Back To Single Wrap?

[danegarreau]

As usual, well said Bob.

[mobsterone]

Agreed. Just watch the European videos. I do it David Horne style and then it's a close handed fold I guess??

[EricMilfeld]

"there will always be someone who tries to figure an easy way within the rules instead of taking the longer route of getting stronger."

In my view, that's how feats of strength always go. Whether it be bench pressing or clean and jerking, people are competitive and the most effecient form+the most strength will win. Everyone tries to maximize their leverage for a given feat, that is just the nature of trying to get better.

Well said, Bob. And let's keep in mind, seeking the most advantageous leverage position within the rules and training to get stronger are not mutually exclusive goals. I train for both, and have been fortunate enough to watch my strength level increase from the average 60D level to the sub 6" Red level, all the while employing my current bending technique.

Also, whether one is for instituting a "maximum distance between fingers" rule or not, the practicality of enforcing it, even if you were able to make a clearly defined rule, would be a logistical nightmare, and all but impossible. Here's just one example to make my point: I, just a few minutes ago, took a 7" Red and measured between my forefingers as they are positioned using my usual grip and got a measurement of 3". I then opened up my grip slightly, though my forefingers were still wrapped around the bar, and slid my hands towards eachother a bit, which put the ends of the nail slightly lower on my thumb pads. Now I had only 1.5" between my forefingers. But I then bent the nail with my usual amount of ease. My point is, without a rule defining how tightly your forefinger should be wrapped around the bar (have fun writing that rule), to a certain extent, the distance between the forefingers is partly irrelevant. The main factor which makes bending with the double overhand technique I use easier for me is the fact that my knuckles are positioned so they almost face eachother directly. Regardless of the distance between my forefingers (to a point) I'm still able to push downwards on the nail's ends.

[gamidon]

Bob I couldn't agree any more with what you said. This always smacks of a do it my way or it doesn't count argument.

Proof is in the pudding, if it makes a 5/16" red feel like 1/4" how bought we start seeing some 5/16" grade 5 bends... Cause according to that logic a 5/16" Grade 5 should feel like a regular 1/4" Grade 5 and should be a very easy bend for any red nail bender....

Edited September 15, 2004 by gamidon

[Clay Edgin]

Although I am guilty of the wide hand gaps from time to time, I agree with what Pat is saying. Putting my hands way out on the end of the nail to where my entire fists are vertical might take away from the spirit of bending in the traditional sense. I bend with a lot of different styles, but the only one you see videos of these days is with the overhand folding technique. Why? Because it is so much stronger for me. I believe it has to do with my massively manly, yet humble-in-a-tshirt-looking lats And nobody wants to see a boring video of me fighting a G5 bolt.

All joking aside and getting back to the matter at hand, I noticed a marked improvement in bending ability using the same style when I switched to two rags per Big Steve's advice. It felt better, both physically and psychologically. Being able to see the steel bend and have my index fingers touching it was very cool. And no bunching in the middle.

I would be lying if I said I have never tried to "cheat" a bend by wrapping a single towel and then wringing it extremely tight. It made the bend feel much easier. I have also rolled up a nail in a very significant amount of leather to where the wrap was about 2" thick. The bend itself was rediculously easy because there was an additional inch of leverage on each side!

With all that being said, I am going to compete this weekend at the GGC using every possible advantage available to me within the rules

[Zach Passman]

The original intent of the rule change was to try to force people to hold onto more of the bar. I never imagined that people would be able to keep a two piece wrap from flying off the bar holding way out on the ends but it seems to work for some. It would be great to insititute a maximum hand spread, but very difficult to write a rule because of the various lengths. I'm sure it would be a very popular rule as well. A 1.5-2 inch distance between fingers is reasonable for a 7 inch piece of steel and subtract accordingly for shorter bars. A 3,4,or 5 inch gap is unreasonable.....it makes 5/16" steel feel like 1/4" done properly.

To Bob's original question, I would be more inclined to pass a bend with a single wrap where the bender's hands are close together, than I would a double wrap where the hands are super wide apart. I don't know what to do about the rules, no matter what rules are written, there will always be someone who tries to figure an easy way within the rules instead of taking the longer route of getting stronger.

Pat-

I've watched the available videos of you bending here on the Gripboard, and you're very strong. You bend all sorts of stuff that I can't--there's no comparison between us in that regard.

However, I have never understood your viewpoint regarding the distance between the hands. Why did you choose to start using the double overhand technique?

How did you not "figure an easy way within the rules instead of taking the longer route of getting stronger ?" If you wanted to get stronger, why didn't you just keep at your previous technique?

Because the double overhand is an easier way to bend for you (my assumption here). It's certainly easier for me this way.

I can adjust where the nail/bar pushes into my hand, and decrease the distance between my hands while bending...but so what? How is that "more legit" than a position where I am just holding on to the (very) ends of the bar? It's not prohibitively more difficult this way, just different. All I'm doing is making it appear as if I'm using more wrist strength.

Fosberry (sp?) worked within the rules, and came up with a more effective way of high-jumping. Why didn't he just "work harder" and improve his performance that way? Because he didn't have to. His way works better.

I deadlift sumo-style. I can pull better than 100 lbs more this way vs conventional pulling. Does this mean that I am "cheating," or not staying within the rules? I'm playing by the rules. I know that this particular issue has been around for a long time--but it still applies.

Your comments sound similar to you adopting sumo-style, and then crying "fraud!" at anyone who places their feet outside of where you feel it's appropriate.

As I said up top, I can't do most of the feats you can. I can't close a #3, bend a #4 horseshoe, etc etc. But I can bend a red nail (7") in the same manner you can. You might disagree, but it's just semantics. You adopted the high double overhand style and learned to use it to your best advantage. Then you complain about others using this technique.

This smacks of a "do it my way or it doesn't count" attitude because that's what it is.

[terminator]

When I was bending exclusively in my old style, my goal was always to minimize the amount of kink I needed to complete a bend. I didn't "adopt" the double overhand style, I worked to where I didn't need anymore kink. Plain and simple, a lot more wear and tear on the hands occurs in my old style so the goal was always to minimize that.

People asked for my opinion, and I gave it as well as my experiences. Sorry if people take offense. Folks seem to have no problem with KGB type rules for the MM Gripper certs, but seem to always have a problem when rules are made in the interest of keeping the spirit of bending intact. Why not allow pipes over the end? Anyway, I've spent enough time debating the issue and really don't care what is done with the rules anymore, I'm out of it.

Amazingly, nobody did a test I proposed a long time ago. Take identical 7 inch bars with a loading pin and carabiner. Pick them both up at the same speed, only have one with your hands together and have the other one with your hands 3 or 4 inches apart. Think there will be a poundage difference? I know there will be because I've done it. This whole thing reminds me of grippers, let's say I find a hard Elite that I can close with a very deep set, and someone comes along and slams it no-set. Am I stupid enough to say I'm as strong on that gripper?

I admire Clay's honesty, and he's right.....it's in the spirit of the whole thing. I don't care about the rules of a particular contest, that's up to the promoter of the contest, but we're talking about the rules of the records forum, where one is supposed to compare apples to apples. Do whatever the heck you want.

[danegarreau]

Isn't the spirit of the whole thing just having fun and bending metal?

[EricMilfeld]

Amazingly, nobody did a test I proposed a long time ago. Take identical 7 inch bars with a loading pin and carabiner. Pick them both up at the same speed, only have one with your hands together and have the other one with your hands 3 or 4 inches apart. Think there will be a poundage difference? I know there will be because I've done it. This whole thing reminds me of grippers, let's say I find a hard Elite that I can close with a very deep set, and someone comes along and slams it no-set. Am I stupid enough to say I'm as strong on that gripper?

I don't think anyone is debating the effect of decreasing the length of the "lever" being used to bend a nail. Yes, the effect is profound. The poundage rating of the various David Horne Challenge Bars were based on this simple rule of physics.

I don't think your example of the grippers is quite applicable to the issue being debated. It's more like this: Joe Gripper sets a MM1 to parallel, per the rules, and shuts if for certification. Tom Crusher does a no-set with the same gripper for certification, and instead of recognizing Joe's performance as valid, Tom complains that Joe had a distinct advantage with his style of close. I say Tom should move on to the MM2 to prove his superiority over Joe with respect to grippers. And everyone lives happily ever after...

[Clay Edgin]

You could always save the moderator the work and just stop posting.

[AP]

I noticed a marked improvement in bending ability using the same style when I switched to two rags per Big Steve's advice. It felt better, both physically and psychologically.

I would be lying if I said I have never tried to "cheat" a bend by wrapping a single towel and then wringing it extremely tight. It made the bend feel much easier. I have also rolled up a nail in a very significant amount of leather to where the wrap was about 2" thick. The bend itself was rediculously easy because there was an additional inch of leverage on each side!

So using one wrap was both easier and harder? Clarify please.

I understand if we're talking thick leather but how bout just a small towel? Is it easier or is it harder it's got to be one or the other (or neither)...

It sounds like I am in the clear, after all I use a small relatively delicate (compared to leather and ballistic nylon) hand towel to wrap my bends. If I were cheating and trying to use my towel to gain all this extra leverage, wouldn't my towel rip in half as has been the experience of others here?

[Clay Edgin]

AP, twisting up one towel really tightly and using it to gain extra leverage on the nail made the bend easy, but using one towel wrapped normally and using my normal bending style was not as effective as using two towels.

[CMunger]

I always assumed the wrappign tightly was helping prevent slipping rather than adding leverage.

[3Crusher]

Mikael,

I am a Moderator, and I for one would really like to see what you have to post before it is removed. You are a very intelligent fellow who uses English more effectively as his second language than most people do as their first. I enjoy seeing your views, and understand your logical arguments of bending versus folding. You are a persistent fellow trying to bring out a point, but alas, to no avail. Many people keep attacking you without really thinking about the ideas you have posted. Meanwhile, you have organized some great contests, you are not an armchair theorist, you use your real name to post, and have put your reputation on the line in competition. Hats off to you, and keep fighting the good fight.

Steve Weiner

[Bill Piche]

I just saw this thread.

I am getting sick and tired of the "bending versus folding" argument OVER and OVER on these forums.

The title of this thread is "back to single wrap". How did it get into a style argument?

I have stated it before.

People bend with different styles. Everyone needs to respect that and move on.

If I need to institute a new rule for these forums on bending verus folding arguments I will.

Think about it. Do we argue the time over set versus no-set continuously? Do we argue continuously about pinch widths? Hand size? NO we do not.

People hi-jacking and disrupting threads with bending verus folding statements will be given 3 strikes and then removed from these forums.

Maybe I ought to open a Bending Verus Folding Forum and just let people go at each other rather than disrupting this forum. They can "fight" and have "wars" there. Sounds great eh?

[Drassk]

That might be a decent idea, Wanna. And I'm not even kidding. I eagerly read through every one of the threads that turns into a bending/folding debate. I think that if there's anywhere where it should happen, it's on the GripBoard.

I agree that maybe there should be a separate forum for debates, maybe even an unmoderated one (gasp!), because they're an important part of refining what we know.

[Big Steve]

Yawn! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz It is just a steel bar.

[Jedd Johnson]

Mikael,

I am a Moderator, and I for one would really like to see what you have to post before it is removed. You are a very intelligent fellow who uses English more effectively as his second language than most people do as their first. I enjoy seeing your views, and understand your logical arguments of bending versus folding. You are a persistent fellow trying to bring out a point, but alas, to no avail. Many people keeps attacking you without really thinking about the ideas you have posted. Meanwhile, you have organized some great contests, you are not an armchair theorist, you use your real name to post, and have put your reputation on the line in competition. Hats off to you, and keep fighting the good fight.

Steve Weiner

I echo this.

-Jedd-