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New #4 Close (cracked The Handles Together)


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#121 OFFLINE   jvance

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 10:21 PM

 

I was referring to Paul's request to cert in August which appears to have been derailed. I wasn't suggesting that he attempt to cert today/tomorrow or whatever, merely that he should be allowed to proceed as planned in August if he so chooses.

 

 

My point being you never know how hard the gripper from IM is going to be. IM makes excellent grippers...and happens to be the only brand that I have personally purchased (though I own HG, RB, and BB)...I did not intend to suggest that the quality of the product is poor. I only meant that it is a standard fact that grippers vary, and it's a roll of the dice. A Cannon rated #205 is a stout #4, so if Paul feels like he can CCS that by August, I say give him the green light to make his dream happen.

 

From what I've seen, Paul has "mastered the gripper" to the point that he knows what level he expects to be at. It sounds like the answer to both of my questions is "No, we will not let him attempt the certification." This leads me to the conclusion that, rather than Paul stepping down for fear of failing the certification attempt, IM has persuaded him to delay.

 

Given how beastly this feat is, I have a bad taste in my mouth about doing anything to sidetrack his plan to certify in August since he seems to be the one with the best shot of actually certifying with these rules.

How'd he'd get sidetracked?  He's not ready—when he it, he'll get his shot.

 

It seems like we're going around in circles on this and the whole thing could hardly be simpler: Paul is not ready now and when he is, he should request a shot at getting certified and he will get it.  It's really just that simple.

 

Back on the comment about not knowing how hard a gripper to expect from IronMind, I think that's balderdash—you can RGC grippers until the cows come home and the better you get at it, the better you will understand a) that's not the be-all end-all in terms of describing what a gripper feels like to be closed and b) Captains of Crush grippers are more accurate than most of the plates most guy (don't) lift or just about anything else they take at face value every day—the temperature on their thermometers, the size of the 2 x 4 holding up their houses, the width of their shoes, the actual amount of beer in their pint, etc.  

 

Get real on this stuff and quit wasting your time looking for monsters under the bed each time the lights go out.

 

 

Actually there is quite a difference; from the tough 3s i have closed - all the way to the easy ones.  The RGC consistently corroborates what I feel is a distinct difference in feel between these grippers. 

 

While the majority of these grippers stay around the same baseline (150ish for a 3) some of them do vary greatly in RCG strength as well as corresponding feel.  No, there are no monsters under my bed :)  

 

 

I think Paul should get a shot at the 4; it seems he has planned it out much like a powerlifter would in an attempt at a world record.  I doubt they consistently master their PR weight before peaking and attempting.  Also, his YT channel has a myriad of evidence of his crush strength.  The CCS will be close - no doubt... but I think he can close it based on what I've watched from him.


Edited by jvance, 14 June 2013 - 10:35 PM.


#122 OFFLINE   Mike Sharkey

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 11:25 PM

My 2 cents: cert the 3.5 on the way. Leave no doubt. I'm a bender. Our legend is Gazza. We don't talk about him because there is mystery. I'm more philosph than athlete, but the extremes of human capability interest me. I very much like to know what they are.

Edited by Mike Sharkey, 14 June 2013 - 11:26 PM.


#123 OFFLINE   gm1swm

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 11:05 PM

 

 

Get real on this stuff and quit wasting your time looking for monsters under the bed each time the lights go out.

 

 

I spit my drink all over my computer when I read this...



#124 OFFLINE   Geralt

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 02:12 AM

Anyway, Paul did a strong close. We're all together on that.  :flowers:



#125 OFFLINE   jvance

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 07:06 AM

 

 
Get real on this stuff and quit wasting your time looking for monsters under the bed each time the lights go out.
 

 
I spit my drink all over my computer when I read this...  

 

 

@gm1swm: I know right.. I didn't take it too well. It's disrespectful to the grip community given our reliance on RGC for contest scoring and ranking. Many of these grippers have also been cross-calibrated with the same results - it's very accurate and very telling.



#126 OFFLINE   anwnate

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 02:17 PM

 

Excuse my ignorance, but at the Top Level, doesn't everyone do some sort of "periodization" or a very thought-put schedule that has them "peak" in strength towards a certain date? (which usually coincedes with the date of a Contest, Meet, or whatever it's called). (Sorry, english is not my main language).

 

So in order to cert on the #4, you can't really train and Peak for it... you have to remain at that level of strength for a long period of time? Wow, this feat is remarkably tough!

Arturo -

 

I think this is a very good question and a situation well worth considering, but when Bill or TJJ or Chez or anyone else certified on the Captains of Crush No. 3 gripper, it was not a tight-wire balancing act for them—they had the juice to crush the gripper on demand.  Yes, they could still have had a bad day, but the important thing is that they were not at the point where they had to bank on having a spectacular day in order to succeed.

 

It's the same process with the Captains of Crush No. 4, only the bar is higher.  

 

At the 2004 World's Strongest Man contest, Magnus Samuelsson told me, "I have lost my fear of the No. 4," which literally stopped me in my tracks because I knew he'd hit a level of achievement on this gripper that was beyond anyone I knew of.  Magnus would pick up a CoC No. 4 on demand,—not fiddling around positioning it this way or that, not starting from a deep set that made a mockery of this traditional test of strength—and then he did the vital part: he crushed the snot out of the thing. 

 

 

Initially, I only had an issue with the bold text, as remaining video evidence on youtube does not support this assertion.

 

MS uses what appears to be a deepset and obscured close.  If MS could do as purported...it was with a much different #4.

 

 

Upon reading it again, the following text jumped out at me.  " which literally stopped me in my tracks because I knew he'd hit a level of achievement on this gripper that was beyond anyone I knew of."

 

This is an odd thing to say considering the constant communication between IM and Joe Kinney five years earlier.

 

Especially since it culminated in a documented video close that makes even Holle's GHP9 set and close seem labored.

 

Back to the thread...Nice close Paul.


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#127 OFFLINE   jmatney

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 04:01 PM

 

 

Excuse my ignorance, but at the Top Level, doesn't everyone do some sort of "periodization" or a very thought-put schedule that has them "peak" in strength towards a certain date? (which usually coincedes with the date of a Contest, Meet, or whatever it's called). (Sorry, english is not my main language).

 

So in order to cert on the #4, you can't really train and Peak for it... you have to remain at that level of strength for a long period of time? Wow, this feat is remarkably tough!

Arturo -

 

I think this is a very good question and a situation well worth considering, but when Bill or TJJ or Chez or anyone else certified on the Captains of Crush No. 3 gripper, it was not a tight-wire balancing act for them—they had the juice to crush the gripper on demand.  Yes, they could still have had a bad day, but the important thing is that they were not at the point where they had to bank on having a spectacular day in order to succeed.

 

It's the same process with the Captains of Crush No. 4, only the bar is higher.  

 

At the 2004 World's Strongest Man contest, Magnus Samuelsson told me, "I have lost my fear of the No. 4," which literally stopped me in my tracks because I knew he'd hit a level of achievement on this gripper that was beyond anyone I knew of.  Magnus would pick up a CoC No. 4 on demand,—not fiddling around positioning it this way or that, not starting from a deep set that made a mockery of this traditional test of strength—and then he did the vital part: he crushed the snot out of the thing. 

 

 

Initially, I only had an issue with the bold text, as remaining video evidence on youtube does not support this assertion.

 

MS uses what appears to be a deepset and obscured close.  If MS could do as purported...it was with a much different #4.

 

agreed on this. the popular video of Magnus closing a new #4 is inconclusive at very best. a deep set is used, and his hands are so big and in such an awkward position that it's impossible to even see the gripper, let alone determine if it is closed. (from what I understand, this was one of the obstacles in his certification, the fact that his hands are so big that it was difficult to determine if the gripper was closed.)

 

not that this takes away from the fact that he's probably one of the strongest men who ever lived, or that he did at one time close a new #4 under the old rules.


Edited by jmatney, 16 June 2013 - 04:02 PM.


#128 OFFLINE   Ivarboneless

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 07:36 AM

I thought perhaps I had misread the topic since I apparently was mistaken about what was occurring.

 

To quote Paul: "Ok so finally got confirmation on exactly what's happening with the cert and to my surprise, my request has been rejected."

 

Sounds exactly like what I thought. It appears from this text that he is being denied his August date. I am not in support of the rejection in this case. That is being derailed in my eyes. As Arturo and several others have mentioned, peaking is a common practice in the strength world.

 

The reason that the same stuff appears to get asked over and over is because the basic questions aren't being answered. For example, my original two questions were never given a straight answer, they were traversed. I repeat the questions:

 

If Paul said "Yeah, I'm ready to do the certification," would you let him? Suppose he said "I have never closed a #4 with a credit card set, but I will be able to by the certification date, and I want to proceed with the certification." Would you allow him to attempt the certification?

 

It seems like the answer to those questions is "no." So, it appears that Paul is being denied the ability to peak and attempt the gripper in August like he wanted (ie derailed)...and my own opinion of that is negative. That is all. That seems straightforward and logical to me. I'm entitled to my opinion, and I believe I've interpreted the situation correctly, so enough of trying to make me feel like I can't read the topic and don't understand the responses.

 

 

 

Further, it is a fact that IM and all other brands of grippers vary. Many people who own two of the same # of gripper (e.g., two IM #3's) could tell that without even calibrating the grippers. Trying to dodge that fact is just foolish. The cat got out of the bag on that a long time ago...about the time that I put the boogie man in a sleeper hold and sent him to live under a different bed.



#129 OFFLINE   EricMilfeld

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 11:47 AM

 

Further, it is a fact that IM and all other brands of grippers vary. Many people who own two of the same # of gripper (e.g., two IM #3's) could tell that without even calibrating the grippers. Trying to dodge that fact is just foolish. The cat got out of the bag on that a long time ago...about the time that I put the boogie man in a sleeper hold and sent him to live under a different bed.

 

Priceless!



#130 OFFLINE   Paul Savage

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 12:06 PM

 

 

Further, it is a fact that IM and all other brands of grippers vary. Many people who own two of the same # of gripper (e.g., two IM #3's) could tell that without even calibrating the grippers. Trying to dodge that fact is just foolish. The cat got out of the bag on that a long time ago...about the time that I put the boogie man in a sleeper hold and sent him to live under a different bed.

 

Priceless!

 

Yeah, i can understand being protective of the brand etc but nobody is saying anything is wrong with Ironmind or questioning the grippers quality, it's just a fact. These are extreme cases but the lowest 4 rgc i can recall of iswas 3.6 and I've felt one that would fall inbetween my BBP and BBWC which would be somewhere around a COC #5. That would be what, 130lb difference as far as ironmind rating goes?? I trust my hand more than i trust rgc but whichever way you go about it, they vary.



#131 OFFLINE   wvhills

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Posted 17 June 2013 - 07:41 PM

This is my take on things. When I contacted IronMind about certifying on the 3, I was asked how many times I had closed a 3 prior to contacting them. I informed them that I could close a number 3 on demand, at any time, using their guidelines for what constitutes a legit close. They accepted my request and set me up with a ref without any further inquiry. I can probably no set close a WEAK 3.5 on a good day, am I ready for a certification?? No, not at all. Now, I am no where near the grip athlete Paul is, he is VERY STRONG...but can Paul close any 4 using a CCS at any given time? This is what IronMind is looking for before they move forward with a certification.


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#132 OFFLINE   anwnate

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 04:54 AM

This is my take on things. When I contacted IronMind about certifying on the 3, I was asked how many times I had closed a 3 prior to contacting them. I informed them that I could close a number 3 on demand, at any time, using their guidelines for what constitutes a legit close. They accepted my request and set me up with a ref without any further inquiry. I can probably no set close a WEAK 3.5 on a good day, am I ready for a certification?? No, not at all. Now, I am no where near the grip athlete Paul is, he is VERY STRONG...but can Paul close any 4 using a CCS at any given time? This is what IronMind is looking for before they move forward with a certification.

 

Possibly this is what they do now...but it seems to me that Ioan Puscasu was afforded an attempt without said mastery of the #4 (at least TWICE).

 

With the "possible" exception of Nathan Holle, no one in the world can CCS a #4 at any given time.

 

All in all, this is kind of silly.  Paul is over the top strong and should sign up for a #3.5 cert, BUT... they should send both grippers.  

 

Paul does his warmup by certing the #3.5 and then does his #4 attempt.  

 

Unless Paul is super borderline to begin with, I doubt that a #3.5 close will prevent a #4 cert.

 

http://www.ironmind....sh_Gripper.html

 

http://www.ironmind...._4_Gripper.html


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#133 OFFLINE   Paul Savage

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 05:43 AM

From what i've been told/understand it's the other way around, he said he was ready via the rules etc and they gave him a shot after him saying this and a strong performance on the 3.5. It was only 1 official attempt though. I don't think it's silly, they are simply standing by the rules they set out, which i feel we should respect.

As for me, i may or may not do the other grippers, have gone back and forth on the idea. Of course yes a 3.5 close is not going to make much difference if your dominating a 4, but you never know what level of gripper your going to get and it would be pretty crushing mentally to be labeled as a 3.5 closer if you were dominating an average 4.

#134 OFFLINE   anwnate

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 06:07 AM

From what i've been told/understand it's the other way around, he said he was ready via the rules etc and they gave him a shot after him saying this and a strong performance on the 3.5. It was only 1 official attempt though. I don't think it's silly, they are simply standing by the rules they set out, which i feel we should respect.

As for me, i may or may not do the other grippers, have gone back and forth on the idea. Of course yes a 3.5 close is not going to make much difference if your dominating a 4, but you never know what level of gripper your going to get and it would be pretty crushing mentally to be labeled as a 3.5 closer if you were dominating an average 4.

 

Ah...my comment stemmed from the hubub regarding this.  I'm in agreement that rules are rules and should be respected.

 

From the article I linked, I was led to believe that at Ioan's #3.5 certification, IM Referee Bill Collins offered him a opportunity to close the #4 and he missed.  Although it does not specifically state that this was a new #4, I believe this to be implied.  That would make the 1st of 2 official attempts.  Anyone privy to that specific info, is welcomed to speak up.

 

I can imagine it would be crushing blow to fail on the #4, and have to join a list with only 12 others in the world. ;) It's an interesting perspective, but if you get hit by a truck tomorrow, you will go down in history as someone who "might" have certified on an IM list.  A more likely scenario for a #4 chaser is that they get injured and never get an opportunity to cert.

 

But again...heck of a close.


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#135 OFFLINE   slazbob

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 12:02 PM

Even tho he was a fake, did silverback have an official cert in place for the Arnold classic?

This is a negative thread towards Ironmind.... It always comes back to gripper variance, or them screwing someone.

I think accomplishing the goal is first, then you make it official by certifying. They don't give you a drivers license because you read the book... They don't set up certs if you can't do it.

#136 OFFLINE   Bearcat 74

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 12:09 PM

Even tho he was a fake, did silverback have an official cert in place for the Arnold classic?

This is a negative thread towards Ironmind.... It always comes back to gripper variance, or them screwing someone.

I think accomplishing the goal is first, then you make it official by certifying. They don't give you a drivers license because you read the book... They don't set up certs if you can't do it.

 

 

Nothing negative about gripper variance, just a fact, they all vary no matter who makes them.  I do agree that you have to accomplish the goal and be proficient at it before attempting or setting up a cert, otherwise you are out your time and the company is out time and money.



#137 OFFLINE   slazbob

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 12:38 PM

Well, yeah, you can't get them perfect... But I like the way they are. You just can't bring it in to the fight with Randy EVERYTIME - maybe stand on another leg for once.

Ironmind is going by their rules, and that may rain on Paul's parade, but its for the good of this process. He was asking for a cert a little bit back when he wasn't even doing what he can do now.
For some to say Randall is derailing Paul, is shenanigans. Paul is the one setting himself up for this. And some are falling for it.

#138 OFFLINE   wvhills

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 12:40 PM


From the article I linked, I was led to believe that at Ioan's #3.5 certification, IM Referee Bill Collins offered him a opportunity to close the #4 and he missed.  Although it does not specifically state that this was a new #4, I believe this to be implied.  That would make the 1st of 2 official attempts.  Anyone privy to that specific info, is welcomed to speak up.

 

 

My Referee had a new unopened 3.5 with him and offered me the opportunity to attempt the 3.5 cert immediately after I certed the 3, I declined because I knew that it wasn't possible.



#139 OFFLINE   Paul Savage

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 01:14 PM

Well, yeah, you can't get them perfect... But I like the way they are. You just can't bring it in to the fight with Randy EVERYTIME - maybe stand on another leg for once.

Ironmind is going by their rules, and that may rain on Paul's parade, but its for the good of this process. He was asking for a cert a little bit back when he wasn't even doing what he can do now.
For some to say Randall is derailing Paul, is shenanigans. Paul is the one setting himself up for this. And some are falling for it.

I'm not sure i understand what your saying? I discussed a possible cert for end of last year, I'd got my medium #4 (about 207lb rgc) to 1mm ccs prior to this, i then asked for a cert in may of this year for bodypower expo, both of these plans ended up going to nothing for reasons that were out of my control. Following this i said august (simply the next time i had off work). As i have previously stated, it was my fault for not knowing the rules. For whatever reason my thoughts were that they preferred you do the gripper multiple times before but i didn't realize it was actually in the rules of closing. I guess i'd never heard of anyone being turned down a cert. Also i, foolishly it would seem, thought Tex Henderson had attempted the 4 cert, as well as Ioan 3 times as seen on youtube videos, when they hadn't mastered the gripper. Reality was far different. If i was aware of the rules prior i would never have requested a cert.



#140 OFFLINE   slazbob

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 01:26 PM

Okay Paul. Fair enough. Just saw where Randall wasn't the bad guy here, just wasn't time yet. I'm sure you'll get it soon.