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Poll: Genetics And The #4


pdoire

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Refocusing on the original question in the very first post:

As far as everyone else goes, I think a #4 is within reach. 

Like I said before; I love the enthusiasm, but this is simply not correct under any definition of potential.

IMO most guys in the world could work their tail off for their entire life with the most focus, most carefully planned training routine, and they will not close a #4. Sorry to sound negative, but that is my honest opinion. Yes many could do it if they did what I describe above, but most (certainly not everyone) could not absent turning themselves into a cyborg. If you can't close a trainer when you first try it, IMO the 4 is not in the cards--ever, under any circumstances. Many people I have seen cannot close a trainer. It's like saying you only deadlifted 200 the first time you tried it as an adult and you expect that if you train hard you may also have a shot at 800 plus--extremely unlikely.

No, I am not a #4 closer, but at least I have a feel for what it is like to close one given that I can close some of the grippers that are harder than #3s. To me someone who can only close a #1 (not speaking to you directly) saying anyone can close a #4 is like someone who can squat 315 telling me anyone can squat 1000 if they put their mind to it--how would you have any idea? Sure many could, but certainly not everyone.

Edited by rbrown
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What?! You can't compare strength using %. If you do you must explain the fact that increasing the strength by another % is exponentially difficult.

So you think that a 110# bencher is 10x as strong as a 100# bench presser? If they have the same ROM, then the first lifter is doing 10% more work than the second.

Mikael,

The data is mainly Robert Baraban's, but it fits my limited experience. His new Dyno is not adjustable and tests outside of the range of deep set work with the grippers.

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Scott Styles

I believe rbrown is referencing a curve like this:

http://www.gripboard.com/uploads/109814433..._1098287856.gif

It becomes exponentially harder to get stronger. That doesn't mean you are exponentially stronger. Just that the number of people at each level of strength becomes exponentially fewer.

So let's say me and rbrown have the same genetics but he is 4x stronger than me. He has worked 100x harder to get there.

Edited by Scott Styles
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Age, health, enviroment, diet and many other things seem to have been left out of the equation. It is absurd to say that almost anyone has the genetics to close a #4 if only he dedicates himself to training for it. On top of that, the brutal training involved could greatly damage some peoples hands. It would be better to say that you believe you will in time close it, and that many other like minded people could too.

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I believe rbrown is referencing a curve like this:

http://www.gripboard.com/uploads/109814433..._1098287856.gif

It becomes exponentially harder to get stronger.  That doesn't mean you are exponentially stronger.  Just that the number of people at each level of strength becomes exponentially fewer.

So let's say me and rbrown have the same genetics but he is 4x stronger than me.  He has worked 100x harder to get there.

No, it was Daniel Lidstrom that made the following assertion:

What?! You can't compare strength using %. If you do you must explain the fact that increasing the strength by another % is exponentially difficult. Try plotting the equation y = x^2 and look in the interval 0-10. See how fast the curve rises? This demonstrates the amount of work required (note: that curve is not representative but it gives an idea).

Also, genetics is not just what kind of muscles, ligaments, etc you have, but also how you motivate yourself. A strong mind is definitely not something everybody has.

His statement is complete pseudoscience. If what he really means is that it gets harder to make gains as you approch your genetic limits then I do agree with that, but strength isn't measured on a scale of effort. It is about how much you can lift or how tough of a gripper you can close.

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Wannagrip

It feels good to not be alone. :cool

As I was not trying to be negative either, but this is what I was trying to get across as well.

Especially when I witnessed a VERY tenacious person with pretty darn good genetics struggle to attain a #4 close. Great attitude. Great dedication. And discipline. One of the more gifted individuals I have seen.

Refocusing on the original question in the very first post:

As far as everyone else goes, I think a #4 is within reach. 

Like I said before; I love the enthusiasm, but this is simply not correct under any definition of potential.

IMO most guys in the world could work their tail off for their entire life with the most focus, most carefully planned training routine, and they will not close a #4. Sorry to sound negative, but that is my honest opinion. Yes many could do it if they did what I describe above, but most (certainly not everyone) could not absent turning themselves into a cyborg. If you can't close a trainer when you first try it, IMO the 4 is not in the cards--ever, under any circumstances. Many people I have seen cannot close a trainer. It's like saying you only deadlifted 200 the first time you tried it as an adult and you expect that if you train hard you may also have a shot at 800 plus--extremely unlikely.

No, I am not a #4 closer, but at least I have a feel for what it is like to close one given that I can close some of the grippers that are harder than #3s. To me someone who can only close a #1 (not speaking to you directly) saying anyone can close a #4 is like someone who can squat 315 telling me anyone can squat 1000 if they put their mind to it--how would you have any idea? Sure many could, but certainly not everyone.

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I really am not trying to fight with anyone, I just don't agree with your guys opinions, i.e., Oldguy, Wannagrip, and Rbrown.

Breaking it down less, I have been serious on grip for just over a month. The nr.1 and the nr. 2 are siezed, and the 3 is like 9mm away... so I will close the 4 some damn day, that's that, and I officially change my position from one of defending perserverance to one of not giving a shit what other people do or don't do with there time or genetics.

I offer a truce in this matter, and an agreement to simply disagree.

One thing you could advise me on is what I said in my last post about leaving out the thick bar stuff... for focus that is the best way, and is it true what I have heard about thick bar stuff and bending affecting crush negatively?

Edited by Lich
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Why do you not just state what you believe as it applies to you instead of trying to apply it to everyone?

Then what would we talk about for 130 posts?

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If we are genetically capable of 131 posts???

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I really am not trying to fight with anyone, I just don't agree with your guys opinions, i.e., Oldguy, Wannagrip, and Rbrown.

Breaking it down less, I have been serious on grip for just over a month.  The nr.1 and the nr. 2 are siezed, and the 3 is like 9mm away... so I will close the 4 some damn day, that's that, and I officially change my position from one of defending perserverance to one of not giving a shit what other people do or don't do with there time or genetics. 

I offer a truce in this matter, and an agreement to simply disagree.

One thing you could advise me on is what I said in my last post about  leaving out the thick bar stuff... for focus that is the best way, and is it true what I have heard about thick bar stuff and bending affecting crush negatively?

Lich, please don't mistake my statements as statements that you personally will not close the #4. I never tell any individual that they cannot do something they put their mind to even if I think otherwise. Based on your stated progress it sounds like you are far above average in the grip department. You may very well have a decent shot at it; only time will tell. Let us know how you progress once you get past the #3. I sincerely wish you well in your training.

Your situation is not typical to many. I have been around the grippers for a good while now and have seen many people's training experiences. Many have to grind and grind just to get the 2 or even the 1. If you truly think anyone can do it, then why would you add that all women could close the #4? Obviously most women are not genetically as strong in the grip department as men, but under your theory, if they worked hard enough they could close the #4. Not a slam against women at all, but I really don't see that happening just as I don't see men who are not at least somewhat genetically talented getting the 4.

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Why do you not just state what you believe as it applies to you instead of trying to apply it to everyone?

Then what would we talk about for 130 posts?

What can I say; It's been a slow couple of days at work... :D

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One thing you could advise me on is what I said in my last post about  leaving out the thick bar stuff... for focus that is the best way, and is it true what I have heard about thick bar stuff and bending affecting crush negatively?

I personally do find fat bar training to wreck my gripper strength. After doing fat bar or Rolling thunder work I find the #2 to be quite hard. I'd lay off of the fat bar stuff if you really want to progress with the grippers as fast as possible.

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Why do you not just state what you believe as it applies to you instead of trying to apply it to everyone?

Because I have seen too many cases of people doing things that they have been told they would not be able to do to give into the genetics thing. They give it some mental grit and determination, and blow all of us away.

It is possible that you are correct, no arguement. But just as I can't prove that everyone could close a #4 (everyone would have to be willing to make the sacrifices and invest the training for multiple years in order to prove anything), you cannot prove conclusively that the would not be capable of it due to their genetics. And my experiences tell me that people in general are capable of more than they think, and I do think that anyone who has the guts to invest the training, sacrifice where needed, and not give up, could achieve a #4 as long as they do not have a physical or mental issue which rules it out (other than laziness or no desire). You won't change my mind about that. Sorry.

I just made the last statement with regards to me because I can see we will never agree, and I was just trying to bring that debate to an end. No disrepect to anyone here. * offers handshake *

rbrown,

Thanks for your replies and answr to my question. I kinda thought that was the case with fattie bars. I'm gonna keep the KB stuff though to keep the rest of my body up to par, and for the ballistic-grip effect benefit. That is one thing I have noticed, i.e., that KB work has never seemed to hamper gripper training, bzw, in the past when I just dabbled with grippers among KB stuff.

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OK. I know Wanna and Oldguy are laughing....

I won't promise a day to day journal, but I'll post once in a while on the progress. See my thread in the journal section...

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We are not telling anybody that they cannot close a #4. We are saying that it is not possible for everyone to be able to do so. If you believe you can or not, the only way to find out is to train for it. You might succeed when you thought it would never happen, or fail when you were supremely confident you would do so.

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OK.  I know Wanna and Oldguy are laughing....

I won't promise a day to day journal, but I'll post once in a while on the progress.  See my thread in the journal section...

I am not laughing at you Lich! You are not in the same league as many of the Grip nuts I do laugh at on here. :flame:D

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So how big is the range for potential in crushing strength? Would the strongest of the strong be capable of 1.5, 2, or even 3x as much as the normal person?

If grip potential is like potential for PL then I would guess that the strongest men would be able to crush 2x what the average man could achieve. Maybe somebody will close the BB Worldclass for reps someday.

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OK.  I know Wanna and Oldguy are laughing....

I won't promise a day to day journal, but I'll post once in a while on the progress.  See my thread in the journal section...

I am not laughing at you Lich! You are not in the same league as many of the Grip nuts I do laugh at on here. :flame:D

I don't understand this comment.

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Here's a quote by Charles Fraser, a lifting coach for 50 years, that might be helpful in this thread. It is quoted in the September 2004 issue of MILO.

"It takes about 5 years of regular training without long breaks or serious injuries to reach a level that is about 90% as strong as you will ever become. It takes another five years to achieve that final 10%. The average age of a lifter by the time he becomes a world chapion is 24 to 28. Assuming that the lifter started training in his early or mid-teens, this bears out the ten-year estimate ... Ninety percent of us do not have the heredity to become even national champions, let alnone world champions. A good gauge of your potential, after five years of competition, when you will probably be somewhere between 25 and 30 years of age, is my 80 and 90% principle. If your total has reached 80% of world records, you do not have a chance to go all the way to the top! If you have reached 90%, maybe, just maybe, you do have what is required to reach world champion status."

I think this puts it into perspective. The timelines may be different for grip strength, but I believe this concept holds true for grip as well. I hope this is not a downer for some people, but it does paint a real picture of what you can expect in the iron game.

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Wannagrip
We are not telling anybody that they cannot close a #4. We are saying that it is not possible for everyone to be able to do so. If you believe you can or not, the only way to find out is to train for it. You might succeed when you thought it would never happen, or fail when you were supremely confident you would do so.

Exactly.

OK. I know Wanna and Oldguy are laughing....

I don't laugh at anyone who sets goals and then goes for them with gusto.

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I think it's pretty obvious that most people do not have the genetics to reach the top of their sport - only so many (a handful) have a realistic chance of winning the 100m sprint at the Olympics, for example. That is not under question. What is under question is how high is that top level - how many people can expect to do a certain feat, which is obviously far more open.

Is the #4 a 9.90 seconds 100m or a 11.00? A century ago that time would have been at the very elite level. Only time will tell.

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