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More Reps On Gripper Does Not Mean More Strength.


kelby

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i don't buy the whole "genetics" thing. Most people who lift just go through the motions of doing it, bb's like coleman make it their life. With all the posibilities in the world is it even conceivable that coleman (and other bodybuilders) found what their bodies are capable of? I'm tired of hearing how gifted coleman is....yes everyone has the same access to drugs that he does...but he's probably pumping 3 times as much into his system.

If you work hard, you will achieve. You can pound out reps on your #1 and #2 all day, but in order to close that 3 you will have to start working the 3. You want to squat 800lbs....stop doing 20 reps with 400 and work up in weight. Sure, some people might have an easier time with certain things because of genetics (hand size for example), but i think anyone who puts in the time and effort can do what others do.

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Sybersnott
How far can anyone of us go in the grip game? You can bitch all day long about the things you can't change or you can shut up and train and find out.

This is the gem of the day. Words of wisdom from Mr. Wood!!! :bow:D

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ClayEdgin

John, you certainly have peaked some people's interest in your own grip training program. Would you care to lay it out for us?

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danny boy from the gripboard can close the number one gripper 42 times and still can't close the number twos. i rest my case that reps do not help with power and strength. ( sorry danny boy i am just trying to make a point. keep working on the low reps. and it is impressive to close number 1 42 times you can keep your strength for a long time)

heheheeh, i gave you that thread of mine just to show you that i agreed that (high) reps dont help with strength or power, and that was a good example i think. im glad it helped.

ps that thread is almost a year old, and since then i have closed the #3.

you know what though, i never realy completely abandoned high reps untill recently too. So i guess it did help a bit. im confused i gotta sit down. :blink

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Rick Walker
Its not as though I think about a 1 rep max like I think about the Easter Bunny, I just think that since you can in fact increase your 1 rep max by safer means, why not do so?
Seems like we are dancing around this. If it is, indeed, possible to increase your 1-rep max via rep work-then please explain it. I have been around a lot of powerlifters. Some good, some so-so, and some world class. None of them do rep work in preperation for a contest. During a layoff, or down time, they may, but to prepare for a contest, they train heavy, with low reps.
All other things being equal a 20x 400 will equate to some 1 rep max number and thus increasing that performance from 20x400 to 30x400 or 20x450 will lead to an increase in that 1 rep max. If your goal is the heaviest possible 1 rep max, you must first get as strong as possible relative to the increasing the total force that your muscles are able to generate then practice to do so just like any other skill.

Yes, being increasing your 20 rep max form 400 to 450 will show some improvement in your 1-rep max. But, if there is a better way to do things, and a quicker way, then why beat around the bush? You know Dr. Ken, John, can he squat 700? So if he ups his 20 rep max to 450-he still wont be at 700 and the trip from 400 to 450 in a 20 repper may take YEARS. Powerlifters, for the most part, dont have years. Sure, I could work my 20 rep max until eventually it lead to a 700 pound squat. However, how long would it take? A lifetime.

To a high degree they are able to demonstrate heavier weights because of this natural advantage and not because they are  necessarily "stronger."
To a point, I agree with this. For the most part, I think people need to buck up and not blaim performance on arm length or body structure. Anyone can be successful, IMO.
Now, assuming someone increases their 1 rep max strength by any amount, with all other things being equal, sure he has gotten stronger but this can be measured in other ways and certainly more safer ways. But like our hypothetical increase from 10 reps to 13 reps, there can be no arguement that an increase in strength (or momentary muscular force) has in fact occured.

If we are considering all things to be equal, then how can there be any argument that a lifter who maxed out on a 500 pound deadlift, then upped it to 520? A strength gain is a strength gain. Atleast when maxing out-it is a do or do not situation. You either get the rep, or you get pasted. A lot more factors go into repping a weight.

A 1 rep max as a measurment of strength is not necessary to anyone else but to a competitive lifter
Agree.
Training heavy all the time is an excellent way to increase your demonstratable maximum ability

Just one question-why do you keep refering to it as demonstration ability? Muscular strength has a definition. 2 guys step to a loaded bar. They are equal in experience, size, weight, arm length, etc. Lifter 1 pulls 700. Lifter 2 pulls 775. #2 is stronger. This stuff is cut and dry basic. Now, lifter 1 may be able to deadlift 500 for 50. That is great. He still cant demonstrate maximum muscle strength-so he is weaker.

Just like Louis Simmons proclaims his methods are superior by always pointing out top lifters, I take it with a grain of salt. It's easy to advocate a training routine/method when you basically could do any routine and be very strong

Interesting comments. The WSB methods have always worked for me far better then any other routine I have tried for increasing my 3 lifts. I am far from a genetic freak. Also, another member here by the name Razorman started WSB methods a few years back. he was extremely weak and tried everything under the sun. He is now lifting weights he never thought possible.

As far as grip goes, I can tell you this: when I certified on the #3 in front of Wade, I could not do the #2 for more then 6 reps. That is the absolute truth. Now-I can rep a #2 fo 20 reps. Guess what-I am still closing the same grippers I was back when I couldnt. Go figure. Reps just dont cut it for me.

Rick Walker :rock

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i don't buy the whole "genetics" thing. Most people who lift just go through the motions of doing it, bb's like coleman make it their life. With all the posibilities in the world is it even conceivable that coleman (and other bodybuilders) found what their bodies are capable of? I'm tired of hearing how gifted coleman is....yes everyone has the same access to drugs that he does...but he's probably pumping 3 times as much into his system.

If you work hard, you will achieve. You can pound out reps on your #1 and #2 all day, but in order to close that 3 you will have to start working the 3. You want to squat 800lbs....stop doing 20 reps with 400 and work up in weight. Sure, some people might have an easier time with certain things because of genetics (hand size for example), but i think anyone who puts in the time and effort can do what others do.

im sorry but genetics plays a huuuuuge role, from the shape of ones chest to maximum size it can get (with or without roids)

roids will make the average man bigger/stronger, but if everyone is taking roids and working out twice a day and are the same height there are still gunna be guys who are way bigger and look way better than the next guy

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Well, I got in on this thread late. I just found it today. But...

I'll share something with you from my log. Back in 99 when I had just moved up to the 60 pound DB's in the Hammer-curl, I took a max that day. I got a 60 pound DB for 5 reps. I got a 70 pounder 1 rep and could not get the 80 pounder up. 7 months later when I got 20 reps with the 60, I got the 80 for 8 reps! I had done nothing more than train with the 60, adding a rep or 2 every - or every other - workout. Just by becoming stronger with the 60 made my strength go up. It has too. If you are getting stronger rep-wise with one weight, that is, if one weight is becoming easier - then the other weight is going to become easy as well and you are getting stronger! And you will be able to handle heavier weight! It worked that way for me and it works that way always for me. Now, I can get 20 with 80's and can get reps with a 100. And I do nothing but train for high reps.

Sixgun...

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Regardless of how many actual reps are performed, the fact of the matter is that an increase in reps, will allow you to get stronger so long as that increase comes about as a result of increases in muscular force and not technique. Now, assuming that is in fact the case, I would recommend a shift in rep range or resistance levels. Damn, theres that old progressive resistance thing again.

This is true. However, doing more and more reps until you start getting into 30-50 reps and more won't do more for maximum muscular force production, why? Because you are in the domain of slow twitch muscle fibres that are not meant for short maximum exertion but muscular endurance.

As you stated yourself, John, endless reps won't do much for increasing muscular force.

However, doing sets of 5 until you tire, can be productive, as terminator mentioned. Even doing lots of sets of 20 can, but my point all along has been that the body adapts to the task at hand. If the task is to perform reps in the high 2 digit numbers, then that's what it gets good at. Simply SAID. ;)

You need to know what is productive and what is not.

Muscular endurance should not be scoffed at though, and training for both muscular strength and endurance has it's merits.

Edited by nagual
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For me, endurance does build strength. When I get 20 reps with a DB, I can get 5-10 reps with a DB 20 pounds heavier. I move up 10 pounds, start over. At 20 reps again, I can get 5-10 reps with a DB 20 pounds heavier again. Soon, I'm at the DB that I was first at only doing 5-10 reps, but now I'm at 20. And it just keeps moving up for me. That IS STRENGTH. That is GETTING STRONGER. I am increasing my strength with each move up. It's pretty simple as far as I'm concerned.

Sixgun...

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all i have to say is its all based on %

lets say you are doing bench press

you can do 100lb for 3 reps

now if the next day you can do 5 reps odds are if you try 105 you will get it

now lets say you are benching 500lb

one day you get 300 reps

the next day you did 301 reps. did you get stronger?

answer is yes. BUT you realy wont notice it since its such a small gain

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For me, endurance does build strength. When I get 20 reps with a DB, I can get 5-10 reps with a DB 20 pounds heavier. I move up 10 pounds, start over. At 20 reps again, I can get 5-10 reps with a DB 20 pounds heavier again. Soon, I'm at the DB that I was first at only doing 5-10 reps, but now I'm at 20. And it just keeps moving up for me. That IS STRENGTH. That is GETTING STRONGER. I am increasing my strength with each move up. It's pretty simple as far as I'm concerned.

Sixgun...

Well, I was actually talking about more than 20 reps. The point being that it is a sliding scale between muscular endurance and muscular strength, which is individual. But 20 reps is still within the "muscular strength limit", so to speak.

If you would keep going and finally get up to 50 reps or more, you wouldn't benefit much, if anything, in the way of 1RM strength.

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austinslater

Im also curious for those that use reps if there is a point of diminishing returns with the reps while trying to jump up a gripper. I dont think going from 100 reps to 125 reps with a store bought gripper will help you close the gap on the #3. I do feel reps with the #2 would be beneficial though under the right circumstances.

Austin

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For me, endurance does build strength. When I get 20 reps with a DB, I can get 5-10 reps with a DB 20 pounds heavier. I move up 10 pounds, start over. At 20 reps again, I can get 5-10 reps with a DB 20 pounds heavier again. Soon, I'm at the DB that I was first at only doing 5-10 reps, but now I'm at 20. And it just keeps moving up for me. That IS STRENGTH. That is GETTING STRONGER. I am increasing my strength with each move up. It's pretty simple as far as I'm concerned.

Sixgun... 

But is that a good way to increase your 1 Rep Max, which is the main point under discussion here?

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Wannagrip
John, I agree with Clay please lay out your routine for us.

I think we have gone beyond grip strength training. Last time someone asked John said his current grip routine was a very brief but intense (my interpretation on the intense part) routine that consisted of:

Wrist work

Grippers

Grip Machine (Hammer)

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Wannagrip
Just like Louis Simmons proclaims his methods are superior by always pointing out top lifters, I take it with a grain of salt. It's easy to advocate a training routine/method when you basically could do any routine and be very strong.

Rick you don't agree if that someone is very genetically gifted they can do pretty much any progressive resistance routine and get stronger?

What I was referring to is this can go in the other direction as well. For example, some guy who was genetically gifted touting a normal cycle progressive resistance Powerlifting routine over Westside methods.

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Sean Dockery

John has posted his grip routine a couple times.

If memory serves, it goes like this (after a warmup):

Grip machine loaded to "x" weight 1 set to failure (30-40 reps)

Wrist curls

Reverse Wrist curls

Torsion Spring gripper 1 set to failure (this is done with the hardest gripper he can close)

I believe John also uses thickbars quite frequently in his whole body routines, but could be mistaken.

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Rick Walker
Rick you don't agree if that someone is very genetically gifted they can do pretty much any progressive resistance routine and get stronger?

What I was referring to is this can go in the other direction as well. For example, some guy who was genetically gifted touting a normal cycle progressive resistance Powerlifting routine over Westside methods.

Absoultely Bill. Guys who are genetically gifted will be able to get strong, usually no matter how they train. As a matter of fact, many of the lifters that go to Westside to train are already top notch lifters. However, the amazing part about the training system is, it takes these top notch lifters who have been stuck at the same weights for 3-5 years using progressive resistance, and puts 100-200 more pounds on their total in a few years time. That is the key!

WSB really isnt secretive. It is as basic as progressive resistance. People make it out to be more difficult, and thus fail. I bare bone it, break it down, and thus succeed. It is all about individualism. What are your strengths? What are your weaknesses? The person who looks at the training logs and copies them verbatim is the person who fails.

Rick Walker :rock

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So , I would have to ask John , that if reps help strength, then how do you train for the next rep? Do you keep trying the current gripper doing partials, or overcrushes on a lighter gripper? Also I think the other muddling point is we are comparing grippers to barbells/dumbells, but when was the last time you got under a squat bar and the force to finish the rep increase based on the implelement? For example a squat of 300lbs is 300lbs top to bottom on a rep, where as a gripper starts of maybe 100lbs then at close is 250lbs? So I think the training method for grippers is very unique, and its hard to take weight traing principles to the hand grippers.

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  • 4 months later...

Waking this thread up for a bit, and concluding it with this:

Repetition Range: Type I, Type IIA, Type IIB, Strength Gains

1-2 repetitions: Very Low, Low, Low, Excellent

3-5 repetitions: Very Low, Low, Decent to Good, Excellent

6-8 repetitions: Very Low, Good, Excellent, Good

9-12 repetitions: Low, Excellent, Very Good, Good Within Rep R.

13-15 repetitions: Decent, Very Good, Decent to Good, Endurance

16-25 repetitions: Very Good, Diminishing, Low, Endurance

25-50 repetitions: Excellent, Low, Very Low, Endurance

Ref:

Cedrick, (1995). Strength and Conditioning Journal 17

BENEDICT, TAN, 1999: Manipulating Resistance Training Program Variables to Optimize Maximum Strength in Men: A Review. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 13, No. 3, pp. 289–304.

HARRIS, GLENN R., MICHAEL H. STONE, HAROLD S. O'BRYANT, CHRISTOPHER M. PROULX, ROBERT L. JOHNSON, 2000: Short-Term Performance Effects of High Power, High Force, or Combined Weight-Training Methods. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 14, No. 1, pp. 14–20

Hoeger, Werner W.K., Sandra L. Barette, Douglas F. Hale, David R. Hopkins, 1987: Relationship Between Repetitions and Selected Percentages of One Repetition Maximum. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 1, No. 1, pp. 11–13

Ruther, Christine L., Catherine L. Golden, Robert T. Harris, Gary A. Dudley, 1995: Hypertrophy, Resistance Training, and the Nature of Skeletal Muscle Activation. The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 9, No. 3, pp. 155–159

Fukui, Y. et al. (1986). High-resolution immunofluorescence for the study of the contractile apparatus. In "The Contractile Apparatus and the Ctyoskeleton" ("Structure and Contractile Proteins", Meth.Enzymol.134, Part D), ed R. B. Vallee, Academic Press, pp. 573-580.

Henneman, E et al "Functional Significance of cell size in spinal motor neurons." Journal of Neurophysiology 28: 560-580. 1965.

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loading the gripper with reps will gain strenght but not with just low gripper the same old thing. For people who not graced with my gripper helper which is

adjustable gains can threw the roof why because micro loading. For example,

it can be adjusted to 25 pounds. Lest say your gripper is the #1=140 pounds=

with the adjustable gripper help mine=load with to 10 pounds+140=150 + reps

=gains. 150 pounds to light add another 10 pounds=160 pounds=plus 12 reps=

gains. Loading the gripper. 165 max=file the gripper one handle=add another

10 pounds=175 pounds plus=12 reps=gains. Better than doing same old 20 to 25

reps it might not work and might work. You can be stuck for years with just the reps by them selves.

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danny boy from the gripboard can  close the number one gripper 42 times and still can't close the number twos. i rest my case that reps do not help with power and strength. ( sorry danny boy i am just trying to make a point. keep working on the low reps. and it is impressive to close number 1 42 times you can keep your strength for a long time)

Dannyboy is now a MashMonster!!

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danny boy from the gripboard can  close the number one gripper 42 times and still can't close the number twos. i rest my case that reps do not help with power and strength. ( sorry danny boy i am just trying to make a point. keep working on the low reps. and it is impressive to close number 1 42 times you can keep your strength for a long time)

Dannyboy is now a MashMonster!!

:whistel

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I can do over 70 rep with the tainer but it did even get me to the #1.

That was 2 years ago.

Here the rep trap Iam going to reps to go up to next gripper some people have

done reps for the pasted 15 years and only got to #2.

But there some people who done the #2 in less then a 3 months.

It your choice right in what you want to do.

So if want to do high rep go ahead.

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