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World Class Feats? Who Decides?


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#1 OFFLINE   Mighty Joe

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:18 PM

Curious here!

 

According to GB rule #2 which states: 2. World Class feats must be supported with video evidence. Posts without proof will be locked until proof is provided.

 

My question(s) is/are what constitutes a World Class feat and who makes this decision? If this is to mean World Class Grip Feats? If so, then how would one decide being there's no World Championships in Grip? For example, in AWing there's a WAF World Championships that represents any and all countries that participate. If you win this title you are considered World Class without question!

 

First, the obvious. Yes! This is Bill's forum and he can make any rules he chooses but outside of GB rules what

would one consider a World Class Grip Feat and why without any criteria whatsoever to make this determination?

 

Before anyone asks me if closing a #4 is a World Class Grip Feat please tell me how you came to this determination and what criteria you followed and/or used to come to your conclusion. ;)

 

Anyone? :)



#2 OFFLINE   Stephen Ruby

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:43 PM

Maybe about 90% of w/e the best lift in the world is for that event?  Guess would depend on the event though and hand size effects some events.   

 

Example would be the two hand pinch lift.  The best lift is 270lbs so 90% of that is 243.  That would be top 10 for the two hand pinch according to http://www.gripsport...l&measurement=1

 

 



#3 OFFLINE   Mikael Siversson

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Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:58 PM

One would also need to consider gender and bodyweight. A 120lbs teenage girl closing a #3 is a lot more impressive imo than a 300lbs strongman closing a #4. Not that we know of any girls closing #3's but yes outright max strength is not enough as a measure of world class in my view.


Edited by Mikael Siversson, 27 April 2013 - 10:58 PM.


#4 OFFLINE   Jedd Johnson

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 04:29 AM

The rule was put into effect back in about 2003 because people would come on here and make statements and then a bunch of bickering, name calling and all that other stuff would ensure.  The moderators are people wit families and jobs.  We don't want to have to patrol the board for stupid arguments.  At the time, there was too much of that crap, so there was a rule put up about it.

 

Keep in mind, this was back when YouTube didn't exist and it was damn near impossible to put a video up on line, so people could say something and never put up a video and actually have an excuse.

 

But, knowing this, people could also make a statement and watch everyone else get bent out of shape.

 

As to what's World Class, it's a judgment call to keep things from getting out of hand.  The times I can remember posts even getting locked were all around gripper closing statements.

 

And I'd say it's been years since I even remember the rules used.

 

Hope this helps.



#5 ONLINE   barbe705

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 06:02 AM

it's like the supreme court and pornography.  I can't define it but, I know it when I see it.


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#6 OFFLINE   climber511

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 06:36 AM

What’s not bad, OK, good, better, Wow, and World Class is all in the eye of the beholder.  And things have certainly changed in the decade I have been in grip.  Back in 2003 “proof” was still pictures – You Tube etc may have been around but I was unaware of it.  Closing a COC #3 or lifting a “Blob” was a really big deal and competitions were few and far between.  So claims were being made and when challenged, the people would just kind of disappear or a big back and forth troll war kind of thing would take up everyone’s time for a few days – a real pain in the butt especially if it ended up the guy making the claims may not have even existed except on a keyboard.  More than a few doctored photos went the rounds – I had no idea how easy that was until my son showed me.  So some rules came to the GB about claims and proof.

 

There weren’t very many people who had even tried many of the things we got all excited about as feats of strength.  Things are different today, grip certainly isn’t main stream but Blobs, #3s, Axle lifts, etc are pretty well known in most gym settings today – and lots more people have tried their hand at them – many with success upon their first experience with them.  So at least in my mind what I used to see as World Class has changed.

 

The difference between this and AW in my mind is that Grip is about “things” – closing a particular gripper, lifting a certain weight on an Axle, a certain block weight etc – these can all be used as a measurement for consideration for what is World Class.  Oh sure we have contests and go head to head with each other but it’s still all measured in “things” that in most cases are available all over the world.

 

Arm Wrestling is man to man and doesn’t really have “things” one can do here or across the world to act as ways of comparison.  To know how I might compare to another “man” I have to actually grab his hand across a table and find out.  So comparing AW to Grip is hard to do.  The Gripper I close here in Ohio is going to be very similar to the one a guy in Russia closes. 

What is World Class?  I think it changes all the time, what used to be the “best” is now common place as the bar continues to rise all the time.  What is still “darn good” isn’t changing much though, closing a #3, pinching 2-45s, 3-25s, 5-10s, etc etc is still pretty darn strong for a normal guy.  I once told Randall Strossen that “grip is the last bastion for a “normal” guy” and even that is not going to be true much longer if it really is today still.  As the 3 and 400# professional Strongmen and guys who are training their grip in a very serious manner etc get involved doing what we have been doing, things are going to change quickly.  For a guy like Brian Shaw etc with a hand twice as big as average, lifting a normal “Blob” is like lifting a toy.  If you have an 800# DL and 9” hands, what is a good Axle DL anyway?  Saying that lifting a certain percentage (say 90% maybe) of the WR can be problematic and everyone is going to believe in a different definition of where the World Class line should be drawn.  I think we are going to see things lifted in the future that are not even considered today – but much of this will be size dependant to an extreme.  If we look back at history and then look at Grip today, it is fair to say it will follow the same path as Olympic lifting etc as to progress over time.  Or will it?


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#7 OFFLINE   Mighty Joe

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 08:00 AM

Thanks for the great replies here!!!

 

Now that I know why the rule was put in place (Thanks Jedd) I can make some sense out of it now.

 

Mikael, I agree with you on gender and BW being considerations! Great point!

 

Brent, your response was funny at first but after just a moments thought it kind of rang true! Thanks for

stating things in a simple way!

 

Chris, I certainly appreciate you taking the time to write such a great response and one that is so true today!

I know what you speak of when back in the days when I first started a picture was not only accepted but is was

like gold. One could also take someones word on certain claims but this simply is not the case any longer. The bad

news is with technology raising the bar every day you can bet that any day now there will be ways to alter videos just

as easily as pics if it isn't already available as we speak.

 

The best part of your response was concerning strongman competitors now training grip. I too believe this is about to change what we call World Class, Elite, etc... All the standards are about to change! I now believe that 300+ will be possible on the 2HP! I also believe that 3-45's pinched with one hand and raised to full DL position is within the realm of possible now.

A #4 close with credit card set? Again, once guys like Brian Shaw start getting serious in training grip this too will become as normal as someone lifting a Blob50. No? Time will tell!

 

To answer my own question, how can one know a World Class Grip Feat? You'll know it when you see it if you have an idea of what's taking place. Can one look to books such as "The Super Athletes" by Willoughby and make this determination? I don't believe so due to what you said Chris. What used to be considered WC is now a common feat and many of the feats in Willoughby's book have been surpassed or equaled today.

 

I guess one would need to be cautious before placing a World Class stamp on a grip feat because within a small

time frame that same feat may become fairly common. Best examples being closing a #3 and lifting a Blob50 now being

considered strong but not even close to WC. Then again as Mikael pointed out gender and body weight should be considered as well. Closing a #3 coming from a 130 lb. female could be considered WC with gender and BW taken in to consideration.

 

Great conversation going here!!!

 

Anyone else???

 

Thanks again guys!!! :mosher


Edited by Mighty Joe, 28 April 2013 - 08:01 AM.


#8 OFFLINE   Jedd Johnson

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 08:20 AM

Joe, why is it only now you believe 300 is possible on the 2HP?



#9 OFFLINE   The Mac

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 08:24 AM

Not much to add to the responses already given but I would like to say that this rule, and the movement towards getting it implemented, has been one of the most positive things I've seen with regards to keeping this place a positive factor in the growth of grip both as an activity and as a community. 



#10 OFFLINE   jvance

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 08:55 AM

Wow, what an awesome thread.  

 

Joe, not sure if guys like Shaw and Burke are just now starting to work on grip... they have obviously been training the whole range to include grip for many years - I don't think they just suddenly discovered the feats.  However, there may just be another freak of a strongman down the road that can do those feats; 300# 2hp/3-45s pinch - but it may not be in our lifetimes.  In the near term, I don't believe it is possible to attain at this point in time.  

 

I have the privilege of training with WR holder Kody Burns who can consistently pull 260+ in training to full lockout and pinches 2 45s like they are made of styrofoam.  What is more amazing than witnessing all this on a regular basis is knowing how quickly he jumped through the ranks to the top.  What many people don't realize about Kody is that he's been training grip for a very long time off and on...  

 

I think my point is that I don't believe any gifted strongman is just going to wake up one day and try grip out and blow away all the "industry standards".... It is going to take considerable time, and someone with the perfect storm of physical attributes; frame size, genetics, and heart + plus smart and focused training and recovery, before we see any one individual take it to the next level across the board in all aspects of gripsport (pinch, crush, support, and bending).  As for the 2hp, I still think 250+ is still the standard for freakish... there are only a handful of guys in the world who can pull that much and they all have been training that event for many years - I think 300 is damn near untouchable for now.



#11 OFFLINE   Mighty Joe

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 09:23 AM

Joe, why is it only now you believe 300 is possible on the 2HP?

Mainly due to Brain Shaw's pinching feats just recently displayed.

 

I heard Paul Knight say with my own ears that it would be impossible to lift a Legacy 50

with the thumb on the bulged side. Now you have Brian Shaw upping the game to an even

more impressive (otherwise thought impossible) blob.

 

Then you have guys like Denis Cheplenkov who seemingly has enormous strength in his hands

and I've been told by my Russian friends that his pinching strength is nearly unbelievable but yet

he's known for his AW'ing poweress and unknown for his grip strength.

 

IMO, I believe this generation will live to see a #300 2HP. Several years ago on a similar thread David Horne said

it would be quite some time before we witness a 260 2HP. Now you have a relative newcomer holding the current world record.

 

The biggest reason is the shear number of people walking around on the planet (7 billion+) and we assume that only a small percentage

of men can 2HP 250+ and label it freakish. I used to think this way as well but I now think differently.

 

I also don't agree 100% with jvance in that these guys have been training their grip for some time. My son Cody is a prime example

of which I know first hand because he lived with us most of his adult life until about a year ago. Cody doesn't train his grip by any stretch

of the imagination as what we would consider training grip. He simply tests his strength every now and then and it's always a notch up from his

previous test and at times by a large margin. I know of hardly anyone that has jumped nearly 10 lbs. on rated grippers in 5 weeks. Cody indeed has

done it and with not just myself as a witness. Did he train grippers? No! he tests himself every now and then and that's it folks. He just has grip strength! My other son, Shane in comparison he lifts weights on a regular basis as does Cody but his grip is nowhere near what Cody posses.

Cody trains like a bodybuilder. He doesn't train grippers. He doesn't train hubs. He doesn't train pinch yet his numbers are right up there with what

we are calling world class. Do we suggest his grip strength is from the carry over of his weight lifting? I would ask why my other son does not see similar results with his grip strength. You tell me! Lastly, I've begged Cody to train his grip on regular basis and he has no interest in training his grip. He simply tests his grip strength occasionally.

 

Great thread going here!!!



#12 OFFLINE   meduza

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Posted 28 April 2013 - 10:55 AM

Word Class is when you close number #4 from open position and grinding it and says "Can you hear it? "Well what a grip on that guy."


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#13 OFFLINE   Mikael Siversson

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:20 PM

A 300lbs 2HP in competition is very achievable I think. All it takes is someone with a similar build etc as Kody but weighing 300lb instead of 200lbs (i.e., a scaled-up version of Kody). Kody indicated what it will take to be dominant in the 2HP within a weight class, a tall and lean physique without huge quads etc that would only push you up into the next higher weight class. This year the WR in the 2HP in the 74k class will increase dramatically as two of us with that type of body (tall and lean relative to the weight class) are shedding fat in order maximise our grip strength for a given weight class. Soon the times are over for people out of shape (as in carrying excess body fat) dominating any of the lighter weight classes in grip. Much like in MMA these days where guys in the lighter weight classes are typically very lean.


Edited by Mikael Siversson, 29 April 2013 - 05:33 PM.


#14 OFFLINE   Electron

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:19 PM

Speaking of 2HP, was wondering if Mike B. is still training with you, Eric.
He did well over bodyweight in the lift and beat me out despite my more lean and long body.
I'd say that the 59k will see some big increases in every lift, as more people get competitive.

#15 OFFLINE   Mikael Siversson

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:45 PM

There will be exceptions to that rule but there is certainly a clear trend in the 2HP (and 1HP). Both Eric (WR holder in the 83k class) and Kody (WR holder in the 93k and all classes above) are tall relative to their competitors in their weight classes from my understanding. I think we will see the same in the 74k class this year. In general, everything is larger on someone with a large frame but lean body (tendons, attachment surfaces etc.).

 

Other events (axle) are dependant on hand size (to some degree) and back strength (as some are limited by their deadlifting ability) within a given weight class.



#16 OFFLINE   mudhutmasher

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 09:55 PM

Eric has also done some elite deadlifting at a light bw in his day.. I wouldnt at all be surprised if he ends up pulling 350+ on the axle in the 74 class

#17 OFFLINE   Mikael Siversson

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 10:37 PM

I am going to be perfectly honest in saying that I doubt he will actually manage to get down to 74k in time for the Nationals (and still have enough energy to remain standing). We will see.

 

Both Eric and myself will be limited by our grip strength in the axle at 74k (I have done 265k in the deadlift in the old 90k class in IPF competition). Eric is much better than me in the axel lift though.


Edited by Mikael Siversson, 29 April 2013 - 10:38 PM.


#18 OFFLINE   EricMilfeld

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 12:55 AM

Yori, Mike has not been by to train since before the Show of Hands.  He could be training with some other guys, though.  Haven't heard.

 

Mikael, your prediction is quite reasonable.  I've never failed to make weight for a contest in the 30+ years I've been competing, but that's not to say I've never lost more strength than I anticipated.  Yes, I will certainly be weaker than I am today come June 1st, but by how much is the question.  I would be thrilled to lose only 5% of my grip strength.  Out of curiosity, what would you realistically expect me to lose in grip strength?



#19 OFFLINE   Cannon

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 05:53 AM

Eric has also done some elite deadlifting at a light bw in his day.. I wouldnt at all be surprised if he ends up pulling 350+ on the axle in the 74 class

 

:ohmy



#20 OFFLINE   Mikael Siversson

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 05:57 AM

Eric, cutting down to 74k at 45-ish is not the same as cutting down to that weight when you are in your 20ies or 30ies. I hope you make the weight though although you would most likely be in a better shape if you had aimed for the 74k class in say 6 months.

 

How much grip strength you would loose would, I am speculating, depend on two factors: (1) your body fat percentage at 74k and; (2) how fast you are shedding your weight.

 

I think it is quite clear that, as you admit yourself, you are cutting down faster than is the ideal rate of weight loss. If you are very lean at say 77k then yes I think you would loose considerable amount of strength everywhere as you start to use up your non-fat tissue for fuel. A bit like getting ready for a bodybuilding competition where you loose strength and also get injured much easier.

 

I would be very surprised if you equal your 2HP WR in the 83k class (97.5) and would expect a result closer to 90k. This estimate is based on the assumption that you have a build similar to mine. From memory I think your are two inches taller than me and I will be lean but not super cut at 74k. If on the other hand you carry less muscle relatively speaking than I do so that you are not super cut at 74k then I think you will loose less and maybe do 95k or thereabouts. Just make sure you don't bomb out.


Edited by Mikael Siversson, 30 April 2013 - 05:59 AM.