Clay Edgin Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 So I've spent the last couple of days melting the PM system, getting in touch with every red bender possible, especially those who bend double overhand. I asked 3 questions - 1) do you bend reds overhand? 2) What is your best deadlift? and 3) Do you think your body type is suited for deadlifting? The reason I asked these questions is because I wanted to see if there was a link between a person's body type and what style of bending they are successful with. First of all, thanks to everyone who took the time to humor me and respond. I appreciate your time very much. There are 21 known red benders on the Gripboard alone! -21 red benders (some not certified) -Out of those 21, 17 bend double overhand -The average deadlift for those 17 people is 495lbs (rounding up to actual barbell plates) -Out of those 17, all but 2 said that they believe they are built for pulling because they have relatively long arms. -Out of those 21 red benders, 5 of them can bend reds DO and with a reverse grip aka "terminator style". -2 of the red benders can bend them DO and DU -None of them can bend a red with all three styles (that I know of), but suspect a few are capable of doing it now. By and large, the guys with longer arms that are suited for deadlifting also excel at double overhand, but a few also practice other styles and are strong with that. Guys who are built more for squatting and pressing report having more success bending DU. Still, several guys who bend primarily underhand can bend well with DO, although DU is more of a natural movement. I started out looking for a link between the upper back strength of deadlifters and their ability to bend big steel, but that soon gave way to the long arms theory because it made more sense. During my conversations with people, a lot of them mentioned that they were not good pressers, but comparing raw bench numbers to DO bending isn't as relevant to me as comparing body types to bending styles. One guy here on the board (you know him by his huge 'pex') has benched 585 raw but, based on my knowledge of his abilities, seems to do better at reverse grip than DO for bending. I think the long arms suited for deadlifting work for DO because of the extra leverage gained on the end of the bar. DO is mostly about transferring upper body power through the arms using the best possible leverage, and long armed guys have more leverage than those with shorter arms, who are better suited for pressing. The vast majority of DO benders use leather wrapping as well. I was going to post a spreadsheet of my findings with names, deadlift numbers, and the like, but a couple people have asked to keep their stats private which I respect. So I decided not to publish the sheet at all since the missing stats would show a different result than what I'm saying here and I did not ask permission from everyone to publicly show this info anyway. So the conclusion to this is something that I don't think gets mentioned very much here - bending by your body type using your natural leverages and strengths should prove to be more successful than sticking with a style because you've always bent that way. For those interested in the deadlift numbers by guys who feel they are suited to pulling and work out, the highest mark is 744 and the lowest is 455. 9 of the guys pull over 600. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricMilfeld Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 I've been casually taking note of this relationship between the "deadlift build" and double overhand success lately. But wow Clay, you've really taken note! I agree that the longer armed guys seem better suited for double overhand, in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Lipinski Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 I am one of the short, squat type who has had more success with double overhand, although DU was initially far more natural. DO is definitely technique based- I wonder how many people who do DU better have really got the push technique down? I asked Clay this question- Is it body type or strength? Would upper back strength indicators, like chin-up/row strength also be good for comparison? Just ideas, I know I don't have answers and I think this is a real cool topic. I love looking for strength+body type relationships cause the info is so easy to apply to your training. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 Great post Clay. What about flexibility? Generally the big pressers aren't as flexible just due to the sheer mass, so the DU might be better suited for them than then DO. My next question would be what about long armed guys that are big pressers(relatively ....say a BP of 350 and above)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ishred Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 I would think it has more to do with body type and technique than strength. Reasoning for this...Kurt Lane will probably have a red bent soon and if you asked him for his DL and bench numbers, it would most likely bring the average down. No offense to kurt, he's young, and has many years of lifting ahead of him. If i go back to deadlifting i can pull 500+....but i have shorter arms for my size...i think I'm meant for pressing, but I don't have the technique down for DO....i have plenty of strength for it though. So Clay, I guess this means your right....most of the red benders are Leather wrapping, DO folding cheaters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay Edgin Posted October 20, 2004 Author Share Posted October 20, 2004 I don't think a big bench = big bends because bending DO requires "specific" strength just like any other technical movement. Find the technique, refine it, then get stronger while using it. This might not carry over to your regular lifting, and regular lifting might not carry over to your bending. Also some guys built for pressing don't have the flexibility to get the bar under the chin like others do, yet they are huge benchers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 I don't think a big bench = big bends because bending DO requires "specific" strength just like any other technical movement. Find the technique, refine it, then get stronger while using it. This might not carry over to your regular lifting, and regular lifting might not carry over to your bending. Also some guys built for pressing don't have the flexibility to get the bar under the chin like others do, yet they are huge benchers. ← Right...so do you think it's a flexibility issue not just armlength/deadlifter's build, since most big benchers have short arms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 (edited) Where do guys like Holle and Brookfield fit in? Neither of them can bench or deadlift much.....as far as i know. Obviously they are not on the forum and apparently not much is known about their lifting....but I'd guess they 'aren't much' in the gym. Edited October 20, 2004 by Tom of Iowa2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 Holley I assume is Gavin Holle??? He's developed the specific strength to do it and he looks like he's got plenty of shoulder flexibility from the MILO pics. Brookfield bends DO at the waist so braced or not he's using more wrist strength than the DO at the chin. I think Gavin or JB would surprise you at the gym, certainly not elite powerlifters, but I'm sure they are plenty strong in the gym lifts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 (edited) error Edited October 20, 2004 by Tom of Iowa2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 (edited) Holley I assume is Gavin Holle??? He's developed the specific strength to do it and he looks like he's got plenty of shoulder flexibility from the MILO pics. Brookfield bends DO at the waist so braced or not he's using more wrist strength than the DO at the chin. I think Gavin or JB would surprise you at the gym, certainly not elite powerlifters, but I'm sure they are plenty strong in the gym lifts. ← Just wondering about them,and how they might fit into Clays 'research'?....as Holle and Brookfield ARE the most famous and 'written about' RED benders ever. Edited October 20, 2004 by Tom of Iowa2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGuy Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 I am tall, long arms and body, shortish legs and am a good deadlifter. I prefer underhand stlye, and having poor flexibility can not get into position for a strong push and final crush. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnOBrien Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 I find this thread very interesting. I'm one of the few who isn't a particularly good deadlifter, although I am 6'2" so I have relatively long arms. Flexiblity is not an issue for me, but I don't pull the bar up under my chin as far as some that I've seen use DO. I also feel it much more in my arms and chest than in my upper back. I usually bend on the same day I do upper body lifting and I have cramped in my arms on particularly challenging bends. Too bad we can't see the raw data, I'd love to see how everyone stacks up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incindium Posted October 20, 2004 Share Posted October 20, 2004 I wonder if the relative width of the shoulders would make a difference as well along with the arm length. I've only been bending a short time but I've got ultra wide shoulders with stumpy arms and DU is stronger for me. I may not just know how to properly bend DO(I'll have to have Bob or someone educate me at the Michigan Grip contest) but at this point DU seems to be the way for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarytheDino Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 I would think wide shoulders would be more advantage than long arms. Just a guess. An exercise I've been thinking about adding is decline DB flyes, this seems to be the exact motion of my bend. Any thoughts. I would be curious to see wing span mearsurements and shoulder circumference. I think the biggest factor for me though is the first finger. When that finger gets tired I go downhill (It doesn't last long either )and end up gripping the nail with the middle finger which is a disadvantage. I recently got back into other grip exercises to try to build this up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 Where do guys like Holle and Brookfield fit in?Neither of them can bench or deadlift much.....as far as i know. Obviously they are not on the forum and apparently not much is known about their lifting....but I'd guess they 'aren't much' in the gym. ← Looked Nathans lifts(couldn't find Gavins) up in MILO,Sept,2003.Volume 11.Don't know how accurate this is-it was in the article regarding Nathan Holles #4 Certification. Nathan Holles lifts: Deadlift 350X2 Seated Military presses:6x2@185 Bench press:6x2@285 Squat:300x2 IF Gavins are like this?he must just have some damn strong wrists....his brute strength/overall body strength?is nothing compared to most of you guys? They are brothers and are similarly built.....?maybe their lifts are similar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 Did you see the curls? 65kg for 3 sets of 3, that's 143lbs, if he's doing that strict I'm freaking impressed. He only weighs 84kg or 184. He's not some monster but in reference to his bodyweight his upperbody lifts aren't too shabby. 100lbs over his BW for 6 sets of doubles on bench, overhead pressing his BW for 6 sets of doubles, and curling almost 80% of his BW for triples, not the stuff of legends but he's no pencil-neck. Gavin and Craig look like they're substantially thicker than Nathan to me. Brookfield has 19 1/4" arms according to The Gripmaster's Manual. They're not ripped but they look pretty solid to me. I don't think any of them are going to be competitve powerlifters anytime soon but I think they can definetly hold their own in the gym. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 (edited) Did you see the curls? 65kg for 3 sets of 3, that's 143lbs, if he's doing that strict I'm freaking impressed. He only weighs 84kg or 184. ← I'm not really making fun of their lifts...just digging them up for reference. I made the funny face on the deadlift cause I'm pretty sure i could do that in 8th grade.....yet I (obviously)can't bend a RED(never tried either). It is,in a way,impressive what they can do,considering their limited upper body(and lower body )GYM strength. Obviously they are hard wired to apply that strength and bend that steel. They aren't weak...but in the gym they aren't strong....especially compared to some of the Stats Clay dug up. They are the celebs of the bending world(MILO) so for the hell of it I was wondering how they fit into Clays 'study'. Edited October 21, 2004 by Tom of Iowa2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 (edited) Brookfield has 19 1/4" arms according to The Gripmaster's Manual. They're not ripped but they look pretty solid to me.. ← NOT A CHANCE IN HELL>i met Brookfield at 'Strongest Man Alive'in 1998.I shook his hand.Stood right next to him.Nice guy......but IF his arms are 19 1/4(and he was younger and fitter then compared to now)i'll eat a glass and nails salad with turpentine and hydrochloric acid for dressing. And,IMHO,he wasn't particularly solid. Hey,strong as hell with those things he does- and i can't do what he can....but wow ! that is one hell of a claim. Who wrote that book? (and I know you are just repeating what you read...not your claim ) Edited October 21, 2004 by Tom of Iowa2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jad Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 Just what it said in the book, Boss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom of Iowa2 Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 Just what it said in the book, Boss ← I know dude. Just THAT is an outlandish claim. Ridiculous. Where is Joe Roark and his measuring tape when we REALLY need him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay Edgin Posted October 21, 2004 Author Share Posted October 21, 2004 I don't think it's the Holle's gym lifts that explains their bending reds, but rather the technique and specific strength built up from bending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurt Lane Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 If I can possibly bend a red in the future, I will have the lowest gym lifts for a red bender ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twig Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 If I can possibly bend a red in the future, I will have the lowest gym lifts for a red bender ever ← Which surely would translate as "the best technique ever"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonL Posted October 21, 2004 Share Posted October 21, 2004 I have read some where that Brookfeild can chin up himself plus 200 pds attached to his waist ????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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