suggesting that if fast-twitch muscle is used, even slightly, that it is the culprit as far as tiring muscles out is concerned?

I'm not sure about this. I'm guessing there is some truth to this, but that you also can train the slow-twitch muscle fibre to sustain a greater load for a longer time.

[nagual]

Getting this back on topic. 

Progressing on reps on COC grippers is probably easier when you have more grippers to work with.

←

Right. If you only do reps, any means of micro-loading (having a large amount of grippers close in toughness would qualify as such) is a great way of progressing.

How about if you do negatives and isometrics? Is a slightly harder gripper than your target gripper more effective, or a lot harder gripper, or?

Edited January 2, 2005 by nagual

[rolf]

Nagual,

All I know is that muscle fibres are recruited on an as-needed basis from slowest to fastest as the load increases. Another IIRC: I remember reading the all-slow-twitch range is below 30 %1RM. Could be wrong, obviously. From the five-minute time limit I think we can deduce that if you tire out in less than five minutes, at least some fast-twitch fibres are in play. This is all very theoretical, naturally, as in any real-life situation you have a host of variables.

Rolle

[nagual]

Nagual,

All I know is that muscle fibres are recruited on an as-needed basis from slowest to fastest as the load increases. Another IIRC: I remember reading the all-slow-twitch range is below 30 %1RM. Could be wrong, obviously. From the five-minute time limit I think we can deduce that if you tire out in less than five minutes, at least some fast-twitch fibres are in play. This is all very theoretical, naturally, as in any real-life situation you have a host of variables.

Rolle

←

This makes sense, since force production during one contraction is dependant on how many muscle fibres are recruited at the same time. Perhaps when training with a moderate load, say 40 reps, then part of the fast-twitch muscle fibres are recruited, and they are the ones that tire?

(Also there is the fact that you have two types of FT muscle fibre, IIA and IIB, of which the first is can maintain a contraction longer, and thus are more endurant).

But then I'm wondering how the slow-twitch muscle fibre actually get's trained....

[rolf]

But then I'm wondering how the slow-twitch muscle fibre actually get's trained....

I haven't the faintest idea.

Rolle

[rjkd12]

What dictates fiber recruitment is intensity. At low intensities (something you can do for a long time, and under 30%) is mostly slow twitch. As intensity increases the load switches from slow twitch to fast twitch.

But then I'm wondering how the slow-twitch muscle fibre actually get's trained....

The slow twitch muscle gets trained by doing activites that do not have a lot of intensity. Such as running a marathon. You end up with more mitochondria, more efficient energy useage and the body ends up getting better with transporting energy via the bood (such as HDL cholesterol).

I think we can deduce that if you tire out in less than five minutes, at least some fast-twitch fibres are in play.

Yes. If you ever have to try really hard (i.e. have a lot of intensity) you are training your fast twitch. A long distance runner starts out (after they have reached steady state or are basically "warmed-up") almost using exclusivly slow twitch fibers. Then as the slow twitch tire, or they start to run out of oxygen and fat as a fuel, the IIa fibers begin to take over and use more glycogen as fuel. Then only at the very end, the IIx fibers take over. The IIx fibers can only do a small amount of work and tire extremely quickly so they are only the last few seconds.

I say IIx because in humans they have types I, IIa, and IIx. This is kinda nit-picking, but as an FYI, the original studies that showed IIa and IIb were on an animal. It was shown later that human fastest twitch muscle fibers were even more glycolytic and were named IIx becase they are different than the fiber types in the animal that was orignally studied.

[nagual]

The slow twitch muscle gets trained by doing activites that do not have a lot of intensity. Such as running a marathon.  You end up with more mitochondria, more efficient energy useage and the body ends up getting better with transporting energy via the bood (such as HDL cholesterol).

←

Right, but I was thinking more along the lines of how much work is needed to then train the slow-twitch muscle fibre, if in fact they don't tire. Or can you bring the slow twitch to exhaustion?

I'm guessing you can, and the more they tire, the more fast-switch muscle fibre take over, as you said. There is also the matter of lactic acid buildup, but I'm not sure whether that happens in slow-twitch muscle...

I've read about typ IIx muscle fibre aswell, but were those not mainly found in eye muscle and other obscure muscles (from a strength training perspective... "Hey, look at me flexing my eyelid!" )?

If we are talking recent strength recearch here, a recent study show that you do not break muscle tissue down, and then adapt by rebuilding it and more. This has been the general theory and by some considered the reason for DOMS.

The muscle seems to become prepared for more work instead... indicating that the idea that the muscle needs rest to rebuild and grow bigger, might be false. In fact, hypertrophy research shows that a muscle that is continuously activated will grow and get stronger without needing rest.

It might be then that other factors are the cause for rest needed between workouts.

But that might, again, be a bit of topic?

Edited January 3, 2005 by nagual

[rjkd12]

If we are talking recent strength recearch here, a recent study show that you do not break muscle tissue down, and then adapt by rebuilding it and more. This has been the general theory and by some considered the reason for DOMS.

The muscle seems to become prepared for more work instead... indicating that the idea that the muscle needs rest to rebuild and grow bigger, might be false. In fact, hypertrophy research shows that a muscle that is continuously activated will grow and get stronger without needing rest. 

It might be then that other factors are the cause for rest needed between workouts.

But that might, again, be a bit of topic?

 

←

Hmmm... even if it is off topic, this is very interesting. I have actually seen "damaged" rat muscle (by extreme amounts of eccentric work) vs. control muscles and the "damaged" muscles are definetly damaged and do not produce as much force. Also after they are let to recover they recover first at the points of most damagel, mildly indicating that those parts are "protected" more than the parts not damaged as bad.

If you have any links to papers that show that rest is not needed in hypertrophy of muscle I would be interested in reading that.

[nagual]

If we are talking recent strength recearch here, a recent study show that you do not break muscle tissue down, and then adapt by rebuilding it and more. This has been the general theory and by some considered the reason for DOMS.

The muscle seems to become prepared for more work instead... indicating that the idea that the muscle needs rest to rebuild and grow bigger, might be false. In fact, hypertrophy research shows that a muscle that is continuously activated will grow and get stronger without needing rest. 

It might be then that other factors are the cause for rest needed between workouts.

But that might, again, be a bit of topic?

 

←

Hmmm... even if it is off topic, this is very interesting. I have actually seen "damaged" rat muscle (by extreme amounts of eccentric work) vs. control muscles and the "damaged" muscles are definetly damaged and do not produce as much force. Also after they are let to recover they recover first at the points of most damagel, mildly indicating that those parts are "protected" more than the parts not damaged as bad.

If you have any links to papers that show that rest is not needed in hypertrophy of muscle I would be interested in reading that.

←

I'll see if I can find the study. It's a swedish study, done in 2004 I believe. I think it discusses that the established ways of measuring muscle tissue damage are incorrect... or something to that effect.

For now here is another interesting study (it's used to further a "product" so take the conclusions with a grain of salt): http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/HSrepo...ndex.html#art_2

Edited January 3, 2005 by nagual

[nagual]

I found it. http://www.diva-portal.org/umu/theses/abst...sql?dbid=105%20

I was a bit off, because it is about DOMS, and that the way we have interpreted data about DOMS and changes in muscle after training is incorrect.

Studies in animals have swayed the conclusions previously. The problem is that studies in animal muscle, or rather, the muscle damage induced was done with electric stimuli, which is not the same as training stimuli. Also, no previous study thought about the fact that the muscle might get inflammated from the biopsi itself (which is used to examine the muscle).

Edit: However, it is interesting to note that the study was performed on untrained individuals (as most studies are). This may or may not be significant.

Edited January 3, 2005 by nagual

[speedy]

That makes sense to me if I compare it to my bench workout. I start at a weight and do two sets of 8, and add 5lbs on each side and do another 2x8, then add 5 and then do a 2x5, and then add one more set of 5lbs each and do 2x5. So if you have grips that differ within 5 to 10lbs in resistance, I see that working.

Getting this back on topic. 

Progressing on reps on COC grippers is probably easier when you have more grippers to work with.

←