Jump to content

V-bar Technique


jad

Recommended Posts

Obviously the record can only be broken in a major competition. I would certainly not recognise any WR set in a basement with two friends having a competitive go at the v-bar. As it stands Jim set the record in a major competition and it survived the GGC. Don't get me wrong, I was very impressed by the poundages lifted at the GGC with two men exceeding 150k (Rob and Clay).

So is the European world record for grippers Flo's BBSE close even though Nathan is certified on the #4? I don't know if anyone's closed a #4 in the US in competition but if not I guess the record is a BBSE over here???? I can understand your point since plates would need to be calibrated and probably several other things that I haven't thought of that a video just won't help with but then again saying WR's can only be set in major competitions will make them kind of hollow if 2-3 guys are posting videos of themselves breaking them.

Florians 3.65 rated BBSE is the European record set in competition (i.e., a competition record). Nathan Holle will probably never beat that as he will probably never compete. Gripper records in Europe can not be applied to competitions in the USA unless the same set of grippers are used.

World records on standardised equippment (in this case the v-bar) are set in proper competitions. I should not have to argue about something that obvious. What is the point of claiming a world record on a LGC v-bar replica, supported by a video clip, when you have absolutely no idea of what Jim has pulled in practise? That would be a hollow record indeed. Jim set his record in a competition where they allowed three attempts (I don't think he failed any of his three attempts). Twenty people failed to beat that record in the GGC even though they, I believe, had five attempts each. I would take a huge lift on a LGC v-bar replica set in practise for what it is: a huge lift set in practise.

I agree with MS in principle as I think my closure of the RB 300ip gripper (rated at 3.7 - feel free to confirm this) would be the best BY A EUROPEAN in competiton(the GGC) just not at the European.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, I was wondering about that. The bar weighs 1.6k or 3.5lbs so Clay's American record would then be 348.5lbs or 158.4k. Obviously I am assuming all plates were carefully calibrated.

Edited by Mikael Siversson
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To clarify: So if Jim breaks his own WR in practice and sends in a video then his old WR still stands and that's just a huge practice lift? Competitions and standardized equipment are great for ensuring no one has any unfair advantage but if a video can prove that standard equipment was used and no cheating took place what's the problem? I know what your saying is standard procedure for most sports but with Grip being so obscure, records are going to fall at a much faster rate as more and more people catch on. I just think it seems kind of silly to only recognize WR's a couple times a year. The record was still broken and recognized or not, the current world record holder is no longer the best.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In competition the weights are, for the most part, weighed or calibrated. If a lift was broken by a few pounds then for the sake of record it should be noted that the weights were not so. Also in competiton calibrated or not all the athletes have the same advantges or disadvantages.

I would also refer the writer to the simple fact that NO WORLD RECORDS set in training, or in front of mates, in any other field of the strength sport have yet to be accepted as 'official'. The nearest we get to this is the witnesses required by IM (their choice) or the rigmarole required for Mash Monster certification (video tape of the box being opened).

I am hoping to set a UK and possible WR at a competition soon on the RT. I have told the promoter to obtain a new handle and speak to Randall re requirements.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am hoping to set a UK and possible WR at a competition soon on the RT. I have told the promoter to obtain a new handle and speak to Randall re requirements.

Planning on taking Randall's $300 Steve?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just think it seems kind of silly to only recognize WR's a couple times a year. The record was still broken and recognized or not, the current world record holder is no longer the best.

Quote:

To clarify: So if Jim breaks his own WR in practice and sends in a video then his old WR still stands and that's just a huge practice lift?

Answer: Yes.

Quote:

I just think it seems kind of silly to only recognize WR's a couple times a year. The record was still broken and recognized or not, the current world record holder is no longer the best.

Answer: As indicated by Mobster, all plates used in the 2004 Iron Grip comp, LGC and Europeans were calibrated. In a home environment there is no unbiased controll whatsoever. You can lift whenever you feel you are at your peak strength. You can video film your attempts every time and then present the best one etc. etc. In competition you have to deliver on command. The two just don't compare.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whilst there are obvious logistical problems in such a young "Sport", as soon as we start accepting "records set in competition" only, the better. Video is great but competition is where it's at - yes?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whilst there are obvious logistical problems in such a young "Sport", as soon as we start accepting "records set in competition" only, the better. Video is great but competition is where it's at - yes?

I agree. Such a practice will help legitimize the sport.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Answer: As indicated by Mobster, all plates used in the 2004 Iron Grip comp, LGC and Europeans were calibrated. In a home environment there is no unbiased controll whatsoever. You can lift whenever you feel you are at your peak strength. You can video film your attempts every time and then present the best one etc. etc. In competition you have to deliver on command. The two just don't compare.

Excellent points, proving you were using calibrated weights would be quite a challenge on video. By delivering on command in competitions you increase your chance of winning the competition. I'm not talking about winning competitions though I'm talking about world records and finding out who is the best in the world. Maybe I just don't understand the definition of world record and that is my problem. To me if you are the world record holder it means you are the best in the world at what you do. You may not be the best every day but your best performance is better than everybody elses' best performance. If someone bests your top performance at your feat, whether they did it in a sanctioned competition or their basement, as long as they didn't cheat and it was documented so anyone can witness it, then you are no longer the world's best and should lose your world record. I think the feat itself is what should stop others from taking your WR not places the feat was performed. I'm well aware that other sports' policies on this but grip isn't too much like other sports anyways. If you guys say doing it that way is best for the sport so be it, you know a lot more about it than I do. I just have a hard time with the fact that the WR holder may not be the world's best.

Edited by jad
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right now the WR holder has done it in a sanctioned contest.

As you said in other sports various things have to be right to be able to claim/break WR's, and these really have to be upheld here. I'm sure Jim could put a few weeks training in and better the record performance but right now he's training on other things, well when he turns up! Jim where are you? :ohmy

As it's been said I'm sure that 180k (400lbs) can be lifted, in fact I'm sure Jim can do this.

David

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Someone here in the states could break the record by the end of this year, I think, although it most likely won't be in an official competition.

I hope my statement was not taken to mean that I feel people should be given credit for a WR pull on a V-bar if it is done ina garage. Of course, I only believe it should be done at a competition.

What's the numbering system that is used for the grippers? Someone explain that to me, please.

Thanks,

-Jedd-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What's the numbering system that is used for the grippers?  Someone explain that to me, please. 

Thanks,

-Jedd-

Grippers in competitions

By Mikael Siversson

Grippers are among the most popular grip training tools. They seem to bring out obsessive characters in most people who lay their hands on them. It is probably their inherited “you can either close me or you can not” construction that makes them so addictive. That last stubborn millimetre that refuses to yield can drive anyone crazy. In the Swedish Löddeköpinge Grip Challenge competition we have included grippers from the very start of this quarterly held event. The main reason is that they are popular (largely thanks to IronMind’s certification program) and because of this people are more likely to compete if grippers are part of the competition. Grippers are also good tools for measuring dynamic crushing strength.
It quickly became evident to us that there was no meaningful calibration system available on the market, so we had to invent one our selves. The LGC competition has from day one always tested both hands (mandatory in our view for determining true allround grip strength), either right+left or by using two handed lifts (i.e. two hand pinch). We feel that it would not be satisfactory simply to rank the competition grippers according to their (hand) tested closing difficulty. A simple ranking (e.g. 1 to 12, if 12 grippers are used) and then addition of left and right would not take into consideration of a potential total superiority with one hand. In other words, one would not get any extra points for outclassing the other competitors with one hand. We wanted a total measure of right+left crushing strength, and then applying the strongmen-type of scoring system that have been in place since LGC I. We first determined a reasonable “distance between the handles range” that would enable the competitors to focus mostly on the crushing aspect of the attempt (which is what we want to measure in a “crushing” event) rather than worrying about being able to set a wide gripper if they have smallish hands. We do not use grippers wider than 75 mm between the handles (measured where the handles would actually touch), and the narrowest gripper we currently use is 66 mm wide (a new BBE).
As a starting point towards building a meaningful set of rated competition grippers, I selected two “type specimens”, to use zoological terminology. These are the grippers upon which our whole rating system is ultimately based. An 2001-model IM #2 of roughly average difficulty was given the arbitrary value of 2.00 and an 2001-model IM #3 of average difficulty was given the arbitrary value of 3.00. The 50 per cent difference in rated value may or may not reflect the difference in closing difficulty. It does not matter. We could have given them basically any value as long as we then followed the same rating principles. By chance I then came across a 2002 model very hard #2 that seemed right between the two “type” grippers in difficulty. One full rep with it equalled 6-7 full reps with the 2.00 #2, whereas one full rep with the 3.00 #3 equalled 6-7 full reps with the hard #2. The latter was therefore given the rating of 2.45, which is right between 2.00 and 3.00 percentage wise. I then added grippers between the 2.45 and the 3.00 and realised, after literally speaking hundreds of testing attempts by different individuals, that a 1.0 mm difference (i.e., being just able to close a gripper as opposed to being one mm away from closing one) equalled a 2.0 per cent difference in rating value (only valid for a set based on the two unique type grippers and with their arbitrarily given rating values).
Ideally, I would like to have been able to test all grippers myself as my crushing strength increases but for the harder grippers I used stronger guys. A typical testing of a new gripper follows the following procedures: 1) fully closing the gripper 100 times (seasoning), using both hands; 2) do at least a couple of dozens attempts with it to get used to its unique characteristics; 3) selecting one or two (one easier and one harder) already calibrated grippers against which the new gripper is compared (these already rated grippers should not be further away in closing difficulty than about 3 mm); 4) commencing the testing by doing my normal three attempts with a gripper I can almost close (e.g. gripper A-1mm, new gripper-2.5mm, gripper A-2mm). Next workout I start with the new gripper, followed by gripper A, followed by new gripper. The following workout follows the first and so on until I have done at least 12 attempts (more would of course be even better) with each gripper (I don’t count attempts where it is obvious that I did not get a good set). I then calculate the average distance from a full closure with each gripper. Let’s say 1.4 mm with gripper A and 2.9 mm with the new gripper. I usually rely on my eyesight and a ruler. In my profession I constantly measure items in the 1-5 mm range and feel I have a good idea how far I am from closing a gripper, especially with a ruler at hand. Bluetack is somtimes used as well; 5) I now add to the calculation the handle width of the tested grippers. Let’s say gripper A is rated at 3.20 and is 70 mm and the new gripper 66 mm wide. Without handle width correction the new gripper would be rated as follows: the difference in closing difficulty is 1.5 mm which gives a 3.0 per cent difference in rating value. 3.20 (gripper A) X 1.03=3.296 or about 3.30. The whole calculation relies on the largely untested assumption that the closing difficulty is directly proportionate to the distance closed (i.e., twice as much “rating force” is needed to fully close a gripper than to close it half way), over the last 3-4 mm of the closing range. A 1.5 mm difference (2.9-1.4 mm) at 68.6 mm (out of 70 at full closure) with gripper A grows to 70/68.6 X 1.5= 1.53 mm at a full theoretical closure of gripper A. Thus the new gripper should be rated at 3.20 X 1.0306=3.298 which is also about 3.30, IF the two grippers had the same handle width, which they don’t, so we have to correct the rating value for this difference. Being 1.53 mm away from closing a 70 mm gripper is not the same thing as being 1.53 mm away from closing a 66 mm gripper. You are closer relatively speaking in the first case. This means that the corrected 1.53 mm difference at full gripper A closure, with the new gripper equals a 70/66 X 1.53=1.62 mm difference had the new gripper been 70 mm wide. The final rating is thus 1.62X2=3.24 per cent; 3.20X1.0324=3.304 which is actually also about 3.30 so in this case the correction calculations did not affect the final approximated rating figure, but sometimes it does.
This rating system is littered with untested assumptions and dubious measurements. Nonetheless it offers the only meaningful rating system used for grippers. Everyone that has tried the LGC grippers have closed the grippers in a predictable way and we have honestly seen no indications to suggest that it does not work well enough for competitions.

Jedd, basically, you can borrow a calibrated gripper from me and start calibrating your own. This will work if you follow the guidelines above and make sure that both grippers used (the calibrated one and the one you want to calibrate) are within the 0.25-3mm range from being closed at a max parallell set. I have a 3.38 BBE that you could have for a month. If you are too strong (i.e., being able to close one or both) for the gripper at the gym (with optimal warm up) then try calibrating them home (without optimal warmup such as squats). For example, right now I would be able to calibrate grippers in the 2.95-3.10 range with my lefty at home and 3.05-3.20 with my lefty in the gym (after squats). With my righty the range would be 3.15-3.30 at home and about 3.25-3.40 in the gym. These days I do a total of 15 attempts with each of the two grippers tested back to back, with 1.5-2 attempts each gripper on average each workout. The arbitrary range of difficulty is acceptable for competition as it lies within the standard deviation range (with the dominant hand for the top 6) of the other four events at the Europeans. For example it would not be very useful for competition with a formula base if the strongest guy scored 3.05 with (a relative grading system) grippers and the weakest guy 2.95.

Edited by Mikael Siversson
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems like I've read about a hook grip and how it is no longer allowed. Could someone explain what this is so I can avoid doing it. Thanks

ah...the goog old days :). A few of you should have a go at this if you are into suffering.

For what it's worth I've done more on both hands in practice. Dunno about 180 though...

I think I place the bar at the top of the palm before curling the fingers around and finally placing the thumb over the fingers. I certainly dont just grab and pull. I haven't touched the v bar since the British champs though. My personal favorite is David's 'skiing' technique which always brings a smile to my face.

You are right Mikeal, you have to play it safe with only 3 lifts in competition.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thumb on fingers and 'skiing' used to get me my placing :D I completely poxed it up on my second attempt and even though I had time I knocked it back. 280 lbs was no problem on the 3rd go though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 9 months later...

Is it bad when the bar starts to rotate? Is the lift still valid, other then that it hurts??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The hold favours a static wrist position as much as possible, particularly with heavier weights. Otherwise the bar seems to roll out your hand as it turns your wrist.

I find it is better to establish a neutral hand position with matching forearm position to prevent where possible the movement of the bar, which is generated by the hand position when you lift the weight from the floor.

The lift is still valid as far as I am aware, the bar movement just makes it harder.

This is my personal opinion, others may differ.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

zpf, you should check out this lift of my V-bar, the bar rotates like crazy but it's not a problem for my hand... Just wanted to know if the lift is still valid ;)

http://www.gripboard.com/index.php?showtopic=14654

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The thing about the rotation of the bar is that you must expend energy in order to control the spin, and this takes away from the skin's ability to complete the friction lift and it takes away from the total amount of enrgy in the hand available for lifting the implement. For me, my first several attempts don't spin - once my hand skin starts getting inflamed and my muscles get tired - the bar starts spinning more.

-Jedd-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Unfortunately, your content contains terms that we do not allow. Please edit your content to remove the highlighted words below.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy policies.